posted on September 12, 2001 11:41:10 AM new
I'll answer too.
Retribution in the form of genocide?
No. Genocide is always wrong. Always.
OK
I watched with horror what happened yesterday. I cried. I got sick. I felt pain. Not anger or vengeance. Just great pain for the unknown thousands of victims. And the families forced to deal with tragedy.
Great pain & sadness for them all.
I knew anti-Islamic fervor would erupt. I fear it, as I fear all irrational violence. I fear for the innocent everywhere.
I thought that when racism came first, for me, it would appear here, where I live, because that's what the bible belt is like.
I though we in AW were somehow, better. Less likely to let our pain turn into something twisted and rabid.
But I was wrong.
I wrote some pretty heartfelt and mean things to some of our posters. But I didn't let you see them, because that's not what I want to be about. Bearmom: You shocked me. Frightened me. You spoke of killing of hundreds of thousands of innocents. Hundreds of thousands. I hope that you don't really believe what you said.
I love America. I love what I think America stands for. Justice. Equality. Freedom. Brotherhood.
Not Racism. Not Genocide.
I could never make war on noncombatants, on unarmed civilians, women & children. I could never kill because someone had beliefs which differed from mine. Islam is just another religeon with radical murderous members, as the Christians and every other sect have.
I won't ask for God to bless us or our cause, to bring death to our enemies, because honestly, what is often done in the name of everybody's God is just, well, wrong.
So, for those of you keeping count, Victoria thinks that mass death & destruction on a genocidal scale is bad. I don't think that the wholesale destruction of Afghanistan or any other country is something the American people want or will endorse. I hope.
We should punish the guilty. I believe we possess the ability to do so. We just never made a serious enough effort at it. I think we now possess the will.
I won't even read this thread again. The hate here is too much for me to absorb along with what I see on TV.
posted on September 12, 2001 12:05:55 PM new
Believe it or not.....lots people woke up in Germany in the 30's and 40's and had it pretty damn good. (pssssstttt.....I do know what you mean though)
posted on September 12, 2001 12:06:15 PM new
I agree with you, Victoria. I can understand the anger people have with innocent American civilians being killed, but how does indiscriminate destruction of the Mideast differ? We've tried for years to find Bin Laden - this will not be a simple "jump in, kick ass, and return home without consequences" type of scenario.
I'm in the suburbs of DC. A relative in the medical field said that the medical facility where she works was told to send all their anthrax vaccine to another facility - she didn't have any to send. If the DC area isn't prepared, do you think your town or city is?
posted on September 12, 2001 12:14:42 PM new
Wondering if bearmom's plan for genocide includes the aviation and security officials here in America whose short-sightedness, complacency and laxity left holes in our national security big enough to fly four planes through.
The terrorists told us they were going to do it. They've been telling us for years. Since there's no reasoning with such individuals, it was up to us to a)eliminate them altogether, or b) make it impossible for them to attack us on such a major scale. The US failed miserably in both respects.
posted on September 12, 2001 12:18:07 PM new
Victoria, Excellent post.
KRS so very good to see you!
Yesterday when I saw those planes fly into the WTC I was filled with the same hate and desire to blow those MF off the face of the earth. Today my more rational self has returned. The people of Afghanastan do not deserve to be bombed or anhillated because of the actions of the few. They are suffering much over there already since the Taliban took over. Woman have been treated terribly since then and no one has done anything to help. Would bombing them now do any good? No. Go in and get the terrorists themselves but to bomb innocents makes us no better than the terrorists. Same with the Palestinians. They have suffered too ,as well as the Isralies. They all suffer over there and why they are fighting is beyond me. I do not understand why people cannot get along. Catholics and Protestants in Ireland.The people of the Eastern block coutries. They are all people. Why can't they solve their differences instead of murdering one another?
Maybe now is the time for the US to take a real stand. To get the people, the terrorists that are truly responsible for the great tragedy,while at the same time showing compasion to those that had nothing to do with it. Maybe we need to set an example and hopefully others would follow .
War needs to stop. STOP. This planet is so very small and we are so very fragile.There is no purpose to hatred and murder, not in the name of religion or retribution.
Things have to change,worldwide, or we as a species are doomed. We need to behave as civilized as we claim to be.
posted on September 12, 2001 12:27:53 PM new
Here is some light for some of the heat. Will we bomb Pakistan - a Muslim country ? Nope - it is too late because they have Nukes. The article link below is partially an example of what I have been talking about. These terrorist cells can not and do not exist independently of the islamic countries that covertly or overtly support them. The terrorists are an unofficial arm of their foreign policy.
While they publicly condem and offer condolences, they are covertly supporting these suicidal murderers.
We can not just go in and stragetically hit them here or there. The force used must be overwhelming and leave nothing or any one standing.
