posted on August 8, 2001 12:06:35 AM new
The Jackson "metro" area has a population of 202,000, hardly an urban area. The "downtown" area is barely 5 blocks long. Jackson might be considered a suburb, if there was an urban metro area ajoining it.
An urban metro area has at least 1,000,000 population.
posted on August 8, 2001 12:27:44 AM new
Oh, well, we were just ranked 11th for crime as an official metropolitan city right on the list with Washington D.C. Does that count?
http://www.wlbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=427778&nav=1L7t
I admit that after 6 pm, you can't find a living soul in the downtown area that doesn't sleep on a park bench.
Now THIS is an interesting concept for schools:
"The superintendent says the classroom should be treated like a business and students like valued customers."
http://www.wlbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=427700&nav=1L7t
Wonder what the customers will request?
T
[ edited by jt on Aug 8, 2001 12:29 AM ]
"Depends on who you ask...the Catholics...or the Prodestant Christians."
To which I say - Aaaaaaargh!!!
Terri, try to understand this...
Catholics predate Protestants. Catholics were already Christians before there any Protestants. Catholics did not stop being Christians just because a group of people in the 1600's questioned the practices of the Catholic Church. The meaning of "Christian" is believing in Jesus Christ as the savior. Yes, Catholics believe that. They are Christians! Followers of Eastern Orthodoxy are also Christians! Greek Orthodox are Christians! Russian Orthodox are Christians! Coptic Christians are Christians! Every single one of them was Christian way before Protestanism came along, and they're still Christians! Protestant Christianity does not have a lock on being Christian!
Sigh.
Now everyone else, maybe, can understand why I beat my head against the wall, over and over. Yes, Terri is right, lots of people in the South think the way she does. Not just about what qualifies as being "Christian," but the whole shebang.
Before I lived in Georgia, I thought things in the South had changed. People who read my or others' comments about the South might have said or thought - Well, that was a long time ago, things might have changed.
Saabsister started this thread with a question. It's been answered, all too well.
Edited to acknowledge my own stupidity.
Catholics aren't not Christians because of a lack of understanding about the historical development of Protestantism, are they? Catholics aren't Christians because Catholicism is a big hoax perpetrated by Satan. Catholics only think they're Christians.
posted on August 8, 2001 03:55:44 AM newPearl IS in a urban area. It is considered metro Jackson. The number of churches differs little from any other MS town. I can think of 19 within 5 miles of me and my town has less than 300 families.
No, it is not an "urban area." Far from it--it is a *small* town at best. And you have 19 churches withing 5 miles & your town has less than 300 families? That equates to 15 families (more or less) per church! You can't get 300 families to agree about the same church & its teaching yet are sure that "everyone" would want the same prayers in public school?!?
As for Jewish or Catholic, they pray to the same God as Chrstians. Why would they complain?
Um...Catholics *are* Christians. The original Christians. Why should they complain? I think you need to homeschool yourself a bit on the workings of both faiths to discover that.
"Catholics are Christians." Depends on who you ask...the Catholics...or the Prodestant Christians. ~adding "Prodestant"
Protestant. The word says it all. What you claim the term "Christian" for is simply a sect that broke away from the mother church because it protested ideas or practices of that church. Not only that, but your church is in all likelihood the sect of a sect of a sect. Christians just can't seem to agree about their own religion.
As for your argument about children spending so much time in school & needing prayer there: there are 168 hours in a week. Let's say every child gets 8 hours of sleep per night--that leaves 112 waking hours. A child spends 30 hours per week in school--less for kindergarteners & some high school kids depending on class load--but an average of 30 hours per week. That leaves 82 hours per week in a conscious (one hopes)state and outside of school. So, you're telling me that 82 hours per week is simply not enough time to instill your particular sect's religious values & precepts? Why are the families & churches not doing their jobs in those 82 hours?
edited cuz "term" just isn't the same without a "t"
[ edited by bunnicula on Aug 8, 2001 03:58 AM ]
posted on August 8, 2001 04:54:43 AM new
donny - What you are not understanding about this arguement is that it is indeed the same one the Protestants are using.
