posted on January 18, 2002 09:43:23 AM new
Like many users in this forum, I arrived here after hitting the brick wall that is PayPal customer services.
However I am not going to go into detail about my experience in this
thread, I will post another thread for that.
Instead I would like to open a general discussion about PayPal, where its been ? , where its going ? and what about
the competition ?
As the owner of 2 successful online businesses I can see the future potential of PayPal and how it can benefit my business, however so far from my experience I also have some pretty big reservations. I need to make long term plans for my businesses and decide how much time and money to invest in incorporating solutions like PayPal into my business.
PayPal is easy to use PayPal can be more secure than using a CC (Buyers dont have to give their CC details to everyone) 12,000,000 Potential Buyers
No matter what problems PayPal have they were there first and so far they have the monopoly. Their product is superior. If it wasn't then Billpoint would have finished them along time ago.
C2it look like a promising contender, or do they ? They are backed by Citibank which goes in their favour but do they have a comparable product ? Not yet.
Is there room for many P2P processors ? I don't think so. The success of any processor is proportional to their user base. You need both buyers and sellers to make it work. It's a chicken and the egg scenario you won't get the buyers until the sellers accept the Payments and the sellers wont invest in accepting the payments until the amount of potential buyers warrants it.
OK, So here's a question. Why can't I pay for a hard disk from Buy.com with PayPal ? You would think that 12 million user base would have all the big e-businesses queueing up to accept PayPal payments. Why are they staying away ? If my experience is anything to go by I am not surprised. I first came across
the "PayPal Problem" in June, as a result PayPal missed out on a large amount of business I had planned
for them. Does PayPal not want big business ?
Unlike many of the users in this forum, I really want PayPal to sort out their problems. My business needs
PayPal as much as PayPal needs my business. So I postponed all "PayPal Plans" for 12 months to see how things
panned out. Maybe PayPal would sort out their teething problems, maybe a competitor would emerge.
7 months on and my hopes are dashed, our PayPal account frozen once again.
So what is the problem ? Why do I not have these issues with my Banks
? or my Merchant Accounts ?
There are 3 main problems that I can see.
1) PayPal is a young company, running a completely new payment system. Is it any wonder they have problems
2) PayPal Customer Services, Even when I take into consideration the fact that many e-businesses have less
than satisfactory customer service, PayPal has to be the most unpleasant experience I have had online so far.
Nothing online has insulted and angered me quite so much as PayPal's customer service.
3) Fraud - Like many e-businesses PayPal has been hit hard by fraudulent activity, and understandably has to
fight this problem aggressively if it is to survive, but should this be used as an excuse to treat every user
as a criminal until proven innocent ?
The Solutions ?
Well that's why I started this thread, after reading through many of the user comments in this forum, I would
be surprised if Damon is able to subtract the "constructive criticism" from the "insults and legal threats"
We are PayPal's customers, they need us, no company in its right mind WANTS to lose customers, surely ?
Communication: Anyone who has had the misfortune to have to contact PayPal by e-mail or phone will know the problem
here. I'm not just talking about the 5+ days you have to wait for a reply, or the fact that 90% of the time you get
the impression that the service rep. hasn't even had the courtesy to read your original e-mail. What is even worse
than this ? In my opinion its what is said in that reply, its brash, arrogant, unsympathetic...do I need to go on ?
This understandably immediately angers the recipient who invariably replies with a similar "tone of voice", and the
problems escalate from there.
Customer Service: According to PayPals SEC submission they have 400 service reps handling 26,000 accounts each, if we
assume that they spend an average of 30 mins on each problem customer. Is that a fair assumption ?
250(working days) x 16(30 mins in 8 hour day) = 4,000 problem customers a year each = 10+ % of all their users are subjected to
their customer services every year. Can anyone who's taken a customer service course remind me, How many people does an average
person tell about their bad experience with a company ? 3 or 4 or maybe more with the ease we can do it now on the internet.
From my rough calculations and estimations , I would say that a VERY large number ( 4+ million ?) of PayPals users have either
been or know of someone who has had their accounts cancelled or their honesty and integrety questioned by PayPal.
So why does everyone still use them ? We have no choice, we know that , they know that, they are currently the only suppliers
of product we not only want but NEED for our businesses.
