posted on January 19, 2002 12:11:47 AM new
I am getting completely screwed by paypal for $5000 in current orders and $33,000 in pending orders.
Paypal has restricted my account my business partners account and his daughters account...
We have been restricted because a old roommate of the business partners daughter had a paypal account and he owe paypal money. Since he used the computer at my business partners daughters house they have restricted all accounts that have been accessed from that isp and that includes 4 accounts totalling $38,160 dollars .
too make things worst the accounts were to be used for auction payments and now the buyers (13 of them) are emailing our business and wondering if we are fraudulent??
We are SquareTrade approved and Verified ID with ebay and have a perfect Billpoint record and perfect 100% feedback.
We have all sent in the restriction information needed to verify our accounts but they then replied with a note stating that we have outstanding balances owed on our OTHER accounts.
After waiting 48 minutes today on the phone I spoke with JOHN of the paypal dept and he said that they were going to forward the information to the investagator somewhere in california.
I didnt get a call, I have contacted paypal 27 times since last week both on email webform and telephone to get absolutely no remedy.
I now may have to go through the arbitrage system.
Please if anyone can help please forward any ideas or thoughts on this website,
Thanks below is my reply to the note they sent..
___________________________________
--- PayPal Customer Service <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Dear Mr. xxxxx,
>
> This email confirms that we have reviewed your fax.
> Your appeal is denied
> at this time for the following reason:
>
> 1) Your other PayPal accounts with negative balances
> will have to be payed
> back.
>
> If you have any further questions, please feel free
> to contact us again.
>
> Sincerely,
> PayPal Account Review Department
>
I do not have any negative balances in any accounts.
I now understand that you believe that an account from
a person Mxxxxxxx and ALxxxxx are related to me and my
daughter Ralxxx Txxxx, and my business partner Scott
xxxxxxxx.
We are not in anyway affiliated with Mxxxxxx or
ALxxxxx, I have shown you my personal information
proving my identity and all the information I have
sent proves this to be true.
My duaghter has also faxed her info to PAYPAL and
proved her information and today you have closed and
resticted my business partners account Scott xxxxxxxx
and he will now prove his information.
Scott has infomred me that this is all based on the
fact that Mxxxxxxx had used the computer at my
daughters house while he was rooming there.
Mxxxxxxx no longer lives at my daughters house, and he
is not apart of my dealings , Ralxxx's dealings or Scotts dealings in anyway.
Why have you restricted our accounts when obviously
the problem is related to Mxxxxxx and his account.
xxxxxxxx's actions have NO BEARRING ON MY ACCOUNT OR THAT OF SCOTT xxxxx OR RALxxx xxxxx.
Please advise of what we need to do to get this account reopened?
We no longer have contact with Mxxxxxxx nor no how to get in contact with him at this time or any time in
the future...
posted on January 19, 2002 07:56:49 AM new
Well I would be lying if I said you would get a quick resolution. But connecting with Damon is probably the best place to start.
No offense Damon but this is getting old FAST. A quick resolution would be a wonderful thing to get these people & their business going again.
posted on January 19, 2002 08:11:22 AM new
this is a lesson for all of us-if we use our pc to run our business,it would be wise to lock up our pc when we are going to be away for a long time.
or even when we are not away,dont let just anyone get online with our pc and via our ISP ,use our email adddress etc.
this is how ebay and paypal and others figure who is related to whom,in cyberspace,you dont know if the email id and user id and what not id all belong to one person or many persons.
i think we all need to treat our cybersales busines seriously -camera,scanner,copier,pc,laptop,email id ,manuals etc are all business properties,someone comes around and want to play,tell him to go to KINKO and play and PAY.
I don't know the amount that is owed from this roommate, I cannot get in contact with him nor does he have anything to do with me anyways.
Paypal is simply not looking at the situation with clarity.
All the info and all the transactons ever done by all 3 of these persons are legitamate and they have never had a problem with chargbacks,returns, or anything.
