i've had a lot of positive feedback from people thanking me for warning them. i've also sent some emails to people selling higher value items and have paypal in the auction text somewhere (searched for paypal)
i know it can be considered as spam, but its useful info, as basically anyone living outside of the USA and posts to outside of the usa isnt covered (us UK people get particularly hard hit)
posted on January 29, 2002 08:03:05 AM new
yes, i'm aware it does, but i think me risking loosing my account and feedback rating is worth it to inform people of the true situation with paypal. allready i've had a lot of positive feedback, the method works well.
thanks for the info though
posted on January 29, 2002 03:18:57 PM new
Ever think we don't want r care for your spam. You should have read the terms and rules before you started taking paypal, they are very clear as to overseas account. And yes odds are good that the auction will be taken down soon. Don't meant to seem harsh but I really don't care for Spam from every person who thinks they should tell other how to run their business.
Coonr & tomyou, My guess is neither of you have been left out of pocket by PayPal, if you had you may be able to empathize with bleugh.
The issue here is not so much about , Terms & Conditions but about customer perception.
bleugh felt he was safe, PayPal made him feel safe, yes of course when he actually read the terms he discovered that he wasn't, but by then it is too late.
I am certain that if he did, it is likely that he would not have accepted PayPal as payment.
I agree the false auction is not really the way to go about it, but I disagree that his contacting the sellers using PayPal is spam.
I personally dislike having e-mails about loans, porn and such in my inbox, but I also do not subscribe to the "do not communicate unless invited" definition of spam either. Following that definition would prevent me posting to this forum as no one here has invited me to post here, or is the invitation implied in the fact that it is a "forum".
eBay supplies a means to contact sellers about their auctions, bleugh's communication is about their auctions, therefore should not be considered spam, and from what he has said it is not being taken as such by the recipients.
tomyou
Personally I would have thanked anyone who had warned me against doing business with PayPal, I would have saved much time and money.
I think bleugh's case highlights the importance of customer perception's, he feels he's been wronged, PayPal did not make things clear to him. He also recognizes that the majority of PayPal sellers probably also are unaware of the risks they take, he is therefore spending his own personal time, making sure they are aware of it. I find that admirable and in the spirit of the Internet.
Is it not PayPal's responsibility to do everything they can to ensure that thier sellers/buyers are aware of risks? In most other industries dealing with the general public this is the case. Think about the warnings on McDonalds hot pies warning about them being hot. The warning is clear and on the outside of the box. No one could ever hold McD's responsible for burning thier mouth.
PayPal has clearly made the decision that not making this clear is better for thier own business, they have made this decision at the expense of people like bleugh. Are you saying this is acceptable ? If we were talking about B2B then I would agree but not when dealing with the public.
bleugh,
If you feel you have the time I would suggest detailing your experience and submitting to UK consumer/news sites and also UK computer magazines. This would probably be better recieved than publishing your experience as a false auction.
You may also be interested to know that PayPal appears to have entered into an agreement with QXL.com as thier "preferred" payment provider in the UK. I would imagine they are unaware of the risks they are exposing thier users too.
From the QXL site; "Payments sent with PayPal are more secure than those sent through the mail -- they can't be lost or stolen."
Regards
Daren
[ edited by webdesigns on Jan 29, 2002 05:39 PM ]
posted on January 29, 2002 05:50:45 PM new
Actually I have had money lost due to paypal. I have had 5 "issues" with them and 2 have been decided against me. Did I like it ? no, but it did go by the book and according to the rules so I understood the ruling. The terms are very clear if you take the time to read them. I don't want to speculate why this user had issues but it could be not a confirmed address or a number of reason clearly stated in the terms of use. No information was given except I got took. Well that works both ways. Sorry if you don't like the service either and I understand your position but I dtill don't need someone to tell me to stop using services I enjoy and use. They aren't doing business with me and according to the E-bay terms "perhaps they didn't read them also" that is spam also.
posted on January 29, 2002 06:31:33 PM new
tomyou
so from your experiences, you know where you stand with PayPal, which is my point.
it is all about the customers perception, taking my McD example, would you not agree that PayPal could place a line at the top of the "youve got cash" mail stating the risks ? Would it cost PayPal anything to do this ?
you are in a good position to use PayPal as you are fully aware of the risks involved, although you had to learn the hard way, through losses yourself, I am sure that you now factor in the "risk" into your prices and realise the importance of "verified addresses" you are indeed a fortunate PayPal user.
"The terms are very clear if you take the time to read them"
for a business person I would agree with this but when dealing with the general public, especially with sums of money that could be extremely significant amounts of money for that individual, i don't subscribe to the "you should have read the terms" response. I consider PayPal has a responsibility to its users to inform them of the risks. PayPal supplies the means for an individual to seriously damage thier financial health, with that comes responsibility.
As for the clarity of thier terms, I would also disagree. You only have to read some of the threads in this forum and others, to discover that even some of PayPal's own employees appear to find them unclear. So what hope do others have ?
so far, i've hadnearly 100 mails from people thanking me!,
my story is, yes i was naive, i did not read the terms, but on the frnt page i saw guarenteed for $100,000 no little star indicating terms and conditions apply, etc, nothing saying this was for USA citizens only.
