posted on October 19, 2001 02:48:11 PM new
I have read that most women choose to wear burqas. There are more oppressive issues to be concerned about. Education for women
is discouraged because the taliban cannot afford to educate both men and women and as in the US past, women are relegated to stay barefoot and pregnant.
posted on October 19, 2001 03:40:04 PM new
Actually it was not too many years ago that 40% of the doctors in Afganistan were women. Now those same women are not allowed to practice medicine. Jess
posted on October 19, 2001 05:02:23 PM new
There were some women on Oprah a week or so ago that had fled Afganistan when the Taliban took over. One was a young woman who was in medical school. Suddenly she became a prisoner in her own house because she did not even own the clothing required and could not leave her house to go and buy them. She was also disallowed from continuing her education. I believe my memory is correct that her male relatives finally managed to smuggle her out of the country and to America. She said things are better here but to be torn from your home and family was a horror of it's own.
posted on October 19, 2001 05:11:25 PM new
I am reading a book about the Taliban. While interviewing a member of the Taliban govt, the reporter asked Qalamuddin what justified the Taliban's ban on women from working and going to school. He replied, "We will be blamed by our people if we don't educate women and we will provide education for them eventually, but for now we have serious problems, he replied. "There are security problems. There are no provisions for separate transport, separate school buildings and facilities to educate women for the moment. Women must be completely segregated from men. And within us we have those men who cannot behave properly with women. We lost two million people in the war against the Soviets because we had no Sharia law. We fought for Sharia and now this is the organization that will implement it. I will implement it come what may, " Qalamuddin said emphatically.
He said that when the Taliban first entered Kabul, the religious police beat men and women in public for not having long enough beards or not wearing the burkha properly.
Taliban by Ahmed Rashid (correspondent for the Far Eastern Economic Review and the Daily Telegraph reporting on Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia.)
posted on October 19, 2001 05:20:14 PM new
The plight of the Afghan women and Afghan society as a whole began well before the Taliban arrived. Twenty years of continuous warfare has destroyed Afghan civil society, the clan community and family structure which provided an important cushion of relief in an otherwise harsh economic landscape. Afghanistan has one of the lowest rated indices for the human condition in the world. The infant mortality rate is 163 deaths per 1,000 births...18percent the highest in the world . A quarter of all children die before they reach their fifth birthday.
1,700 mothers out of 100,000 die giving birth. Life expectancy for men and women is just 43-44 years old.
posted on October 19, 2001 05:27:47 PM new
The irony of the burqa situation, re Afghanistan's Taliban, which requires women to wear them, and Turkey, which prohibits women from wearing them, is that in both cases the rule makers claim the desire to protect women as the basis for limiting women's choices.
When does the focus shift from telling women what they can and cannot do, in the interest of "protecting" them, to letting them do what they want and looking to what they're supposed to be protected against? In that light, I can't hardly see that Turkey is much different in its thinking than the Taliban.
posted on October 19, 2001 07:55:39 PM new
Another thought, here: How afraid would you have to be of a group of people, how terrified of their power, to force them to be invisible? What does that say about the wussy men over there? The worst example of macho gone 'way over the edge, gone mad. --Adele
posted on October 19, 2001 08:18:40 PM new
"Another thought, here: How afraid would you have to be of a group of people, how terrified of their power, to force them to be invisible? What does that say about the wussy men over there? The worst example of macho gone 'way over the edge, gone mad."
Don't go too far in that direction, there are plenty of religious strictures that can be construed to relegate women to a lesser status, and not just in Islam. For example, in the Greek Orthodox religion, it's a serious breach if a woman steps on the altar, but okay for a male. Or, Roman Catholocism where a woman can't be a priest. Or, a prohibition against ever shaking hands with a woman, lest she be menstruating. You can probably think of lots of other examples.
These aren't viewed by us as over the edge or gone mad or oppressive of women or, at least, not the extent that we're ready to jump on the burqa thing.
posted on October 19, 2001 10:08:47 PM new
Yes, Donny...we were too quick to jump on the men
It seems that anything cultural is considered anti-Islamic.
The interesting thing is that Iran issued the toughest defence of women's rights under Islam. The Islamic world declined to condem the Taliban's extremism. Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the Arab Gulf states have never issued a single statement on the need for women's rights .
Well, this thread is about the burka and I don't think that anyone can conclude that wearing such a garment is mistreatment.
The burka is seen as protective by both the women and men.
The covering is to avoid sexual attraction and protection from rape, for example. Some men there have done nothing but fight since they were 12 years old and many have no family. There is some fear that the army recruits would be weakened and subverted by the possibility of sexual opportunities and not fight with the same zeal.
posted on October 20, 2001 04:53:08 PM new
Helen, get real. Such an explanation wouldn't pass muster here. No one is concluding that "wearing such a garment is mistreatment". Making it a matter of law is. Please don't pretend you'd be okay if your state made a law requiring you to wear one. It's not "good" for "them" because many of "them" don't like it. Even if 90% do like it, that's still hundreds of thousands of women who *don't* like it,.
Maloney wasn't saying "this is THE problem" she was giving a graphic depiction of how women's rights are violated in Taliban controlled Afghanistan, one that even dumbass men in suits could relate to. She could hardly stay home from Congress that day and not go to work to make the point.