The only problem was that this old roommate wanted to use ebay aswell and logged in from this same isp, What happened if we were in a small community and many people had to go to the local cyber cafe to do their internet shopping would that mean that 40-100 people that have accessed that account from that cyber cafe are all related and doing something bad if one little kid screwed paypal???????
It is EXTREAMLY FRUSTERATING and completely illegal to hold the $38000 hostage..
You would think that they would be bendinf ove backwards to have me as a customer since I do $50-75,000 in sales per month, however they simply brush me off and give no reason or possible solution.
I don't see why I should pay the other person negative balance(s) first off I don't know him second how much is it? and third would you pay for my balance in this sitauation??????
I have applied for a merchant account and it seems that i have got it but some still want to use paypal so I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place please advise.....
posted on January 19, 2002 11:14:08 AM new
Number one, definately don't use paypal until this is resolved. They will pay into your restricted account, where you won't be able to access the money.
Number two, e-mail damon your e-mail addresses for your accounts at [email protected]. That usually is his first question, so to speed things along send him your e-mail addresses for your accounts with this url for your post. I would give Damon/and or other employees at PayPal a week or two and then if it is not fully resolved you should take further action.
posted on January 19, 2002 11:42:36 AM new
I have already emailed Damon the login names and all the info..
As for the restriction they first want you to fax a bar code cover sheet with id attached, we have done that and with alot more then needed.
We sent copies of :
Social security card
Drivers License
Utility Bill
Bank Statement
Voided check for the accounts on file
business cards with business info
They replied with this:
Dear Mr. Txxxx,
This email confirms that we have reviewed your fax. Your appeal is
denied
at this time for the following reason:
1) Your other PayPal accounts with negative balances will have to be
payed
back.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
again.
Sincerely,
PayPal Account Review Department
Totally ridiculous ..........
How can one buyer or seller do this to another paypal member and paypal freeze our accounts???
The verification was not a problem for us as we are new and are doing large amounts of volume transactions however to deny our account because of someone else.Who is not affiliated with us or part of our business or anything...
If they could at least open one account that the funds are being transfered to and allow me to withdraw oe even send the funds as a business needs to do to survive, we could be perfect.
I just want some actions done,
if they wont open the accounts I can easily make this a MAJOR deal involving media, lawyers and proper authorities.
One thing paypal dosn't know is that some paypal account holders have important friends and families.
If you had the availablity to have your story on 60 minutes, or investagative reports and expose paypal for their complete lack of business practices and illegal account freezing of non paypal funds...would you?
They have had the account frozen for almost 2 and a half weeks and if this is not dealt with and DAMON from paypal is not contacting me regarding this issue I will definately be taking further action.
Lets see if DAMON or anyone for that matter from paypal replies and if so with what answer?
posted on January 19, 2002 12:02:13 PM new
They are making interest off of that money. Don't think they will turn it over any time soon. They'll probably milk it for as long as they can. After all, a company that consistently loses the kind of money they do, has to find some way to make it back.
PayPal, at its sole discretion, reserves the right to close an account at any time for any reason, including but not limited to a violation of this Agreement, upon notice to the User and payment to the User of any unrestricted funds held in custody.
PayPal, at its sole discretion, also reserves the right to restrict withdrawals from an account for any one of the events listed below. If the dispute covers only a specific transaction, we will only restrict funds related to that particular transaction. If your account is restricted, you will be notified by e-mail and requested to provide information relevant to your account. PayPal will investigate the matter promptly. If the investigation is in your favor, we will unrestrict your account. If the investigation is not in your favor, PayPal may return funds to the sender and unrestrict the remainder of your account, continue the restriction for up to 180 days as to funds necessary to protect PayPal against the risk of reversals, or may close your account by giving you notice and mailing a check for any funds in your account (minus funds that are in dispute) to the address that you have provided. If you are later determined to be entitled to the funds in dispute, PayPal will make an additional payment of those funds to you.