They are saying that the forms the Catholic church use are PREDATED by true Christian forms of the primitive church before it got involved with politics and added all the compromises needed to absorb pagan religions and become a state religion in the second and third century. If you try to say that the Catholic rites and traditions sprang full blown from the apostles of Christ themselves you won't find mant buyers. The Councils and history of the early Church are too well documented to say that.
I would say that the Protestants looked at the soiled condition of the Church - wiped off one corner enough to pick it up with two fingers carefully - and said "Look it is all fixed now!" While leaving most of the mess uncorrected.
What I woulds really like to see is the churches abandoned with trees growing through the roofs, and the preachers forced to do productive work instead of their divisive
message of hate and seperation. It's a filthy business and long overdue to be gone.
posted on August 8, 2001 05:25:03 AM new
No, Gravid, I'm not saying that Catholic rites and traditions, which Martin Luther challenged in the 1500's, sprang full blown from the Apostles. It's precisely that point that Martin Luther made, that the Church had become corrupted through the centuries.
What I am saying, and what Bunnicula has also pointed out, is that one cannot identify oneself as a "Protestant," without acknowledging one's own connection to the Catholic church. Before Protestants were Protestants, they were Catholics. Martin Luther was a Catholic priest. There's no way to get around that, as distasteful as it might be.
I'm not an expert on Martin Luther, but I cannot believe that the basis of his argument was that Catholics did not believe in Jesus Christ as the savior (rather than as just a prophet, as He is viewed in Islam), and it's the belief in Jesus Christ as savior that is the essence of "Christianity."
For a Protestant to claim that Catholics are not "Christians" is ludicrous, because that very argument makes Protestants to be not Christians themselves. There is a historical succession here that just can't be disputed. This isn't a matter of ideology, but plain old historical fact.
posted on August 8, 2001 07:48:27 AM new
Well, I'm a Jew.
Right now, I'm praying to God (not Jesus) that our children grow up with tolerance & respect.
Not everyone is the same.
Individuals deserve to be respected for their values and beliefs.
Individualism is a Gift.
To have religion in every waking hour does not realistically prepare a child for the big world ~ it forces them to remain in their sheltered society with blinders on.
Frightening thought.
Yes, Rosie (good to see you) For those who want religion in schools, go parochial or home school. Public schools are not responsible for taking your child down the varying avenues of Jesus nor should the educators be held responsible for the differences in beliefs within a religion.
And if a teacher poo-poo god-forbid falls in love with someone of a different faith are they fired? forced to resign? burned at the stake?
I fear for the student who finds that he is "different" than the group.
Group-think can be dangerous ~ especially in the volatile teenage years.
What happens when a child finds that he/she has "different" sexual preferences?
I shudder to think.
Pray to God, Jesus, or whoever/whatever else you deem worthy. I respect your right to believe as you see fit and to practice your religion accordingly, so long as it does not interfere with me & mine.
"What I would really like to see is the churches abandoned with trees growing through the roofs, and the preachers forced to do productive work instead of their divisive
message of hate and separation. It's a filthy business and long overdue to be gone."
posted on August 8, 2001 09:53:57 AM new
Born in Phoenix AZ ~ moved to El Paso TX, and then lived a majority of my life (25 years) in Tucson AZ. For the last 6-7 years I have lived in Arkansas.
I went to public school and because my parents did not feel that the public schools in Tucson were doing their job ~~ they tightened their belts and sent me to a catholic school for the remainder of my early childhood education, junior high, and high school. I was born, baptised and raised Roman Catholic.
Moving to Arkansas was quite a culture shock, in more than one way. In one of the ways, was religion. Never in my life have I had more religion shoved down my throat, than here in the bible belt ~~ and this is from someone who attended religious schoools. Imagine my shock when I found out that there was only 1 roman catholic church in the town I lived in. In Tucson, there were 7 or 8! My gosh, for once I was a minority!
Why should I say I was a minority when in all reality I was amongst fellow Christians? Simple! I figured out, very fast, that there was such an intolerance for any OTHER religion!
