posted on October 18, 2001 07:55:31 PM new
I'd like your honest, not-necessarily-PC, unfettered-by-rhetoric, personal responses to these two questions:
1) How do you define patriotism for yourself?
2) How do you express it in your life/community/etc.?
And, if you can explain why what you do -- or do not do -- seems patriotic to you, that would be especially appreciated.
posted on October 18, 2001 08:29:46 PM new
It is more than waving the flag.
I think it has to do with loving your country enough to be willing to go where and when it needs you to go.
It's somewhat like unconditional love, I can love the country even when I don't like or trust the current leader.I believe in the foundations of America enough to know it will survive any one mans political term.
(please don't crab at me for bush bashing I'm not talking about any particular politition)
This country has survived a lot of bad decisions and vile policys (slavery for example)that it's leaders supported. It always seems to survive and come out stronger in spite of the troubles.
I served my country that is how I showed my love for it.
I think like love your going to get many varied definitions for patriotism and also like love there are probably many different ways to show it.
posted on October 18, 2001 08:31:57 PM new
I care enough about this country to stay informed and help as many people as I can. I am very careful about voting and being informed about all candidates, even local ones.
I have a problem with too much patriotism. Too much devotion to a country or a religion or even yourself can be counter productive.
I wonder if such exaggerated devotion can result in less respect for other countries, other religions and other people.
I like this observation by George Bernard Shaw...
"You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the world."
posted on October 18, 2001 08:43:55 PM new
"I think like love your going to get many varied definitions for patriotism and also like love there are probably many different ways to show it."
Tegan, you are absolutely right, and I'd like for this thread to be utilized as a place where any and all of us can state what our version of patriotism is without any "bashing" or denigration of views. This is America -- we are entitled to our opinions. And I want to hear as many as I can...
Helen, your expressed need to "stay informed" runs very close to one section of my own brand of patriotism ( -- which I am purposely withholding so as not to set a "tone" for this thread).
posted on October 18, 2001 11:01:13 PM new
Are these two questions so offensive/intrusive -- mundane, even -- that no one else will answer them?
There's been a lot of flag-waving and "America-right-or-wrong" sentiment expressed in various threads here in recent days. This thread was created as an opportunity for people to examine/expound upon those [sometimes vague] patriotic views they've expressed in other sections of this forum that didn't specifically ask for personal interpretations of what it means to be a patriot.
Could it be that most of us have no words -- no foundation we can put into words -- for our hit-and-miss-"patriotism"?
posted on October 18, 2001 11:14:18 PM new
I'd have to think about it but two that pop into mind are
1. Being informed as Helen said. Voting and knowing what and who you are voting for.
2. Obeying the laws of the land.
3. (I thought of another one) Giving back to the community..cleaning up a corner lot, being a foster parent, feeding the homeless, helping a neighbor..tons of different things one could do but doing something for other people.
Boy I wish this baby would go to sleep
Oddish~ The Odd One
posted on October 18, 2001 11:25:57 PM newI'm thinking,I'm thinking!
Patriotism means something different to me than it used to . When I was young it was flag waving and "my country right or wrong".
Now my patriotic leanings are different. I agree with Helen about staying informed . Voting is important and trying to be a part of the democratic process. I also think being patriotic means to watch the government and keep it from stealing our freedoms away.[which it is doing at a rapid pace lately] It means to be prepared to fight for the rights and freedoms we have and VOTING in people who do not want to take them away. It means loving your country but not being blind to what the government and your fellow citizens ar doing both here and abroad.
Rambling...sorry Posted under the influence of cranberry juice.
posted on October 18, 2001 11:26:54 PM new
A man running into direct fire to grab the flag from his fallen comrades hands so it never hits the ground.
As hard core as it sounds ,that is the spirit and dedication that speaks to the soul of every American and has been done many times so we can be here in comfort typing our opinions and enjoying freedom.
posted on October 18, 2001 11:47:03 PM new Oddish and Rawbunzel, thank you for your personal views.