Reports of unauthorized or unusual credit card use associated with the account including, but not limited to, notice by the card issuing bank
Reports of unauthorized or unusual bank account use associated with the account
Complaints received regarding non-shipment of merchandise, non-delivery of services, merchandise not as described, or problems with merchandise shipped
Initiation by a buyer of a reversal process through the buyer's issuing bank without first pursuing the Buyer Complaint process described below.
Receipt of potentially fraudulent funds
Excessive disputes or reversals, or attempts to "double dip" by receiving funds in a dispute both from PayPal and through a reversal or a refund from the seller,
Refusal to cooperate in an investigation or provide confirmation of identity when requested
Initiation of transactions considered to be cash advances or assisting in cash advances
Sending unsolicited email or posting referral links on websites where they are not permitted
Opening multiple Personal accounts
The account has been used in or to facilitate fraudulent activity
Violations of this User Agreement
Name on the bank account associated with the PayPal account does not match the name on the PayPal account
Return of an incoming Electronic Funds Transfer for insufficient funds in the bank account, incorrect bank routing number, or incorrect bank account number
Use of an anonymizing proxy.
PayPal will use reasonable efforts to investigate accounts that are subject to a restriction and to reach a final decision on the restriction promptly.
posted on January 20, 2002 02:35:26 PM new
DAMON mark my words, todays date is Sunday,January, 20th,2002.
I have not received anything from DAMON or paypal in telephone, email, or account being unrestricted meanwhile I have 11 customers threatening me with negative feedback for not completeing the sale....
I have offered them other payment options but they do not wish to use it. only paypal for now...
As for my $5160 in the account and $33,000 pending its all being held and frozen.
I have contacted legal representation and the media and both are interested in this case and story respectively.I will be giving them 72 hours to completely open my accounts and allow business as usual or I will start with 2 actions:
1) Legal representation
2) Media story which won't air until late March but will be on 60 minutes.
(If anyone else would like to have their story repesented on 60 minutes after this 72 hour period expires I would be happy to forward your info to the proper people whi would get in touch with you seperatly to verify each story. Please remember that you will need to have proof of your claim and sign all affidavides and notiorized papers to back up your cliams.)
DAMON mark my words, todays date is Sunday,January, 20th,2002.
posted on January 20, 2002 04:17:07 PM new
Damon doesn't work on weekends unless it is for outstanding issues. However, it definately should be (i'm not saying it will, i'm saying it should be) resolved wtihin the next 72 hours. If not, please post the date of 60 minutes, I would really like to see this. Good luck with your account issue.
posted on January 20, 2002 07:59:48 PM new
If I don't have the accounts opened and access to the funds this will proceed and I will definately post the 60 minutes show time.
I cannot belive this company does not simply contact me or any of the people involved and inform us to what they want?
We have done everything they have asked at our expense and time and they expect us to track down one of THEIR customers.
As for paying for this guys bill I have asked about his account but got no info they said they cannot tell me anything about his account.
Also I do not see why I or anyone but him should pay for his account balances.
posted on January 20, 2002 09:19:31 PM new
Interesting PayPal restricts your accounts because they say you owe someone elses negative balance, yet they won't tell you anything about the account. They may have also restricted your accounts since it is against their terms of service to have multiple accounts, but this doesn't give them any right to your money.
posted on January 21, 2002 10:47:41 AM new
Here is one of the accounts recently set up 3 days ago to accept payments. This is Scott H has included all the correct info and has added a confirmed bank account and credit card (which will be confirmed today or tomorrow since the 4 digit number has not be placed on the credit card yet)
They restricted it since he added and made this account from the same ISP as his business partners daughters .
He obiously was there dealing with this ordeal and the ordeal or the daughters and his partenrs and decided to open the account right then to accept the payment due, below is the 2 payment accepted and the 13 payment canceld but pending to the customers the total on this account alone is $4,934.02
in the account *(AFTER THE PAYPAL FEES)
and $27,910 in orders...
Not to mention the 11 orders currently not even sent for $2563 each...equalling $28,193 and 5 orders for $2650 each equalling $13,250 total.
Making the new total, $72,287.02 which paypal would have got $1634.31 in fees this week alone.......
