posted on August 25, 2002 01:19:29 AM new
How much money does PayPal make on all the money it holds up or keeps from chargebacks? It must be staggering!
We sold to a PayPal verified customer with verified address. Shipped with a signature and ID requirement ALL proceeded with a phone call to the scam artist to verify the auction. What does PayPal do but hang up on you when asked when will we receive our money back in our account! We more then followed all of the requirements according to the Seller Protection Plan. What a joke! A lot of empty words for us suckers out there.
Well PayPal you will never see a dime from our auctions again and we will post our reasons why we will never accept a PayPal payment on all our auctions and anywhere else we can find. The one thing that is easy to find is complaints about PayPal. With the upcomming merger between PayPal and Ebay, maybe FOX NEWS will be interested in your business practices.
What EXACTLY are the fees for that you charge? Sure doesn't pay to really check out those Credit Cards when you can leave all that money in play, now does it?
posted on August 25, 2002 06:02:12 AM new
paypal does not make any money on chargebacks it lost,it will lose money if it cannot debit your account for that amount.
paypal should change its policy to say that we will do our best to fight the chargeback with the dc and signature information you provide,but if we lose,we will have to debit your account for the amount plus the chargeback fee.
posted on August 25, 2002 11:46:35 AM new
If you follow all the guidelines for the Seller Protection Plan as stated, PayPal should have the loss. After all, they are charging fees and say they check people out and if you follow all the guidelines the Seller Protection Plan protects you. BAH!
The stated reason for the chargeback was that someone fraudgulently used the card. How is that when the very buyer had to produce ID and signature upon delivery, And we spoke to him on the phone before shipping.
We went above and beyond what PayPal required and their response was to hang up on us.
The bottom line is we were duped into believing in their policies and business practices. I wish we would have discovered all the pending lawsuits against PayPal before this. We would have stopped doing business with the long ago.
[ edited by ljart53 on Aug 25, 2002 11:53 AM ]
posted on August 25, 2002 01:16:57 PM new
Ljart53,
I believe you misread Stopwhinnings post, he was stating what PAYPONZI's terms should say.
Given that your still screwed because they don't abide by their own regs. They twist them to benefit only themselves. I'm sure a PAYPONZI rep will come to your aid in hopes that you'll shut up and instead praise them for a "WONDERFUL"job. That's their usual MOS. In the future remember
posted on August 25, 2002 02:18:26 PM new
ljart53,
Do you have proof of shipment to the confrimed address, that is trackable on-line?
PayPal's Seller protection policy requires
The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online. This documentation must show that you shipped to the Confirmed Address.
posted on August 26, 2002 12:17:21 AM new
Proof of Shipment
Auction closed. Obtained information from Ebay, address, phone number. Made three phone calls to verify who we were shipping to. Shipped UPS, insured, SIGNATURE and ID required before the package was to be delivered. AND called after it was delivered. I would say that about covers it.
Now do you think we get any one response from PAYPAL? No we get a different story every time we call. New person, new story.
This should be so cut and dried a transaction in our favor. PayPal should honor their own guidlines.
At this point we are dealing with more then one thief. The bidder who has done this to many sellers and PayPal
posted on August 26, 2002 12:21:21 AM new
Address was confirmed with Ebay and PayPal. We never ship to anyone that has an unconfirmed address. Over a certain dollar amount we always make a phone call. If everything does not add up, we do not ship.
posted on August 26, 2002 12:39:20 AM new
My apologies to Stopwhining and thanks for the commandment.
I simply feel like a total fool for believing that if I did everything right by PayPal's guidelines that I was protected. How many others are there that stupidly believed the same thing?
The Russian bidder that bought from us, buys product and then just says he did not charge it. I am sure the police will catch up with him sometime, but since this game works so well, there will be a lot more sellers that will be unwittingly donating to him.
posted on August 26, 2002 07:00:28 AM new
i do not work for paypal,i use paypal and seldom need to call paypal,but i have heard a lot of complaints of their poor customer service.
i also use propay,billpoint and amzn one click,yahoo paydirect to accept payments.
i used to have a merchant account with paymentech.
i do not believe any one of these services will eat the loss in case of a chargeback.
the merchant is the one who bears the risk,thats why i said paypal should revise its policy to say'we will do our best to fight the chargeback but if we lose,we will debit your account for the chargeback amount plus the chargeback fee'
middleman does not bear the risk,even with insurance company which claims to do so,would cancel the policy if the person submit too many claims.
by the way,i speak from personal experience,i have 5 chargebacks-not only do i have to refund the payment service for the sales amount chargeback,eat the chargeback fee,i also lost my merchandise and paid for express shipping so the crooks can have them fast!!
posted on August 26, 2002 07:50:50 PM new
The man that bought was Russian living in San Diago. An easy scam in the USA to order product and then just say you didn't after you get it. We called him and he comfirmed he received the product. He loved it. Then again he new he would be getting it for free.
Our losses did go beyond the item. We had AW fees, Ebay fees, PayPal fees and shipping.
We only accept Bidpay now. I am in the process of collecting as many complaints about PayPal as I can, then I am going to forward then to as many news agencies I can. Hopefully one of them will find their business practices questionable.