So what can they do ? Put up their prices and invest in customer services ? Thats my opinion at this stage, I would rather
pay more for the service and be confident that my business is not going to be disrupted. Perhaps if they are suffering from
as much fraud as it appears, they should charge a higher % unless you supply your DL, Bank Statement etc. This would at least
remove the need to do it later when a problem arises. If your an online business without a Merchant Account what other choice
do you have ? Pay 7.5%-10% plus a 10% holdback to companies like ClickBank, 2Checkout etc. These companies manage to give
the customer service we are all looking for because they charge more,
and at the same time they cover their risks. Is PayPal trying to hard ? Would you pay more if you knew you had the service ?
I certainly would.
So what can we do ? Well personally speaking I have already stated I believe my business would benefit from a good P2P Payment
Processor. But how do we as customers get this ? Well unless the
industry is regulated, competition is our only hope, maybe if other
P2P solutions are successful PayPal will be forced to come into line
with its users expectations ?
Remember if PayPal can sort themselves out, we'd all be better off. Wouldn't we ?
I am really interested to hear other users opinions on this subject ?
How can WE help ourselves in the long term ? Although interesting I don't believe the anti-paypal sites are the way to
get the point over, as businesses we want PayPal to succeed , we want them to increase their user bases, but we also want them to realize
that if they worked on their service a bit more, it would benefit everyone.
Regards
Daren
*The above are my own personal opinions of PayPal and the P2P Payment Industry as a whole. Estimates were made from assumptions
as well as actual SEC information submitted by PayPal, these assumumptions may well be incorrect, I am open to corrections.
posted on January 18, 2002 12:24:09 PM new
I wouldn't use PayPal again even if they were paying me to use it. They have flat out proved to me that they don't want or value my business, so to cyber hell with them.
posted on January 18, 2002 12:35:58 PM new
PayPal allows thieves to perpetrate frauds and keep their PayPal accounts open even after they have rock-solid proof. I'll never use them again. The entire fabric of the company is woven from lies and deception. Save yourself some time and do a search on PayPal and read the threads.
posted on January 18, 2002 07:42:02 PM new
I have used them since their inception and have found them to be of great service. I have had approx three issues with them over those years and each was handled to my satisfaction. That does not mean in my favor. 2 of the times I did not really like the outcome but looking at it rationaly I could understand the legality of it. You have to be aware that most on these board use it as a venue to complaind and have problems looked at by damon (as they should) If so many people where as unhappy as some would have you to think there would be about 12 million posts on here.
posted on January 18, 2002 09:53:48 PM new
Yeah, silly me. Paying a reasonable amount to a buyer who was PayPal Verified, and in good, positive standing in the auctions. Boy, what a jackass I am... should have saw that one coming.
I mean... he ONLY accepted PayPal. I should have KNOWN right there this guy was a fraud.
posted on January 19, 2002 12:37:46 AM new
I automatically assume any seller that only offers PayPal to be a fraud and since PayPal protects fraudulent sellers, I will never use them again.
posted on January 19, 2002 07:20:34 AM new
Paypal is good for transfering $10 - $30 between people? To get DC you need send parcel post or priority at least, to protect yourself if lost you need insurance, totals at least $5. Not very cost effective on small items.
dendude
posted on January 19, 2002 11:57:33 AM new
I wouldn't trust PayPal to transfer a nickel. They have proven to me that they are incapable of handling a problem professionally.
posted on January 20, 2002 07:50:04 PM newTMMamoru: How is paying via PP different than paying with personal check or MO? If you had paid via check, what would your bank do for you? NOTHING!
Mail Fraud is Mail Fraud -- the PO should help!
But you want PP to protect you! How? Charge you $10.00 everytime you would want to send a lousey $20.00 for a Beany Baby?
Internet auctions ARE a gamble! I bought a brand new P4 PC...I could have looked on eBay...
but, not in this life-time! I bought it at a B&M chain with a CREDIT CARD!
posted on January 20, 2002 09:31:58 PM new
However, internet auctions aren't as much of a gamble if people use credit cards, since they have protection. Its true that your bank wouldn't help you if you sent a check but your credit card company would if you used a credit card. PayPal encourages you to use a bank account or PayPal funds, so you're not protected. PayPal wants you to feel protected with all the verified, buyer complaint process, 12,000,000 users+, etc. so they won't have to deal with collecting the money from the seller if you don't receive you're goods. I'm not saying Billpoint is good, but at least they spell it out right on their front page: you are fully protected with a credit card, and only protected for 175 with your bank account through ebay's insurance.
posted on January 21, 2002 08:27:16 AM new
i wonder if cc issuer will start charging a fee to its customers for chargeback dispute.