Recent Activity | All Activity
File Type To/From Name/EmailAmount ($) Date Status Action
Payment From Roger Cxxxxx 2,563.00 Jan 18, 2002 Completed
Bill To herbert sxxxxx 2,659.00 Jan 17, 2002 Canceled
Bill To lrs@cxxxxxxxxxxxx 30.00 Jan 17, 2002 Canceled
Payment From Greg Kxxxxx 2,519.00 Jan 17, 2002 Completed
Bill To capxxxxxxxxx@ 2,563.00 Jan 17, 2002 Canceled
Bill To wayne bxxxxx 2,563.00 Jan 17, 2002 Canceled
Bill To Robert Rxxxxxxxx 2,563.00 Jan 17, 2002 Canceled
Bill To John Pxxxx 2,563.00 Jan 17, 2002 Canceled
Bill To EDWARD Sxxxxx 2,563.00 Jan 17, 2002 Canceled
Bill To Damon Cxxxxxx 2,563.00 Jan 17, 2002 Canceled
Bill To James Cxxxx 2,563.00 Jan 17, 2002 Canceled
Bill To Mary Axxxx 2,563.00 Jan 17, 2002 Canceled
Bill To awbxxxy@xxxxxxxxxx 2,563.00 Jan 17, 2002 Canceled
Bill To vixxx@xxxxxxxxxx 2,154.00 Jan 17, 2002 Canceled
To view more recent items, please file the current items or check
your History.
Mobile | Mass Pay | Referrals
About Us | Accounts | Fees | Privacy | Security Center | Terms of Use |
Help
posted on January 23, 2002 03:53:13 PM new
Hi, i have received a " we will look into it?"
otherwise nothing, all account still closed.
As for the international account the Scott opened an iternational account as he lives in canada, the business paterner and the main portion of the company is in usa and the daughter is an international verified account holder aswell.
I will wait for the paypal email they have 24 hours....Before i take further action.
posted on January 24, 2002 11:17:22 AM new
Hi Vertigoonline
Please contact me at [email protected]. I believe I can help you as I just returned from arbrition with them on momday and tuesday. If you wish to include you phone number I will be happy to call you directly.If you would like to read about me check this article out.
http://salon.com/tech/feature/2001/02/23/pay_pal/print.html
posted on January 24, 2002 11:19:38 AM new
Club1man: how long will it take for the result to come from the arbitrator(s)? Or do you have it already? Or is it confidential?
posted on January 26, 2002 09:55:29 AM new
Well they have done nothing and kept all the monies...
We have offically left paypal an will keep those up to date with our airing 60 minutes show coming up in march regarding this issue and other peoples stories,,,
They have sent this last letter to me and all the envolved persons, they actually expected us to ship something when they kept the money an restricted the account less then 24 hours after it was opened and funded...
BADMOVE DAMON YOU DID NOT REPLY OR HELP AT ALL...
Dear PayPal User,
We have recently received several complaints regarding your PayPal account
for non-delivery of products that have been paid for through our service.
Please be aware that this type of behavior may be illegal, and it is also
in violation of our Terms of Use and is not tolerated by PayPal. As we
have stated previously, your account has been locked and will not be
reopened for future use. Please reply to this email in order to facilitate
the disbursement of any funds remaining in your PayPal account.
Disbursement can be handled in one of two ways:
1. Your remaining account balance can be used to refund the buyers, or,
2. Your remaining account balance will be held within your PayPal account
for 180 days in order to minimize chargeback risks. Once the 180-day
period is completed, a check will be sent to your home address.
If you do not respond to this notification, option number two will be
selected for disbursement of any remaining balance.
PayPal reserves the right to close any account reported to be involved in
possible fraudulent behavior. In the event of a dispute, PayPal will seek
to recover the funds from you by debiting your PayPal balance and, if there
are not sufficient funds in your PayPal balance, PayPal reserves the right
to collect your debt to PayPal by any other legal means.
