posted on October 19, 2001 09:36:58 PM new
I believe that the point of the first post in this thread was that the person in question was not only heroic in working for 30 hours in the wreckage of the WTC (as all those who have done so have been called "heroes" ), but all displays heroic courage every single day dealing with those who can't bear for anyone to be different. Heroism isn't always about bravery on the battleground, or rescuing someone from a burning building--heroism also refers to those valiantly striving against the odds in daily life.
edited cuz of accidental winky
[ edited by bunnicula on Oct 19, 2001 09:59 PM ]
posted on October 19, 2001 09:40:09 PM new
pat, we are discussing the topic. I think. Just what IS the topic? The WTC? Depression? Sex gender change? Morons who abuse? Im still stumped.
posted on October 19, 2001 10:37:24 PM new
Well I finally made it back in here, and found exactly the kind of posts I expected from two specific posters who shall remain nameless. At first I decided I didn't need to post further, because I couldn't have posted any better words than Bunnicula, Spaz, Sadie, Saab, Snowyegret, Zoomin, Nutspec and Kraft already have. Thanks so much for your support of other human beings and your kindness.
But if I am going to say anything at all, I decided I better do it now, because I'm sure this post will soon be locked just like any other ones that have anything to do with Gay Lesbian Bi Trans rights and issues, because of the amount of hatred they attract. Pat (and all mods) please keep in mind I am speaking from the "I" point of view and not naming anyone directly in any attack. Having said that, it is in my own opinion that I sense such hostility from certain posters, not genuine caring questions or any kind of sincere interest in learning about Trans people, that I refuse to even address those posters. I was SO THRILLED to find the Miss France thread here, for two reasons: 1. It is the prime example of how I have already answered the same questions over and over and was still met with hostility and hatred anyway, and 2. I was looking all over for that thread because I actually hope to have it published one day in some of my work about bigotry in this day and age. I will include this thread as well. I will change the names to protect the guilty (and the innocent who may not want to be named).
As for why I started this thread to being with, I feel it is a sad statement that it even needs explanation. Anyway, here is my answer. See, I have these weird quirks - they're called Empathy and Compassion. I also like to learn about other people. I have spoken out on various threads to support all kinds of people. (See Hopeless Sinner's thread for example, where she supports the Black Community, and I love that, and I am as white, blond and blue-eyed as they come.) To answer the question regarding my intention with this thread, and to answer Ohandrea's question at the same time, my friend is not looking for "work that is less stressful than the WTC site". She was HAPPY to give of herself to go help during this tragedy. She is proud of what she has done and I am proud of her as well. Yes everyone who worked there is a hero, but the one I know happens to be a Transsexual hero. And I am telling the story of the one hero I know personally. Why I brought up her gender expression, and what struck me about our night at the movies, was that someone so brave, so willing to help her fellow human beings (someone who has NOT been treated well herself by other human beings), can still be so willing to reach out and help all kinds of people, yet can still be treated like total garbage on the street. Yes, of course if she were harrassed because she were obese, or black, or from any other group that is subject to oppression, I would be telling that story here. But I am telling THIS story here because THIS is the story that happened! My point was not only was she a hero at the WTC, but she is a hero to me because she finds the GOOD in people, no matter how badly she has been treated. And how sad I think it is that some people only look for the negative, hurt others on purpose, or just brush off the pain of others like "Bah, that's not a problem, we don't care about your pain."
It also struck me how my friend cried and cried, it took weeks for her to even smile again... and then some bigots have to come along spewing their hatred on the street, which under "normal" circumstances (meaning no terrorist attack) STINGS bad enough... yeah it hurts, like Spaz said, YEAH, IT DOES FREAKIN HURT, but to deal with that ON TOP of her digging for dead bodies for 30 hours, I mean come on, give the woman a break. I could only imagine, she must've felt like life was one big endurance test for her. I just pray to the gods all the time, please make people less hateful. Please make people less cruel.