Breiny, please delve deeper than your response to acts of patriotism which you already perceive to have occurred. What is it that makes you a patriot? How do you play it out?
Reiterating: I promise, folks, this threadwas created so that we might discover howtruly linked we are in our understandingof "patriotism"...
posted on October 19, 2001 12:31:30 AM new
Thanks, S-Kitty, your answer does address my two questions. I will go so far as to infer that your answer explains why you do what you do.
And I know you've got family members on call for the front lines at this time, and I wish them safe passage and Godspeed in their swift return home.
Email me if ya ever get desperate and need a good rant; you know I love ya, J...
posted on October 19, 2001 12:33:20 AM newFoppie: Got an email from my brother-he expects to be called up any day now. Kitten is slated to go directly overseas after he leaves boot. My heart is breaking.
posted on October 19, 2001 12:37:12 AM new
I will try plsmith. I am not reading anyone else's response before composing mine.
1) How do you define patriotism for yourself?
I have not been very "patriotic" in the outward sense in a long time. There were quite a few years that I have refused to pledge allegiance to the flag for instance. I have questioned it because my allegiance is to something else and in recent years I have not see America representing any of the values that I would hold allegiance to. I have been angry at the government and what it represents. Stuff like Tim McVeigh was mad about and denial of states and individual rights and wasteful spending, and corrupt and immoral leaders, etc.
Only a few weeks ago, I did stand there with my hand over my heart for the first time in
years but I felt really odd and I could not say the words. I felt like a traitor to my
convictions. But that does not mean that I am unpatriotic, it just means that America often does not represent what I believe it should stand for.
For me, patriotism represents what America was about to the people who settled it. It's about my ancestors coming to America to find a better life. Why they came here, I am not
exactly sure but most likely to avoid starvation in Ireland. So my patriotism roots actually begin somewhat later when they moved from the north to NC and then later to the South in search of a better life and vast areas of undeveloped land where they could live in peace. It's about the actual soil that America is built on. It's about the freedom to live without being dictated to as to how to raise your kids or what to think or feel. It's about the freedom to worship. I believe in the right of citizens to arm themselves as a balance of power. I believe a man (or woman's) home is their castle and their land is their nation. All people should have the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. I believe that America was founded on a belief in God and moral values and work ethics that have been long forgotten. I believe that all people are equal before God and are entitled to the same rights.
So my patriotism wears thin because I don't see much of America representing what
patriotism means to me anymore.
2) How do you express it in your life/community/etc.?
I always try to respect the rights and freedoms of my neighbors and my fellow citizens in the same way I would want to be done to me. I bought and helped to plant 3000 trees because this land is all we (Americans) have. I teach my kids to show concern and care and love for others but not to conform to watered down and distorted values; and hopefully how to stand up for their rights and convictions. I teach them the value of our physical country and it's natural resources and it's history especially as it pertains to them. I teach them that all
people are created equal in God's eyes but that they were born "advantaged" in comparison to most of the world's children, that it is their duty to share and give from what they are blessed with. Finally, I often actively use my freedom of speech, as well as my buying power and my vote, to urge what I believe to be right, and just, and sound for America without regard to the popularity of my beliefs...because that is democracy.
posted on October 19, 2001 03:00:50 AM new
I'm not too eloquent at this hour of the morning, plsmith, but I really like the way you expressed yourself, and the tone of acceptance in this thread of more than one personal definition of patriotism.
Inwardly, patriotism to me are the feelings and guiding principles I have that express the very high value I place on my nation and it's people. Pride, commitment to values and freedom, commitment to action when needed, are some of the many feelings I have.