Sincerely,
Charles
PayPal Merchant Fraud Department
posted on January 26, 2002 03:41:13 PM new
This is the usual PayPal. They restrict your account, then you don't ship the goods for the money that is restricted (this is what you should do contrary to what PayPal would have you believe; if you can't actually get to the money then PayPal has it and you have no responsibility to ship your goods, i'd send a nice message to buyers if they haven't already, explaining the situation, and explaining that if paypal won't refund you within 2 weeks advise them to file a chargeback). Then they close your account making you sound like a criminal, since you got a lot of complaints about not shipping goods AFTER your account was restricted.
Here's what I would do:
a) continue with your story on 60 minutes unless PayPal can resolve this next week
b) tell paypal to refund all buyers for all pending orders. If they don't within a few weeks I'd advise them to file a dispute with their cc company.
c) for the remaining money you have in your account(s), you could do three things. If you don't mind waiting 180 days, then wait (i think this is an obscene amount of time to hold your money that wasn't part of the pending orders). If you don't want to wait, if the balance is below the limit in your state (usually around 5000) you can take them to small claims court (I found a good article on this, http://www.aboutpaypal.org/taking_paypal.htm) and you don't need a lawyer. If it is above the limit on small claims in your state, then you could think about taking PayPal to arbitration. However, I think that if you actually get your story on tv PayPal might be more inclined to help you (interesting you have to get your story on tv to actually get customer service), so I wouldn't jump to take legal action right away if it is going to cost you anything.
[ edited by andrew123s on Jan 26, 2002 03:42 PM ]
posted on January 26, 2002 04:00:54 PM new
Another suggestion: I would file a claim with travelers insurance. On the claim form put PayPal made an unauthorized transaction out of your account for your whole balance (or whatever you think exactly happened).
[ edited by andrew123s on Jan 26, 2002 07:45 PM ]
posted on January 28, 2002 05:02:15 PM new
It seems interesting at the ending reason for all these account restrictions. There is always a reason (sometimes legitimate to just restrict the account for a few days to make sure there's no fraud, but usually stupidity on PayPal's part). However, the ending result comes up time and time again: your account is being locked because you have numerous non-shipment of goods complaints. This reason has nothing to do with the original reason for the restriction. Why? Maybe PayPal one day will open their eyes and realize: the reason for the non-shipment of goods complaints is the account restriction in the first place. However, PayPal restricts accounts for stupid reasons, but continues to let payments enter the account. Then they wait for the non-shipment of goods complaints to add up, and after a few they e-mail the buyer making him sound like a crook (from the "Merchant Fraud Department," and talking about how that kind of activity is probably illegal). This way PayPal can keep the funds for another 180 days at minimum, while making it sound like the account holder is a crook. Let's see here. $38160, in a high interest savings account for six months, gives PayPal around 650 dollars worth of interest. Now if they hold the money past 180 days and hope the account holder doesn't sue, or hold it until they sue and win, etc, they could get double that. And this is just one account, imagine how much interest PayPal makes over all the restricted accounts it has. This is very interesting.
And look at the original reason for this account restriction, about how he has another account(s) with a negative balance(s). I'm very surprised PayPal wouldn't just take the money out of the legit account to satisfy the negative balance. I'm not saying they should, but if I opened a bank account and overdrafted it by 1000, and then opened another account and put 1000 in it, I would probably find the balance of both accounts are now at 0. Why doesn't PayPal do this? Because they either know that the account holder's story is true, or they don't have enough information to prove it false. Either way, PayPal is restricting the entire legit account, without proof that he even knows the other account holder who has a negative balance. Yet they restrict the account anyway. Add to this that the negative balance probably isn't as high as the legit account's balance. So why didn't PayPal just restrict the amount of the negative balance? There are so many questions left unanswered here, and add to that Damon hasn't even posted here other than to say he will look at the issue soon.
posted on January 28, 2002 07:37:01 PM new
andrew123 said,
So why didn't PayPal just restrict the amount of the negative balance? ////////////////
WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO TO RESTRICT AN ACCOUNT WHICH HAS GONE NEGATIVE??