i know the retailer has to pay a fee,but what about the customer?
all the postage stamps they use in sending out notices and forms and the staff they hire to handle chargeback??
that will remind the cardholder to be more careful in passing out their card info and better safeguard their cards.
i know some cardholders complain so they dont have to make payment while it is being investigated.
posted on January 21, 2002 08:35:55 AM new
Credit cards have to make it so you don't have to pay the charges in dispute, but some make you pay finance charges on them if you don't. In terms of fees to the customer for chargebacks, there are some situations where this might be a good idea. A buyer knows that if he files a dispute he has nothing to lose, and he knows the merchant might not even respond. Maybe if the buyer files a dispute based on non-recipt of goods, and then the seller produces proof of shipping, then maybe the buyer should get a fee. Or, if he files too many of quality of goods disputes, he should get a fee, and should be forced to return the item/mail it back before he even makes the dispute. That way, buyers who have no intention of frauding sellers wouldn't be hurt, yet people who do have that intention (making numerous quality of goods dispute or a non-recipt of goods dispute to avoid paying, etc.) would have something to lose.
posted on January 22, 2002 09:32:11 PM new
Hi andrew123s,
Buyers can file a Buyer Complaint for non-delivery even if they use echeck/balance payment. As a payment service, however, we can't guarantee recovery---we don't have control over what an indiviual lists at any web site.
Our BUYER COMPLAINT PROCESS alerts us to potential issues with sellers, but all it can check is if the seller followed the Seller Protection Program---it doesn't determine if a party is fraudulent, which means that the BUYER may have to seek recourse against the seller through other avenues. ***PayPal will comply with all legal requests for information on any party that is being accused of fraud. This will REQUIRE a subpoena.***
The best way to avoid issues? Do some due diligence on the party you are buying from. Our site, as well as many of the sites people buy from, do have SECURITY tips on how to avoid potentially problematic individuals.
posted on January 23, 2002 10:57:12 PM new
Tomwii: How is paying via PP different than paying with personal check or MO?
Simple. PayPal is operating as a buisness. I pay fees for that service. They have taken it upon themselves as a buisness that deals with money to properly verify their clients. They claim above all else to be a highly secure method of payment, and far safer than anything else out there (even going as far as printing misleading information, if not down downright lies about a so-called "protection policy" to the media.
My bank has never been so bold as to assure me that I had some magical blanket of protection. PayPal has.
posted on January 24, 2002 05:59:42 AM new
No where did they promise to protect you for the transaction behind the money transfer. Did the funds get where you 'sent' them?
posted on January 24, 2002 07:47:00 PM new
Really i think you cannot hold PayPal responsible for any issues regarding
the sales themselves, I realise they have "Protection" which doesn't appear
to live up to thier claims, but PayPal aren't alone in that area. "Clever Marketing"
and "Deception" are almost the same thing in business. You need to read the fine print.
PayPal is an "alternative" payment method, thats all. Just as you might hold up
a bank note to the light or confirm the signature on a check. You need to be careful
when using any form of payment , not just online payment. You have to allow for a certain
amount of fraudulent sales in your prices, and also allow for having your account frozen
for weeks in your business budgets, if you are to continue using PayPal.
Credit Card companies give you better protection because you pay them for it. The merhant
adds 3% to your price to cover his costs, then you pay x% on your outstanding balance. You
are effectively paying for the "insurance".
My new opinion of PayPal after my experience last year, and now the closure of our account
this year, is PayPal's competition will have no problem.
I put my short term money on C2it.com in US and Payhound.com in UK
Long term I think look to Mastercard and Visa, they will have to move with the times and they
have the experience to do it. They'll be watching the likes of PayPal closely, you can bet.
In the mean time, think about setting up your own merchant account or going through the likes of
ClickBank.com or 2Checkout.com.
Once you take into account your "Total Cost of Service". I would bet they are cheaper than PayPal
in the long term. And more importantly they supply a half decent customer service.
PayPal clearly have no idea how to run a successful business, and so appear to be doomed to failure.
posted on January 24, 2002 11:37:56 PM new
Hi TMMamoru,
Tomwii: How is paying via PP different than paying with personal check or MO?
Simple. PayPal is operating as a buisness. I pay fees for that service. They have taken it upon themselves as a buisness that deals with money to properly verify their clients. They claim above all else to be a highly secure method of payment, and far safer than anything else out there (even going as far as printing misleading information, if not down downright lies about a so-called "protection policy" to the media.
