posted on August 29, 2001 04:24:21 PM new
I was just reading the CNN site, seeing what's up in the world. One article, under Education, caught my eye. It was an article on special workshops to raise the self-esteem of migrant children & other hispanics.
I am all in favor of kids learning about the achievements of their people. Because, as was pointed out in another thread here in the RT, history isn't *only* whites & their accomplishments. But this article reminded me of one very real problem that lurks in the way these things are presented. And that is exaggeration & sometimes plain lying. When you think of all the very real important things that people of different ethnic backgrounds have achieved, such exaggerations or lies are unnecessary & can end up backfiring & hurting the very pride that is supposed to be fostered.
This particular CNN article mentioned that the kids in question were being told that the Maya invented the zero--and yes, they did have the concept...but other cultures had it earlier. Mexican kids were being told that they were mestizo, not Indian--which is true as far as it goes...they weren't being told that mestizos are descendants of Spaniards *and* Indians. The Mayas were a great people & their achievements really don't have to be exaggerated.
Other examples include black history. The accomplishments & inventions of blacks have been immense, but some very large exaggerations are out there.
When it comes right down to it, white culture has also made claims that aren't the truth. Not so much lies as just plain ignoring the accomplishments of others. Lots of things that are claimed as discoveries or inventions of white Europeans were in fact discovered or invented much, much earlier by the Chinese. Moveable print. Vaccinations. Seismograph. Blast furnaces. Steel. Seed Drills. Row planting. Suspension bridges. Etc.
Self-esteem shouldn't come at the expense of truth, IMO. Just give the kids the facts.
posted on August 29, 2001 05:10:56 PM new
The attempt to raise children's self esteem based on the fact that their race or religion is superior in any way to any other is the worst use of racism and prejudice. Children should be taught the absolute truth about the history of the world when it is appropriate to teach history.
We are all members of the universe and each and every child should know that they are appreciated as individuals equally.
Helen
ed to clarify. add "based"
[ edited by Hjw on Aug 29, 2001 05:38 PM ]
posted on August 29, 2001 05:18:11 PM new
If they want Hispanic history, maybe they would be better served by studying in schools located in Hispanic countries.
They're in America now. They ought to be focusing more on this nation's history rather than that of distant nations. I sure as heck wasn't taught the history of Ireland when I was in school.
I understand wanting to give kids a sense of pride, etc., but It's my feeling that these courses help to foster divisiveness in this country. Same goes for everybody catering to bilingualism.
The last thing we need is schools going out of their way to retard the process of assimilation. There are enough problems already.
posted on August 29, 2001 05:28:05 PM new
Speaking of misinformation, Eli Whitney was the one to patent the Cotton Gin, but the Chinese had already invented it two centuries earlier. I wonder if that correction has made its way into the scholl history books yet?
Spaz, I couldn't agree with you more on bilingual education and the other nonsense. I, too, wasn't taught Irish history to make me feel better. I firmly believe in Macieavelli when he states that the way to hold a kingdom (nation) together is to have just one language, both written and oral. Proponents of bilingual education note that there is no official language of the United states of America. However, not many people know that we almost had German instead of English as our language and that was decided upon the toss of a coin.
sp.
[ edited by Borillar on Aug 29, 2001 05:29 PM ]
posted on August 29, 2001 06:32:52 PM new
Honestly, I don't see how self-esteem can be associated with history. Cultural pride maybe, but I don't see the self-esteem building qualities in finding out the history of your country?????
posted on August 29, 2001 07:13:07 PM new
That is something thats always bugged me, why the Government won't pass anything regarding an official language.
We do know that English what the majority speak, and has, so why can't it be the official language of this country.
I am not talking about people cannot speak their native tongue here, but every publication etc is written in so many languages, your looking everywhere to find the English version.
posted on August 29, 2001 07:29:27 PM new
Why do we need an official language?
Well so everyone has a standard for communication
so everyone can understand each other
So we don't have to print stop signs to voting ballots in 10 different languages.