I shipped my phone to an address in Russia, which in retrospect was stupid, IF i had read the terms i wouldnt have. Also, if my case had been in the minority then i would say nothing, it would have been my own stupididy. Thing is people see the guarenteed accounts, and dont read terms,
I searched on Google, and found nearly 10,000 pages relating to paypal scam, fraud, etc, so now i feel done over, clearly this company is committing bad business practices, so I'm taking it upon myself to inform people, lt them make their own decisions, thats why i've posted links here and to other forums, people can read and decide for themselves that there are issues or not. many people i mailed are keeping their accounts, just they are emptying them assoon as money goes in, fair enough. many others have withdrawn all money and intend to never use them again. a few are continuing as normal.
Point is, 100 odd people i've mailed are wiser. over 500 people have read the auctions i've put up last week and this week, they're all wiser. if paypal put a statement on the home page that terms apply, i'll stop!, simple as that.
posted on January 30, 2002 08:13:01 AM newI shipped my phone to an address in Russia, which in retrospect was stupid
Shipped the phone to an address in Russia? Well, yes I'd say you made a bad judgement call. I'm not sure how you find PayPal as the villian, but I guess that beats accepting responsibility.
posted on January 30, 2002 08:24:45 AM newi don't subscribe to the "you should have read the terms" response. I consider PayPal has a responsibility to its users to inform them of the risks.
Since you don't think they should have to read, how should PayPal inform them? Perhaps they could call them up and tell them? Or do you suggest they send someone over to their homes and explain it?
posted on January 30, 2002 10:16:15 AM new
The buyer probably doesn't legally have any reason to hold paypal responsible, since they didn't read the terms (26 pages at the moment of this posting). However, PayPal does make it sound like from the outset that it protects you. They should put something at the bottom of every page saying buyers are not protected unless they can recover funds (if they pay with a bank account or paypal funds). Its just like the seller protection e-mails that say you can be chargeback free by folowing the rules. They forget to mention this is only the case if the buyer is happy with the goods (and wouldn't file a false chargeback) for every transaction. Yisgood's pages says it best, where he said PayPal forgot to mention that when PayPal means "chargeback free," it only applies if the buyer doesn't file a chargeback.
posted on January 30, 2002 10:53:00 AM new
well, to those of you with the attitudes, i only wish you dont get scammed as easily as i did, it's all to easy to sit back and call others stupid, thing is, i'm an average internet user, and average internet users are stupid, things need to be spelt out, period. if mr average reads his account is guaranteed, then they believe it is (notice now theres a click thru link on paypals guarantee statement on the homepage), unfortunatley i am Mr trusting naive Mr average, this scam has changed that. I would like other Mr and Mrs averages to be luckier than myself, and give them the information that allows them to perform an educated decision on online payment schemes.
Yes, I got scammed,
Yes i was silly posting to Russia (i wouldnt have posted it there if i had saw 1000's of pages out there on paypal)
fact is i was too trusting, and believed PayPal was secure, PayPal isnt secure
Knowledge is power,
I did not say that a user should not have to read the terms. I am just being realistic, in the real world people don't, It is in most peoples human nature to be trusting of others until given reason not to.
Having been around on the Internet since its early days, my experience tells me to trust no-one until they have proved themselves trustworthy.
However human beings are born with a trusting nature, its only from experience that you act otherwise.
Trusting people does not make you an idiot.
If PayPal actually expected every user to read the terms then there wouldn't be any reason to mention the $100,000 insurance on the front page, would there ? As according to you everyone would know about it when they read the terms.
As for your other suggestion, I did actually suggest a solution to the problem, PayPal could tell the user in the "you've got cash" email. Would that hurt anyone ?
I ask you again to remember that your average PayPal user is not a business and as such is less likely to consider risks, or make enough sales to cover any losses.
bleugh is as far as I am concerned accepting his responsibility. He has not as far as I can tell told people not to use PayPal. He is just making sure others are aware of the risks. If PayPal did this themselves others would not feel the need to do so.
Have you never told anyone about your experiences in the hope that it would be of help to them ?
ebaybleigh,
I would ignore the attitudes if i were you. Fact is , as i said, everyone is born trusting , the reason they are not, is because , like me, they have either.
1) Been scammed
2) Learned from others who have been
In either case, their arguments towards you become null and void.
Regards
Daren
[ edited by webdesigns on Jan 30, 2002 04:21 PM ]
posted on February 1, 2002 12:25:23 AM new
Hi ebaybleugh,
PayPal does a fair amount to screen credit cards for fraud. It doesn't, however, completely minimize the risk that a stolen card is being used.
One of the guides that users should always use is the list of approved countries on our site. Russia, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Ukrainev,and Romania are all countries with relatively high credit card fraud rates.Please notice that these countries are not approved for service with PayPal.
I would encourage users to utlize EXTREME caution when someone attempts to pay you with a credit card stating that they would like the item shipped overnight.
I am sorry that you got taken by someone engaging in credit card fraud.
posted on February 2, 2002 09:37:02 PM new
Coonr, i'm just wondering something. You keep posting things on this board supportive of PayPal. But I found an epinion of PayPal that rates PayPal extremely low, with the same username as you have on auctionwatch. Is this your epinion or someone else's? Or were the problems old and fixed?