If you were Church of Christ... beware because the odds are you will (or were) made fun of in school because you were a different religion ~ even if they all are catholisim. (This actually happened to a friend of mine in Mulberry Arkansas. She was Church of Christ and they are a minority in that town, so therefore she spent most of her educational life being made fun of because she did not go to the same church as most everyone else.)
Do you think this just confined to small towns with populations of 400 (ie: Mulberry or thereabouts)? NO! This happens everyday, in Fort Smith, Jonesboro, Conway, Fayetteville, Little Rock, and every other town in this state! One religion thinks they are better. One religion thinks they are "the one".
People have sworn to me, that their dogs can detect "a jew 100 feet away". I've had ex-friends tell me, as we're sitting by the pool in their apartment complexes.. "See that man over there? He's Hindu! All Freckles has to do is look at him and he growls because he KNOWS something is wrong with him." (Freckles was her dog). I've had other 'friends' tell me of the exploits and conquests as they egg houses and cars where some Greek Orthodox Catholics live.
I never had been surrounded by such bigotry until I moved to "the south" ~ or maybe it's just because I'm part of the bible belt now.
So, who better to teach my children about prayer and Jesus' message, then a bunch of intolerant bigots. (oops! Redundancy there!) Why should I want someone like that teaching my children... or rather.. should I say.. poisoining their minds with their bigotry?
I would never dream of having such an ego, as to tell one religion (even if it's just another sect) that they are wrong. I would never dream of dismissing the belief system of an entire religious culture ~ just because we have different beliefs. Yet everyday, day in and day out, this happens.
But somehow.. or another... Pearl MS is immune to this bigotry. There will be absolutely no problems if prayer is allowed in school. There is no intolerance towards other religious ~ at all. It's a perfect world down in Pearl MS. Maybe we should all move down there so we can learn from them....
But wait.. that's right......
We are talking about ONE community, one school, in Pearl, MS where the entire community is in support of it. If you move there, then we have an issue.
There'll be issues if we move there. I guess that means they don't really want anyone who thinks differently from them moving into their town. Guess they aren't THAT immune to bigotry and intolerance afterall.
[ edited by rosiebud on Aug 8, 2001 10:05 AM ]
posted on August 8, 2001 10:35:37 AM new
"If with Christ you died to elemental spirtis of the universe, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world?"
(Col. 2:20 [R.S.V.])
"Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (Col.3:2-3 [R.S.V])
Seems as if some of the (so called) Christians here could be closet Pagans!
It doesn't matter to me if you are. I'm a Pagan too!
Of the earth, I relish in delight.
[ edited by rachelcrisscross on Aug 8, 2001 10:36 AM ]
posted on August 8, 2001 02:01:18 PM newNext to last post then I am out of here for now.
I am sincerely, truely, sorry that some of you have experienced persecution at the hand of religious organizations or individuals claiming to represent them, or by some who live in my geographical area. There is no excuse for that.
I don't believe that denomination or religious practice, this way or that, means a thing to God. I believe in one true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I believe
that Christ was God incarnate and that the Bible is the infallible word of God. I
believe that all humans are created equal, all have sinned and salvation is available to all equally through Christ. I freely acknowledge my own imperfection and my need of salvation through Jesus Christ.
There is a difference between "intolerance" and "persecution" and it appears to me
that what some are describing as "intolerance" is actually "persecution". Persecution is ALWAYS wrong under any circumstance.
However, where "tolerance" is defined in modern common speech as acceptance of
the beliefs of others as to acknowledge them as EQUALLY VALID, and thereby denouncing the
word of God as infallible, I can clearly be labeled "intolerant" and cheerfully accept that label. It is not MY view, MY opinion, that I hail as "truth" but only the infallible word of God. Any yes, I am to be, on judgment day, measured by it and I am certian that I will fall miserably short. My failure, however, does not change the word of God, God's word only reveals my failure.
T
[ edited by jt on Aug 8, 2001 03:21 PM ]
posted on August 8, 2001 02:36:07 PM new
Teri, one question: If you had your way, and religion were taught in school. Would you teach the theory that "Jesus is god incarnate and if you don't belive in Jesus then you'll... (fill in the blank)"?
posted on August 8, 2001 02:54:16 PM new
Actually, the topic was, & continues to be, where you live & how that influences your outllok & attitude towards others.