People have every right to speak the language of their choice, but when it comes to the 'everyday' stuff..... the federal, state, local publications, the interpertors needed for a drivers license, is a big chunk of money.
If you move to say, South America, do they accomadate everyone's native language on everything? (maybe they do, I don't know )
I'm talking about the U.S. only here for an official language
posted on August 29, 2001 07:35:22 PM new
Nearly everyone does speak English. It's no sweat off my back if people who feel more comfortable with Spanish can take a driving test in Spanish. At least that way they drive with a license, insurance etc.
I mean, I see the point but I think it's just some kind of xenophobic siege mentality that motivates the drive to enshrine it in law (not by you!). In 200 years we've had literally tens upon tens of millions of immigrants come here, speaking all kinds of languages and somehow America continues to fucntion, English road signs and all with no 'official' language.
[ edited by jamesoblivion on Aug 29, 2001 07:38 PM ]
posted on August 29, 2001 07:45:42 PM new
True. However we have the 'universal' or international signs on the highways all over here, and you have to sit there and figure out what the heck they mean
(Yes I know a picture of a gas pump means gas station, I know a picture of a tent means camping, but the fork and knife one has me confused )
Well ok, don't make it law, but what would happen if the different levels of gov't quit printing out their publications in the 10 different languages, and only did them in English?
I think I know the answer to that one, the ACLU would have a field day..... scratch that.... Great place, America
posted on August 29, 2001 08:07:09 PM new
The bilingual thing is at a point now where I can't get simple answers to simple questions from McDonald's counter clerks because they don't speak English. It's ridiculous. This is America, yet more and more I'm feeling like I live in a foreign land and need a Whatever/English - English/Whatever dictionary to get through the day.
posted on August 29, 2001 08:54:40 PM new
History...
Spazmodeus: There's nothing wrong with learning about other countries--in fact it's important. Or with learning that in addition to white males, there were white women, blacks, hispanic, etc. that also contributed to this country. However I do agree that the history of this country should be studied & that includes those self-same white males. It is simply amazing how many kids, born here or immgrant, who are *not* learning about them--they know the little we know about Crispus Attucks but can't tell you who John Paul Jones was, or Samuel Addams, etc. etc.
Bilingual eduction...
jamesoblivion:Nearly everyone does speak English. It's no sweat off my back if people who feel more comfortable with Spanish can take a driving test in Spanish. At least that way they drive with a license, insurance etc.
But can they read the road signs? And which Spanish are you speaking of? There *are* different variants or dialects. I met a woman who had come from Cuba--she told me that when she first went to take the driving test she was thrilled to learn she could take it in Spanish...only to discover that she couldn't understand it & ended up taking the test in English!
If one lives in a country one should learn that country's language. Period. And here in the US we simply have too many people from an huge number of language backgrounds *not* to have a national language all can communicate in. And doesn't it strike you that the one group that is catered to across the nation in terms of bilingual education is the one that seems to have the hardest time learning it?
posted on August 29, 2001 09:04:02 PM new
All I am saying is that it's no big deal. The population of America comes from more than 100 countries (immigrants and descendents), originally speaking probably many hundreds or even a thousand different languages and dialects. We are the most heterogenous country in the world and somehow we are also more unified than many, or most. Foreigners and their infernal languages ( ) are nothing new to America and we're doing just fine. I don't think enshrining English into law should be on the agenda because there's no need to do it. Are the Spanish 'taking over'? Hardly. Most come here and learn English. Since there's no need what could be the motivation but some kind of xenophobia?
posted on August 29, 2001 09:16:05 PM new
As a foreign-born myself, it is totally mind-boggling that many people who have been in this country 40, 50 and 60 years DO NOT SPEAK ENGLISH!
I am not saying that the whole world needs to speak English, but those of us who have CHOSEN to come here should have enough desire to make something of our life! What can these people expect from this country?