My bank has never been so bold as to assure me that I had some magical blanket of protection. PayPal has.
(You are paying fees when receiving payments, not when making them. Our Buyer Complaint Process does state that we can't guarantee recovery, but that you will be entitled to whatever we can recover from a seller not in compliance with Seller Protection. Please show me an epayment service (not an escrow service) that guarantees you will receive the product/service you order from an individual. I would also ask you to show me where a check/money order guarantees delivery of a product or service.)
You are ultimately responsible for:
-why you send a payment to someone
-what you send the payment for
-what factors you had in your decision to send the payment (feedback, reputation,etc.)
-how you send the payment
-where you bought the item from
PayPal has no say in these decisions. Our terms are quite clear about what we cover, as well as the limitations in place.
posted on January 25, 2002 10:09:51 AM new
Damon, you keep bringing up these guidelines on how to prevent fraud. I know they are helpful to new buyers, but it is not like they can always prevent it. I bought my laptop from a company with over 70 positive feedback, with 0 negatives. Their feedback rating went up to around 300, then for around the last 10 orders feedbacks have been left saying non-recipt of goods, company took the money and ran, doesn't respond to e-mails, etc. Someone who lived near the business actually went to the building and it was vacant, according to a feedback, which I am inclined to believe since his location is near where they live. I would have most certainly ordered something from this company again, until their negative feedbacks started coming in, and I would have gotten ripped off, even though their reputation at the time I would have purchased something was great, and I purchased a large item from them before without any problems.
While credit cards are not an e-payment service, they are not an escrow service and they do provide protection if you don't get the goods. Even if you use PayPal you still have to get the goods or you don't have to pay (when a credit card is used), even when there isn't enough money in the seller's account. The main reason people are having these problems is the fact that they use their bank account. While these payments are not completely irreversable, they provide no protection against not receiving your goods, etc (through the bank). However, you will only credit the buyer (through the issuing bank) if a credit card is used. Therefore, the only reason you ever help the buyer is when you are forced to by the issuing bank. You don't have in big letters on your front page that there is no protection for non-credit card payments unless the seller leaves the money sitting there. With billpoint, they have this right on their front page (they specifically say that you are fully protected with credit cards but only protected up to 175 with your bank account through insurance). There is really not a lot of difference between a credit card/bank account payment other than the source (the process of paying is the same), yet you don't help buyers who use bank accounts unless the seller leaves the money just sitting there in his PayPal account since you are not forced to by any financial institution.
posted on February 1, 2002 06:35:39 PM new
WEBDESIGNS
I'm not sure whether anyone else has pointed this out, but your opening post is one of the best-stated that I've seen with regards to the PayPal controversy.
You "hit the nail on the head" as they say.
I wish I shared your optimism--and your eloquence.
posted on February 1, 2002 09:09:01 PM new
the solution is not to buy anything you cannot afford to lose in a flea market.
ebay is a cyberflea market,anyone can sell.
rule number one-do not buy what you cannot afford to lose.rule number two-dont forget rule number one,
rule number three-do not forget rule number two.
posted on February 2, 2002 12:44:25 AM new
I don't know what the solution to the problem is (I wish I did), but is anyone else here sick of hearing damon regurgitate paypal's policies and procedures from his textbook? Ask him a real question, and he can't answer you, unless he can find it in his 'paypal bible'.
Paypal needs a new damage control freak... oops, I mean rep.
posted on February 2, 2002 06:38:01 AM new
one thing I never really understood with paypal and it seems logical it could solve alot of the problems with regards to fraud. When I receive a payment with Billpoint it provides me with all the payees details they have registered with Billpoint. With paypal people can hide these.
I never really understood why paypal cannot just do the same as billpoint makes sense.
Like alot of people on these boards I used paypal for over a year then once i encountered a problem i realized they are not the service people make them out to be. I still use them to purchase because least gives me the option of charge back with my credit card if i do get ripped off just DO NO LINK you bank account to them.
Then again logic, sense and paypal are not 3 words you would associate in one sentence.
posted on February 2, 2002 08:02:32 AM new
if you do not link your bank account ?
then you cant transfer fund from paypal to your bank account?
unless you just use it to send payment and not receive payment.
or you can ask for a check and pay a fee or use the debit card to spend it?
or just dont use paypal for large amount which you do not feel comfortable with/
posted on February 2, 2002 09:48:08 AM new
If you add the bank account, but do not confirm it, then you can deposit into it, but you can't withdraw from it.
when PP freezes the account for safety!