Seems to be a quite lively & evolving thread to me & far from dead.
posted on August 8, 2001 02:55:38 PM new
I really don't think that his "final act" is something you'd like your children to duplicate....
In the end of times when Christians are put to death for their belief, I want them to boldly step forward and say with their head held high, "I am a Christian."
Death is but a moment. It will seal them for eternity.
T
Do I "like" that thought? NO. Absolutely not.
My hope is for their rapture before it comes to that.
[ edited by jt on Aug 8, 2001 03:06 PM ]
posted on August 8, 2001 03:06:20 PM new
Then let's all pray that the educator's who practice religion in their schools never decide to change WOODSHOP to CROSSBUILDING 101...
posted on August 8, 2001 03:13:11 PM new
The Road Not Taken
by Robert Frost
Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;
Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,
And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
I have been thinking about this poem a lot lately. As many of you know, I was born right across the road from Terri. I can't take credit for making a choice as Frost infers in this poem but the fact that I left that area and spent time outside Mississippi had an effect that I can't take credit for just as Terri should not be credited or blamed for her beliefs as they have been formed in Mississippi.
That, I think was the purpose of this thread which was started by saabsister. We are all the products of our environments. Is this a fair assesment of the situation?
I think that we can be more tolerant and understanding if we can accept this fact.
posted on August 8, 2001 03:19:26 PM new
How did this thread go from "Where have you lived?" to talking about religion? This was more fun when we were talking about where everyone had lived, and not what religion they are.
posted on August 8, 2001 03:21:30 PM new
Terri, it's intolerance that leads to persecution. Without intolerance in the first place, persecution doesn't occur. While you "cheerfully" acknowledge your own intolerance, some of us don't view it quite as cheerfully.
"However, where 'tolerance' is defined in modern common speech as acceptance of
the beliefs of others as to acknowledge them as EQUALLY VALID, and thereby denouncing the word of God as infallible..."
And there is where the trouble lies, in the word "thereby." You've rushed along a line of thinking and thrown a bridge word, "thereby," into it, to connect two completely different ideas.
I don't think that anyone who believes in God, whatever form that belief takes, believes that the word of God is fallible. Jews, Muslims, Christians, Lutherans, Pentacostals, Mormons, Catholics, Copts, etc., etc., all believe the word of God is infallible.
What tolerant religious people do understand is that man is fallible. They understand that however sincerely man tries to understand and follow the word of God, that it's possible that man has made a mistake in hearing the word of God. We realize the mistake may be our own, it may be another's, it may be many different mistakes, some ours, some anothers.
A man can devote his whole heart, his whole mind, his whole life, with complete faith, to serving what he understands to be the "true" word of God and yet, at the same time, accept, with no loss of his own faith, that someone else can, validly, have another understanding. This seems to be a concept entirely foreign to you.
And, yes, it all relates to the question that started this thread - Has where you've lived influenced your viewpoint? You've lived an insular life, in an insular region. I know what the South is like, I live here. You just don't get much exposure to different ideas, or different people. This doesn't have to be crippling, I know plenty of Southern people who are not closed-minded, but, sadly, due to the insular nature of the South, it's much more prevalent and deeply ingrained than it is in other parts of the country.
posted on August 8, 2001 03:39:04 PM new
bunnicula,
When I mentioned the dead horse, I was referring to the religious turn the thread had taken, not the original suggestion that where we live influences our outlooks and attitudes.
posted on August 8, 2001 03:46:15 PM newpattaylor: so was I No thread ever follows *just* the original statement or query. They evolve, as this one has, to encompass related topics. In this thread it has been shown that one's outlook & attitude is often influenced by the cultural directives (including religion) of the geographic location lived in. So, really, the thread *is* "on topic."
posted on August 8, 2001 03:54:37 PM newpattaylor, I think what you're seeing is just a reflection of our backgrounds. After all, the South is part of the Bible Belt.