account holder received payment,could have no intention of honoring the transaction,so withdrew money immediately while buyer waits at least one week,ten days or more,and then file complaint or file chargeback.
if you are the account holder and you logged on and see thIS BOG WHOPPING HOLE.
would you continue to use this account to receive payments from new buyers??
if you are so unhappy with paypal,why dont you take your business to billpoint or c2it or have your own merchant account.
instead of wasting your time on what if scenario,burn a lot of brain cells cooking up scenarios which do not exist.
posted on January 28, 2002 08:05:33 PM new
HI andrew123s,
I've already responded to vertigoonline about their issue. I also referred the issue to our merchant review department, which is the department that has the final say in evaluating a merchant's case. I have no more say in the matter.
If you look at what was posted, the merchant review team gave options on how to handle the account balance (refunds,etc.)
posted on January 28, 2002 08:35:55 PM new
Stopwhining, you misunderstood me. I'm not saying restrict the account which has a negative balance, for that would be pointless. I'm saying, the reason PayPal restricted the account with the positive balance (of tens of thousands of dollars) was because PayPal thought he had other accounts which had negative balances which were not paid back. I'm saying if PayPal is so intent on restricting something, why not JUST restrict the amount of the negative balance in the account with the positive balance. For example, lets say there was a user with two accounts. One with a negative balance of 500 dollars, the other with a positive balance of 50000 dollars. PayPal wants to restrict the account that is 50000 dollars since the user has the other account with the 500 dollar negative balance. Instead of restricting the entire 50000, why not just restrict 500 of that 50000? Therefore, the person would have 49500 of unrestricted funds in his positive account and 500 dollars of funds restricted in his account. Its not good in this case, since the account with the negative balance has nothing to do with this person's account with the positive balance, but it is better than restricting his entire account.
Also, I do not come up with unreasonable scenarios. If I see a potential hole or problem with PayPal I will post it and see if I am misunderstanding something or if there actually is a problem. The idea is to make sellers aware of the potential problems and hopefully let PayPal know about them to fix the problems, not to come up with unreasonable situations for the sole purpose of making PayPal look bad. If you think a situation I come up with is unreasonable, please post about it without resorting to flaming.
Damon, I am mostly concerned about the 180 day wait period. The only reason you are suspicious in the first place that there might be chargeback liability is the fact that he has non-shipment of goods complaints filed against him. The reason for these complaints is because you restricted the account, and the reason you restricted the account appears to be a mistake in the first place. 6 months is a long time to wait for tens of thousands of dollars of your own money, especially when the reason you have to wait is the company's fault. Even if you eventually send a check for the money, it would be six months later than he earned it. People have to make a living here, and some people (I don't know specifically about this case) have their entire business or a large portion of it on PayPal. Restricting their PayPal account could be restricting a major source of their income. The LEAST you could do is give the person all the interest earned from the money just sitting in your accounts for six months. That still is not a good resunt since the account holder is still waiting for his money for six months but that is the very least you could do. The whole reason why you restrict accounts should be to temporarily restrict an account that you have serious reason to believe that the account holder is acting fraudulently. You should investigate and let the customer respond within a few days, and then you should unrestrict the account a few days later, assuming that you can not prove the account was being used for fraud. The way you make people wait weeks and months for their money when their account was restricted in the first place in error is not a good way to deal with customers money, to say the least.
posted on January 29, 2002 08:30:55 AM new
andrew123,
i owe you an apology.after i posted my thread last nite,i realised i misunderstood what you said .
yes,restricting the good accounts for the deficit amount of the other account would suffice if this is the only liability posed.
we dont know what makes paypal want to take such action of locking up so much money from the good accounts and it sounds like they are not changing their mind .
i wish vertigoonline and his canadian partner and his daughter good luck in resolving the issue,have they looked into hiring a lawyer to speak to paypal?
i wish they could recover their fund in the paypal accounts and move to set up a more secure and professional environment to conduct their business.
there are some prior threads on how sellers get into trouble with ebay when multiple ebayers share a pc,but nothing like getting a large sum locked up like this case.