Outwardly, my patriotism is expressed by various actions that support those feelings and principles. That covers everything from the flag we display in front of my house every day, to voting pursuant to my values and principles, to staying informed on current issues that affect us all, and working to achieve progress and change when I believe they are needed, and volunteering for community service (I was a foster parent to many kids over several years) and now we help provide elderly assistance.
last but not least, I have a deep abiding feeling of gratitude towards and respect for those who protect and serve our country.
My thanks and sympathy goes out to you and your family, S-kitty. {{Shadowcat}}
posted on October 19, 2001 05:53:30 AM new
I love my country. I think that makes me a patriot.
I don't always love its leaders. Nor do I always agree with them. But because of our system, these leaders are transient, and don't affect my feelings for my country.
I don't believe in, "America, love it or leave it." I believe in, "America, love it or change it." I believe in civil disobedience. I believe that changing America w/in the system is just as valid. This includes voting.
Flag waving and blind worship of a leader doesn't make me think of a person as a patriot.
Would I defend my country? I'd like to think so. I hope I would be brave enough. I'm getting older though so I might not be brave - Canada is always an option.
As long as the principles I love about this country remain intact, I'll remain a patriot. If the freedoms I think are important are eroded to nothing, I'll have allegiance to nothing. It is after all, the principles that make America America - not the real estate.
I don't express it in my community or life except that I show up on election days to vote.
posted on October 19, 2001 06:54:32 AM new
How do you define patriotism for yourself?
I'm not a flag waver. I don't pledge allegiance. But I try to stay informed about candidates, issues, and politics. I've never missed the chance to vote - even in local elections - since 1971. I pay my taxes honestly to various levels of government and give my time to our local government occasionally.
How do you express it in your life/community/etc.?
I've become active in local issues several times - expressing my opinions to local politicians, going to court in support of neighborhood taxing districts, volunteering on local advisory boards, entering data for the Red Cross, volunteering with the local government's gypsy moth program.
posted on October 19, 2001 07:01:21 AM new
I am wondering where are all the patriots who believe that all desenting opinions about our Bush administration should be hushed during this "war".
I would like to know your feelings about patriotism. Hell, when I questioned the apparent lack of a visible president after the terrorist attack on the WTC and the Pentagon I was attacked by a number of people .
Remember when Bush was traveling around the country like a jackrabbit
and sent his secretary out to read a statement and NOT answer questions?
I hope that some of you, who believe in silence during such periods of crisis will take this opportunity to express your feelings about patriotism. Why should freedom of speech be supressed during a crisis. How is this linked to your view of patriotism.
Why are you people who jumped on me being so quiet now?
posted on October 19, 2001 07:33:56 AM new
Hi, Helen. I'll field that one. LOL!
I don't think of myself as a patriot. I didn't volunteer for military service. I don't believe in saying the Pledge of Allegiance in classrooms. I have plenty of criticisms about the government. I do believe the USA is the greatest country on earth, though I could probably be happy living in Europe.
As for speaking against the government during times or war, it is a simple issue of morale. We should support our troops. It is very demoralizing for our troops to lack support from home. It is true that not all wars are just, but on the other hand, not every war is a Vietnam. It's not so much a free speech issue as simply a matter of tact and respect.
P.S. I'm sorry if it seems like I was jumping on your case. You're an outspoken poster, as are many of us. I'm sure you understand that puts you on the "front lines." No matter how pointed the discussion, to me it's just chat.
posted on October 19, 2001 07:50:19 AM new
Twinsoft LoL
Thank you for your answer...Although you may have at one time or another jumped on my case or on a case that I believed in, you were not among the group that I am referring to. This incident occurred before the declaration of war. The date was September 11.
I'm sorry if I have gone off topic a little bit. But I was hoping to hear from those people who believe that war is sacred and that our country right or wrong should prevail during periods of war.
This attitude is affected by patriotism so the subject is not too far fetched.
So please continue as before with you concept of patriotism and the topic as presented by plsmith.
America has been comfortable for so long that we seem to lack a solid common cause or any real basis for unity. Regions of America alone vary so much that they seem sometimes like different nations within one border.