Anything less and our children and grandchildren are doomed.
edited to add- the only thing I would like to hear from Bush is that the countries of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan no longer exist, we will be sending in occupying forces as soon as the radio activity levels subside.
posted on September 12, 2001 12:28:36 PM newdonrob2-Unfortunately, they may not have given us their (whoever "their" is) best shot.... quite a lot of talk over the past several years has been about what could/would happen if these terroist were to unleash something biological.
Do I believe we need to extract retribution?
Well, the ones physically responsible are dead already. How do you punish a dead man? Is that enough? Do we now have to decide if they acted alone or if someone else came up with the plan? Was it just a small group, a really large group or was it a combination of groups? Did they "practice" their plan? Where did they practice? Have they been funded by someone? If so, who did the funding? When will we be satisfied that all those involved have been brought to justice? Is REAMOND correct???? Once we get started, can we afford to stop before we have hunted down and destroyed every single terrorist or would-be terrorist?
I could go on and on, but I hope you see what I am saying. Once Pandora's box is opened, we may not be able to close it again. Are you ready for the consequences of opening the box????? Worse yet, has it been opened already?????
Perhaps it is time to re-align our way of thinking and even our way of life.
Does that make me an umpatriotic American who should be put on a boat to hell immediately? I hope not. I love this country. I don't want to see it turned into piles of ruble, shore to shore. I don't want to see thousands turned into tens-of-thounds or hundreds-of-thousands and that is what a terroristic war could mean!
Does that mean we must go and wipe out anybody that does not conform to our way of thinking, acting or reacting? Do we eliminate anything that might be a threat before it has a chance to actually become a threat? Does it mean we announce to the world that we are going to exact our revenge, so they should just stay out of it or we'll take them out too? Guilt by association???? I don't know. That is probably what frightens me the most. Where do we draw the line?
I don't know who's ideas are right and who's are wrong, I just know I don't want a world war, and I don't want my country blown apart or ravaged with disease. I also happen to have a nuclear power plant 6 miles from my town and I don't want to glow in the dark! Am I wrong to feel this way????? Maybe, but that is how I feel and I can't deny it......
posted on September 12, 2001 12:29:15 PM new
This thread is pure emotion. Some feel pain & compassion, while others feel rage. All normal reactions to a tragedy of this magnitude, something most of us have never experienced before and God willing will never have to again.
For those NOT filled with anger, you are lucky, but no better or worse than those who are, just a different type of emotional person. If you can find compassion for those being unfairly verbally attacked (the Arab postal workers, those in the neighborhood who might be Arabs, etc.) Then can you not find the same compassion, or at the very least understanding, for those whose emotions fill them with rage? If this type of emotion was easy to control the country wouldn't be filled with road rage / air rage incidents and scores of anger management counselors. I cannot speak for other posters, but I can say that my first post here was filled with hate, hate for the person/persons responsible for this attack, at this point a faceless enemy. My God, yesterday morning we awoke to a bright new day & today the city is in shambles, the Pentagon continues to burn & thousands of lives were snuffed out and millions of people effected. My shock turned to sorrow and as the magnitude of the atrocity sunk in, my anger grew. Would I take to the streets to burn & pillage?....To attack the first Middle Eastern person that I came upon?....NO....I posted my feelings (at the moment) on an internet board that I frequent. Does that make me a hateful monster?....Not IMO, just a human being twisted in by a horrific act. Perhaps compassion should start at home!
For the record, I do believe that the USA MUST do something. We, as a nation, have been the victims of several attacks (the embassys, the Cole) that went unanswered. I don't know how or when but we MUST make it known that we will NOT sit back and allow these attacks to continue.
posted on September 12, 2001 12:41:38 PM new
Many feel like something must be done. Done to whom???? We still do not know who did this. The ones who actually did the hijacking or dead! Just who are we suppose to bring to justice? Do we really have to be reduced to punishing by association?
posted on September 12, 2001 12:50:03 PM new
My posts haven't had anything to do with hate. I have only posted what I have found to be the only way we can maintain our security and way of life.
Are there peaceful and "humanitarian" ways to procede? Sure are, but you had better be ready to give up your way of life and freedom.
These snake countries can be destroyed now. But if we wait too much longer, we won't have the option of destroying them and will be faced with the choice between domination or our own destruction.
I think the post is self explanatory. Army personnel are "on the line" as much as Marines. You are the one who made the comment about them not being "on the line".
You still haven't answered the question.
Sulyn,
The box is already open and has been for years. It just came a bit closer to home yesterday.
You say you don't want death and destruction to come to America. Do you believe that it will stop now if we do nothing? Do you believe that the kind of people who perpetrate things like yesterday's attacks will be impressed by our lack of response or will they simply see it as a weakness to be exploited?
If they have CBW or nuclear capabilities, I believe the only thing that keeps them from using them is the fear of what kind of retribution THAT would bring.