BTW, this is only something I've heard, so if anyone can tell me if it's true I'd be interested. I heard that in most European countries wearing a burqa in public is illegal via the route that wearing a full body disguise in public is against the law. Because of terrorism.
posted on October 20, 2001 05:25:00 PM new
"...one that even dumbass men in suits could relate to."
Jeez, is it any wonder why James enjoys universal admiration among women at AW?
"BTW, this is only something I've heard, so if anyone can tell me if it's true I'd be interested."
There was a link I followed from the RAWA site some moons ago which was an open letter to (of all people!) Iranian-born CNN-reporter Cristiane Amanpour, in which she was called on the carpet for supporting some of present-day Iran's current policies toward women -- and burga(? sp) -wearing was a major point ridiculed by the author of the letter.
I'll look for it if you twist my arm..
edited for too much enjoyment
[ edited by plsmith on Oct 20, 2001 05:26 PM ]
I would like to get real....I've been reading books and trying my very best to understand this custom. The book that I have quoted is reliable, in my opinion. Do you have another source that I can read?
It would really be great to interview a woman from the Taliban community.
posted on October 20, 2001 06:19:02 PM new
I've been thinking how very easy it would be (has it happened already?) for Bin Laden to slither out of Afghanistan in a burqa. . . .
posted on October 20, 2001 06:29:49 PM new
A 6'5" woman?
Well, there aren't any women in 'the Taliban community' because 'Taliban' aren't women.
'Taliban' means 'religous student', which by definition are male. The ruling militia group in Afghanistan are called 'Taliban' because many or most of the ranks come from actual 'taliban' in the literal sense of the word.
I can't find you a link at the moment, but let me draw a parallel to another example of religous coercion imposed by the Taliban.
Beard length. I am sure many will argue that legislating minimum acceptable beard lengths is 'fine for Afghans', but how do those imposed by that law think of it? Chew on this:
"I don't approve of the way the Taliban behave. I cut my beard as soon as I got here. It was very long. We feel free now because when we were there, we were always under threat if our beards weren't long enough.
I can't swear it's an exact parallel, but that is what coercion is. If one Afghan women is not interested in wearing a burqa, it is not okay. Bottom line though, the issue isn't the burqa. That's just a graphic depiction of a much greater issue; oppression. The oppression happens in many ways ONE of which is the compulsion to dress in a certain way -- or else. Donny indicated that some poll or something claimed that 90% of Afghan women not under Taliban rule wear it voluntarily. Of course 100%-90%=10% who do NOT. So there is a problem affecting hundreds of thousands of women who don't want to wear what us condescending westerners have assumed is "fine for them", even when forced to wear it by law.
posted on October 20, 2001 06:49:50 PM new
Every summer during my son's teenage years I had the same argument with him - Don't go out bare-chested, wear a shirt. He whined and moaned - it's too hot, I don't like it, I get sticky and sweaty, there's nothing wrong with going around without a shirt on, blah blah. I'm sure as soon as he got out of my sight, he took off that shirt, threw it in the car or tied it around his waist, and went around barechested.
I never had this argument with my daughter.
Let's say that 90% of American women who had the choice would decide they didn't want to go around bare-chested, they'd choose to wear a shirt. But that's still 10% who are being forced to wear a shirt. Are we outraged?
This burqa thing is being hyped by us for propoganda purposes, and it's just a photo-op for Maloney.
Her point would have been better proven by, as you suggested, her staying home to parallel how Afghani women under the Taliban can't go to work. But a picture of an empty chair isn't dramatic, it's not going to get her any publicity.
posted on October 20, 2001 06:56:24 PM new
Right, because Congress isn't already filled with empty chairs on any given day so her empty chair would be instantly recognizable for the symbolism.
In NYC a woman can walk around with her tits hanging out, so I haven't the foggiest notion what you mean.
posted on October 20, 2001 07:02:47 PM new
Well, I lived in NYC for quite a few years, and never saw a woman going around bare-chested in public. Hanging out mostly, yes... completely bare-chested, no.
But, I am going up there next week... What's the weather like? Should I leave all my shirts at home?
posted on October 20, 2001 07:06:43 PM new
Yes, Helen, I do...
"Let's say that 90% of American women who had the choice would decide they didn't want to go around bare-chested, they'd choose to wear a shirt. But that's still 10% who are being forced to wear a shirt. Are we outraged?"
Donny, I was. Once upon a time in my life (when my breasts were still aimed heavenward) I thought the laws which required me to cover them were unjust. I made a tired Berkeley patrolman chase me through People's Park in the late 1970's because I'd chosen to attend a picnic there a buffo from the waist up. A few years later I was sirened to the sidelines of the MacArthur Freeway (I-580) because I was travelling homeward (from San Francisco) shirtless on a particularly hot day.
I would like the opportunity to run around shirtless. It suits me. And the older I get, the more I want to do it, and the more unsuitable it becomes!
posted on October 20, 2001 07:13:21 PM new
"And the older I get, the more I want to do it, and the more unsuitable it becomes!"
That's life's cruel irony that can apply to so many things, isn't it?
"I thought the laws which required me to cover them were unjust."
And of course you're right, they are unjust. Although NYC allows it, I'm sure Georgia cities don't, and probably most other cities don't as well. Let's see Congressperson Maloney go to session bare-chested to protest that sartorial oppression of women. I bet she'd get twice the publicity she got with the burqa thing.
, I couldn't resist.