Plsmith, I know you are in search of the common thread that holds us all together.
I hope you find it.
posted on October 19, 2001 10:11:34 AM new
Patriotism as I see it in myself, is a never ending learning process. It is knowing that my thoughts are the only true freedom I have. It is God given to me and it has no preference. I belong to the American Race. I'm a mixture of colors. I have no other alligence or consider myself from any roots other then being an American.
I have now expressed my thoughts to all on this board. I have now must become accountable and responsible for the act I have just committed. My true Freedom has ended.
How do you express it in your life/community/etc.? Being accountable, responsible for my acts.
Hi Plsmith Sorry it took me a bit to respond. I waited patiently for something truly profound to come to me and it never happened. I'll just say that I believe that true patriotism requires an allegience to the country that is backed up by my actively seeking the truth about our government - the good, bad and ugly. I think it's our responsibility to seek the facts and to look at issues from all angles before making conclusions as to the right/wrong of past decisions. This seems especially needed during this time of war when there are so many rumors and misinformation floating around.
I've never been very vocal or visible with my patriotism. I've written letters to my representatives and vote... other than that I don't get too involved. I'd say our work in the Search and Rescue community is about as close to a patriotic "action" as I guess I could lay claim to. And, I'm not sure that's necessarily considered technically patriotic as much as it's just something we do.
posted on October 20, 2001 01:27:05 PM new
Very interesting responses, everyone, and thank you for taking the time to post so thoughtfully.
Many of you echoed my own sentiments about patriotism... when I get right down to it, my answer to Question 1 is the same as my answer to Question 2:
I'm a law-abiding citizen. I do not (nor would I ever) seek to overthrow the government of the U.S. I take my approval/disapproval of its governance to the voting booth, letters to my representatives in the House and Senate, campaign donations, even door-to-door "stumping" when I feel strongly about a candidate -- especially local ones.
As the palette of people has grown and varied in this country and in my neighborhood, I've made it a point to learn about other cultures; I visit predominantly recent-immigrant-based communities in the Bay Area to get a sense of their lives and lifestyles (and try the food!) That's part of what it means to be "American" to me: to be welcoming.
Recently -- and more than ever -- I've been reading American history. And while there's plenty in our past that is ugly and shameful, there's also a wealth of goodness, of correction, of attempts to "get it right".
There's nowhere else on earth I'd rather live, and yes, I'd like to think that if I were called upon to defend this country and what it stands for with my life that I would do so. And proudly.
posted on October 20, 2001 01:48:19 PM new
"I think how ever it was late and I was so tired I click on the clear button instead of the post reply button,"
I hate when that happens, Dman! And yes, very good thoughts have beenexpressed in this thread...
posted on October 20, 2001 03:42:30 PM newI'd like to think that if I were called upon to defend this country and what it stands for with my life that I would do so. And proudly.
Until the terrorist attacks I had never given a lot of thought as to whether I would personally be willing to put myself in harms way to defend this country. I've read a lot about our previous wars and have mourned the loss of so many but never considered whether I would be able or willing to do what so many others have done before me. After much thought, I'm sure that I would have no problem whatsoever putting my own life on the line for the USA - but, I have to admit that I when look at my innocent 12 year old son... who loves to dress up in army gear and "save" the world - I can't let myself imagine what it would feel like to know he was going into battle... What a tremendously huge sacrifice we ask of all parents who send their sons and daughters off to war.
posted on October 20, 2001 03:44:26 PM new
Patriotism to me is emotional...I love and respect the American ideal.
I believe that I, as an individual, need to do what I can to meet that ideal, to accept that while never fully attainable there is always ways to improve.
I stay informed, form opinions and most of all I speak out. To silence voices, opinions...is to silence the ideal that this nation stands for.
I will sacrifice for this country...we all will. It is our responsibility to make sure that these sacrifices serve to make America a better place.
, thanks to my upbringing.