My spelling might not be perfect, but I have always been able to find work. The young people should make it a point to teach their parents at least the basics of this language. And with all of the free English-as-a-second-language programs everywhere, including churches, I find it unbelievable that not all foreign-born do not avail themselves!
posted on August 29, 2001 09:17:42 PM new
More and more are *not* learning it. Especially in places like California where there are large populations of Hispanics. It is true, you often walk into businesses & the cashier doesn't speak English. Almost every day there will be news stories involving an Hispanic who has been involved in an incident who is described as "so & so, who came here 15 years ago (for example)"...but who has to have an interpreter in order to discuss the incident with the police or reporters.
And there is something else: while such people will get along fine as long as they stay in their cozy little enclaves, they are also *restricting* themselves to those enclaves. They are restricting themselves int he kinds of jobs they can get. How far they will get in this country.
Edited to say: Hi, Shosh! You posted while I was typing.
[ edited by bunnicula on Aug 29, 2001 09:19 PM ]
posted on August 29, 2001 09:31:14 PM new
Its strange that this subject is brought up at this time because something happened recently at my husbands business. I was very angry when he told me about it. One of the supervisors was told by the main boss that if she didn't learn spanish where she could correspond verbally with the mexicans who work there in another department, things would "have to change" and "her job would be in jeopardy". Now, I ask you, why the hell should SHE learn spanish? None of the mexicans that work there speak english, but SHE will get fired if she cant communicate with them? Reverse discrimination, it looks to me.
spellin'
[ edited by hepburn on Aug 29, 2001 09:32 PM ]
posted on August 29, 2001 09:35:59 PM new
And while Im on a semi roll, what about non english speaking lottery winners who have to have an interpretor to claim the money they just won?
posted on August 29, 2001 09:38:16 PM new
One more "roll" for the night....
What about the american indian children who were punished for speaking their language long ago when "the only good indian was a dead one era"? They were told to speak ENGLISH.
posted on August 29, 2001 09:42:44 PM new
The lottery thing isn't a big deal for me. But the bit about having to learn Spanish "or else" is. *That's* the kind of crap that's becoming more common here in California.
I'm sorry, but if a person immigrates to this country it is their job to learn English, not ours to learn whatever language they come here with.
posted on August 29, 2001 09:47:57 PM new
Yes james. Their dollar is as good as mine. But if they are going to win those dollars, and take the time to purchase the tickets and buy food at the market and pay rent and do all the other things they work for HERE in this country, then why cant they take the same amount of time to LEARN THE LANGUAGE? See?
posted on August 29, 2001 09:50:11 PM new
Bunni, my sister and mother had to move from the town she and I grew up in, because she couldnt find a job that would hire her, since she didnt speak spanish. It sucks, plain and simple.
posted on August 29, 2001 09:56:33 PM new
In 1969 I was unable to find work in S.Cal because I did not speak Spanish. It's been going on a long time in some areas.
One thing that bothers me is when you go to visit someone in a Nursing home and all the help is speaking a foreign language. Most of those old folks are about half here anyway and they must be wondering where the he** they are. It should be mandatory that the help speak english and only english around the residents.
posted on August 29, 2001 10:56:24 PM new
Hmmmm...noticed the clerk at the convenient Store, and the order Taker at the Fast Food Chain DON'T Speak English very well, or AT All. Folks, part of the problem is the employer could CARE less. They have VERY LOW paying jobs, that need to be filled and if these bodies can't manage to Speak english, SO BE IT, at least an employee is filling that position. This is the America we Live in NOW, these Jobs MUST be filled, employers are NOT going to pay a Bonus if you can speak english well, they have it too good low balling the Hourly wage. Most "English" speaking prospects would REFUSE these jobs, Find them toooo demeaning (and of course too Low Paying), and yes look down at these positions. So YES Your Husband better learn to Speak better Spanish if he is to keep his Job ,because I got a Funny feeling they are Not Hiring College Grads there.
posted on August 29, 2001 11:06:14 PM new
That, pardon the expression, is a load of cow chips. One doesn't need at "college degree" to learn the language of the country you are living in.
posted on August 29, 2001 11:11:21 PM new
How can one expect to *get* those higher paying jobs if one doesn't bother to learn the language of one's country?
)