I will rephrase the question:
Is ANY response due against those who perpetrated, aided or supported yesterday's events?
posted on September 12, 2001 01:19:08 PM new
krs,
I missed your comment about inaccurate. The figures cited come the Department of Defense
publication DEFENSE '91, published , not surprisingly, in 1991.
You may want to take your complaint to them but I think they're a bit busy right now.
[ edited by donrob2 on Sep 12, 2001 01:20 PM ]
posted on September 12, 2001 01:23:02 PM new
More buffoonery:
Channel 4 in New York is reporting that yesterday morning at JFK, three Arabic men boarded a Los Angeles-bound plane and somehow caused a disturbance (unspecified) significant enough for the crew to order the men to leave the plane. The three Arabic men refused to leave. Port Authority police were called to remove the men from plane. Once the men had been removed, the New York police were called. It's unclear what happened next, but by the time the NYPD arrived, the three men had vanished. No one knows where they went.
posted on September 12, 2001 01:29:49 PM new
Sulyn,
As Donrob2 said, " The box is open", and it's open wide. Do you think the people that flew the planes wouldn't use a nuke, or chemicals, or biological weapons? It will happen sooner, or later, if we allow it to happen. Look in the box, Sulyn. You will see the faces of thousands of your countrymen, whose lives were snuffed out.
Should we destroy the Arab nations? Of course not, but I feel we have to destroy a portion. We MUST send a message to these rouge nations to clean up their acts. They do what they do, because they can and there will be no response.
They hate this country. The reasons don't matter, at this point. We can't make them love us, but we can make them fear us.
posted on September 12, 2001 01:44:36 PM newThat is why we are forced to either to go in and destroy it all, just as we started to do to Iraq, or live in a police state like Israel.
What a surprise to see the fallacy of the false alternative being exercised. Characterizing the spectrum of responses and outcomes as a simple and invalid either/or choice is always a good way to shed more heat than light.
-gaffan- [email protected]
posted on September 12, 2001 01:45:57 PM new
To paint all of Islam with the same brush as the radical Islamic fundamentalists such as Osama Bin Laden is absurd. The great majority of Islamic believers have no more regard for terrorism than we do.
The Palestinian/Israeli conflict, and America’s involvement in that conflict through our aid to Israel and policies towards Iraq are not the chief motivator for Osama Bin Laden. He is much more concerned with the U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia and how this frustrates his desire to overthrow the Saudi government and establish a radical fundamentalist Islamic government such as we see in Iran.
According to this article (Bin Laden is out to get America), which I believe to be well reasoned and amply supported by Bin Laden’s own statements, the Palestinian/Israeli conflict serves as a good propaganda smokescreen to dress up his true aims. And the article is also correct in it’s history lesson, the lesson that extremists attacks have increased every time peace efforts have progressed.
The article comes from the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism. This group bills itself as a “think tank” on counter terrorism. However, since one of its Board of Directors is an ex-director of the Israeli Intelligence Agency (Mossad) and another is an ex-senior official of the Israeli Foreign Affairs Division and of the Prime Minister’s Office one might suspect that they have a somewhat polarized view of the topic. But I believe this to be an accurate and insightful analysis of Osama Bin Laden’s goals.
posted on September 12, 2001 01:50:54 PM newArmy personnel are "on the line" as much as Marines...who made the comment about them not being "on the line".
donrob2, that's not what he meant. I know what he meant (I think) and he has a point. Not everyone that that's served in the Army (or the Marines for that matter) has had to serve in combat. Unless "you've been there" you don't understand what it's like, or what it does to even the survivors.
If that's not what he meant, then I don't understand his point.
posted on September 12, 2001 01:58:24 PM new
I, too, am a peace-loving person. I, too, do not wish to see a war.
Unfortunately, war was brought to us.
I don't believe that we should "wipe-out" all Islamic culture everywhere.
However, I do believe that if the terrorists involved were deployed by an Islamic group, we should go after that group with everything we've got. And if a country or countries shelter those terrorists, aid & abet them, and refuse to give them up, then that country or countries should face the consequences.
We've "got to understand why it was done? I really don't care if it was done because the terrorist group in question had a traumatic experience during toilet training, don't like our politics, or are offended by our lifestyle. What matters is that it *was* done. War *was* brought to us.
The solution is difficult so let's just not do anything is what I'm hearing from some. Suck it up, be understanding, see our attacker's POV, turn the other cheek...maybe if we grovel nicely enough the bad men won't do it again.
When a nation gets to the point where it can't defend itself or its citizens don't care enough about it to come to its defense when its attacked, then that nation is doomed. It's the natural order of things that another, stronger, more vigorous culture will take it over. I, for one, am not ready for that to happen to my country.
posted on September 12, 2001 02:05:43 PM new
Suppose replacing the word "war" with "horrible crime and conspiracy". Someone committed this crime, but wars are fought between nations.