BE WISE DO NOT USE PAYPAL
If you still use PayPal. Send your money out as soon as paid to your bank, then send that money to another bank that is NOT registered to PayPal. This way, if they want their money on a charge back they will have to do an investigation and prove that they did.
They say they do an investigation, but will supply no documentation to support that fact. Why would they spend the man hours to do an investigation when they already have no intention of following their own policies?
[ edited by ljart53 on Aug 26, 2002 07:52 PM ]
[ edited by ljart53 on Aug 26, 2002 07:55 PM ]
posted on August 26, 2002 08:45:09 PM new
So it appears you do NOT have proper proof of shipping per the PayPal Consumer Protection Program.
__________________________________________
coonr: Yes we DO have proper proof of shipping per the PayPal Consumer Protection Plan! Please read all the prior postings. We went beyond the PayPal guidelines. They tell us we did everything right, the when we asked for any specific information they gave us many different answers or hung up on us.
Do you work for PayPal? You sound like one of their employees. And where is the Oh so helpful Damon?
posted on August 26, 2002 08:53:50 PM new
coonr,
read her original post ,she did all the things paypal expects a good seller to do.confirmed addr ,signature receipt.
paypal lost the chargeback despite proof of shipping to confirmed addr and signature receipt.
this is the problem we have selling in cyberspace,as many credit card issuers who review the chargeback said 'you dont have a charge receipt and of course you dont have a signature on charge receipt.
and paypal is not willing to eat the loss.
may i ask how much dollar amount is involved??
i beleive you can get your ebay final value fee back if it is not too late.
posted on August 26, 2002 11:15:55 PM new
I would e-mail [email protected], from what it sounds like you definately should have your money back. The chargeback wasn't a quality of goods chargeback, so if you followed the seller protection policy completely I can not fathom a reason why they would keep your money (though I'm sure some other people can).
posted on August 27, 2002 01:22:33 AM new
We lost a little over $900.00 on this one sale. PayPal will give the money back as per their guidlines or they can reap, whatever I am able to do, to make knowlegable, as many people as I can.
I think the obvious thing is, we as sellers are trusting our MONEY with a business that will give you no information, has lousy customer service and hangs up on you when you ask them any details. If a bank did this we would stop doing business with them pronto!
ALSO folks, even if you have an account in good standing and you decide to close it, PayPal will hold your funds for 180 days, just in case there would be a charge back! Remember, move your money out fast, then move your money to an account not linked to PayPal.
[ edited by ljart53 on Aug 27, 2002 01:44 AM ]
posted on August 27, 2002 05:43:18 AM new
it sounds like paypal is behaving more and more like a merchant account provider.
ma be damon can get you more information -did they do a good job presenting your case and what did the credit card issuer say??
do you have any record that the russian living in san diego admit he received and signed for the goods after showing his id and you have talked to him on the phone??
and what did the russian guy say to his credit card issuer ??
i believe the merchant has 3 times to present the case and if it wants to take it to a higher court,it will cost a lot of money which i am sure paypal will not be willing to pursue.
posted on August 27, 2002 07:11:56 AM new
Sorry, but dont see what is being refered to here..... Lets go thru the steps to the seller protection program.
1. Have a Verified U.S. or Canadian Business or Premier Account.
2. Ship to the buyer's Confirmed Address.
3. Be able to provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online. This document must show that you shipped to the buyer's Confirmed Address.
4. Accept a single payment from one PayPal account for a purchase.
5. Ship only to a domestic (U.S.) buyer at a U.S. address.
6. When a complaint occurs, provide complete information within 7 days of a request from PayPal. However, if PayPal is required by the credit card association to respond immediately to resolve a chargeback, provide the information within 3 days. PayPal will indicate the response time required in the email message sent to you.
posted on August 27, 2002 08:01:41 AM new
Quote what you want till the cows come home coonr.
As long as people use PAYPAL & PAYPAL makes them believe that they are protected then when they find out they are not protected FOR WHATEVER REASON they will not be happy customers. Probably not PAYPAL customers anymore. The more Customers they screw, piss off, or just plain scam the less customers that will be using their service. The more FORMER customers that will be vocal about their problems here & on other boards.
So go right ahead & keep quoting out of the book of PAYPAL trying to prove everyone did something wrong.
Eventually there will be no more customers to quote it to.
posted on August 27, 2002 10:09:10 AM new
TO COONR:
You are obviously a representative from PAYPAL. I guess you keep hoping that no one
reads the prior postings above. Not only did we meet all 6 requirements, we also required
the delivery to be verified with a:
PHOTO ID UPON DELIVERY and PHONE CALLS PRIOR TO MAILING
AND AFTER RECEIVED.
TO STOPWHINING:
it sounds like paypal is behaving more and more like a merchant account provider.
NO IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY ARE BEHAVING MORE LIKE THE THIEF
ma be damon can get you more information -did they do a good job presenting your case
and what did the credit card issuer say??
THESE ARE THE KIND OF QUESTIONS THAT MAKE CUSTOMER SERVICE HANG UP ON YOU! I AM STARTING TO BELIEVE THEY DO NOT EVEN BOTHER TO REPRESENT THE CUSTOMER OR INVESTIGATE, WHY, THEY HAVE THEIR MONEY
do you have any record that the russian living in san diego admit he received and signed for the goods after showing his id and you have talked to him on the phone??
I KNOW THIS CANNOT BE A SERIOUS QUESTION. HOW MUCH MORE PROOF CAN YOU POSSIBLY PROVIDE UNLESS YOU WENT TO HIS FRONT DOOR WITH A WITNESS AND DELIVERED IT IN HIS HANDS!
and what did the russian guy say to his credit card issuer ??
HOW THE _ _ _ _WOULD I KNOW!? WHAYEVER GOT HIM THE PRODUCT FOR FREE
i believe the merchant has 3 times to present the case and if it wants to take it to a higher court, it will cost a lot of money which i am sure paypal will not be willing to pursue.
I NO LONGER BELIEVE PAYPAL BOTHERS TO PRESENT THE CASE THE FIRST TIME. TRY ASKING FOR ANY PROOF OF ACTION ON PAYPALS PART AND
THEY HANG UP ON YOU!
Thank you GU1HToM. A clear response to a clear problem.
BE WISE DO NOT USE PAYPAL
If you still use PAYPAL. Send your money out as soon as paid to your bank, then send
that money to another bank that is NOT registered to PAYPAL. This way, if they want
their money on a charge back they will have to do an investigation and prove that they did.
ALSO folks, even if you have an account in good standing and you decide to close it,
PAYPAL will hold your funds for 180 days, just in case there would be a charge back!
Remember, move your money out fast, then move your money to an account not linked to
PAYPAL. With no money to grab they will be forced to do an investigation and prove it
before being paid. As sellers we all take risk of a charge back. The difference is, we
thought we were insured through the Consumer Protection Plan!
posted on August 27, 2002 12:22:51 PM new
You confirm what I've been saying all along.
PAYPONZI is STEALING from it's honest customers and defending the SCAMMERS
remember
[ edited by club1man on Aug 27, 2002 12:22 PM ]
[ edited by club1man on Aug 27, 2002 12:26 PM ]
posted on August 27, 2002 01:24:22 PM new
Well where is that knight in shining armor they call Damon? I would have thought the little hero would have come swooping in here to save the day before now! LOL
ljart53 - best of luck to you. I am still amazed every time I read one of these stories about the conduct of the 'Customer Service' department at PayPal. I mean, who treats their customers like that (and stays in business?)? Answer: No one. It's only a matter of time.
Damon can come in here, quote policy & procedure, "save the day", etc... it doesn't change the fact that: #1 PayPal has MAJOR problems with their policies; #2 They violate their own terms of service over and over and over again, but god forbid YOU don't follow it TO THE LETTER if you expect to be protected; and #3 Their so-called Customer Service IS A BAD JOKE!! And no-one's laughing!!
posted on August 27, 2002 02:20:15 PM new
we can argue till the cows come home,but do a reality check-
seller is the one who solicit the customer to buy,not the payment service.
seller talked to buyer on the phone and seller trusts ebay to be a trustworthy venue to sell goods and get paid-implied that ebay is a good place to meet good customers.
good customer turns out to be a scam artist.
so there is plenty of finger pointing to go around.
there are 20,000 shops on yahoo and they all have merchant accounts with banks and the shops are taken often by scam artists using stolen cc data.
who bears the loss??the shopowners.
paypal should really revise the seller and buyer protection program to stop misleading the consumers.
no service is going to pony up a few hundred to a few thousand dollars for a lousy fee of a few dollars ,if you believe it will,i have a piece of swampland in florida i want to talk to you about.
use your judgment,ask for money order or wire transfer,or if you want to accept credit card,ask if you are willing and able to accept potential loss.
posted on August 27, 2002 02:51:41 PM new
ljart53,
I am not a representative of PayPal. I am a satisified customer.
I certainly hope everyone reads closely all the previous posts, because if they read closely they will see you have not addressed each of the requirements of the SPP. You have instead talked around them.
If you had met all the requirements, you would not be here whining.
posted on August 27, 2002 04:48:08 PM new
TO COONR:
You keep trying to post commentary, in hopes that anyone new reading this will think we did not follow the requirements.
I have been specific and direct, If you are not a PAYPAL rep., they should hire you, Pre-qualified to try to make the customer look like he did something wrong.
Which requirement of the SPP, did I not follow COONR? What exactly did I "talk around"
EVERY REQUIREMENT OF THE SPP WAS FOLLOWED! What now COONR?
TO STOPWHINING:
Had I known PAYPAL had the reputation it does and the Seller Protection Program was scam, I would have never accepted credit cards as a seller, I would have never been a PAYPAL customer. That is the problem. I stupidly felt we were insured if we followed the rules.
I am not whining I am educating. You may not be able to recognise the difference. You are too busy trying to help PAYPAL cover for their actions.
[ edited by ljart53 on Aug 28, 2002 12:44 AM ]