Then I come in here and I see people like Zoomin and Bunnicula and Spaz and Kraft and Plsmith and all those I have named, and I feel so good that the gods have made so many wonderful people who WANT to understand new things and support other people.
Thanks you guys
(Edited for bad spelling)
[ edited by nycrocker on Oct 19, 2001 10:41 PM ]
posted on October 19, 2001 10:52:51 PM new
Would Bunnicula, Spaz, Sadie, Saab, Snowyegret, Zoomin, Nutspec and Kraft (sorry, I swiped your list rocker) be willing to answer my question?
sense such hostility from certain posters, not genuine caring questions or any kind
BTW, this is not contingent on sexual orientation. Trust me.
[ edited by jt on Oct 19, 2001 10:57 PM ]
posted on October 19, 2001 11:10:16 PM newjt: I'll be happy to answer your question...What shaped your thinking about homosexuality in general?
If I had to point to the one thing that shaped my thinking on homosexuality, I guess I would have to say it was my mother--even though she never discussed it with me at all. But she did raise me to treat others as I'd want to be. To believe in equality for all. And to judge someone by what they do and not skin color or other superficialities. I guess along the way I expanded those superficialities to include homosexuality.
To me, a person is born a homosexual and that being the case, why make such a big deal of it? How is it threatening in any way? And if a person is born with the wrong body, what's so wrong about fixing the problem (trans-sexuality)?
But then, I am not a Christian, nor do I believe in any other god or religious system. That was another gift from my mother--she introduced me to religion per usual as a child, but then allowed me to think for myself and draw my own conclusions even though they differed from her own (she was *not* an athiest). And most if not all of the objections, problems and horror with homosexuality are fueled by religion.
edited to clarify a sentence.
[ edited by bunnicula on Oct 19, 2001 11:30 PM ]
posted on October 19, 2001 11:13:57 PM new
Many moons ago, a coworker of the tom's related his experiences helping with the recovery of remains from a plane crash in Italy. He described in graphic detail some of the things he saw, the smells, the feeling of unrelenting horror as he realized that with each step he took, he was probably walking on the very small bits of people. It had been ten years, he told us, but he still dreamed of walking along that mountainside and seeing bits of flesh dangling from tree branches.
We could see in his eyes, hear it in his voice, that he was reliving the entire time as he talked. Nothing in our experience could even come close to helping us fathom his distress. We didn't know what to say or what to do so we simply listened, even though listening to more was the farthest thing from our minds.
When he finished talking, we sat silently for several minutes. He was lost in his memories. We didn't know any suitable words for what we had heard and we didn't want to screw up by saying something inane. So there we sat.
Then he quietly thanked us, telling us we were the first people that let him talk about what had happened. After that, he never spoke of the incident again. Nor did we.
I don't know if us listening to him eased his soul but I hope so.
It's so hard to know how to comfort a friend who is or has experienced something so horrific that the rest of us can't even begin to imagine the wrenching pain they feel in their souls. We may not know what to do or what to say but I think that doesn't really matter as long as we're THERE for our friends.
Sometimes, being there is all we CAN do.
I'm glad you're there for your friend, NYCRocker, in all things.
Just as a point of fact, homosexuality and transgenderism/transsexuality are two separate things. Homosexuality is about sexual preference; transgenderism is about self-image. When nycrocker talks about her friend being transsexual, it's not about who the woman wants to be with in bed, but how she views herself as an individual.
Just like the rest of the population, a transsexual can be heterosexual, bisexual or gay.
posted on October 19, 2001 11:29:09 PM new
Zoomin -
[i] She seems like the type of a woman that doesn't give a rats azz what I think. All the more reason she may need to hear it?
My opinion isn't worth much, but it's all I have to offer today... [/i]
Oh contraire my dear... your opinion IS worth much, it is worth much to ME, ALWAYS!!! And I am SURE it will mean VERY MUCH my friend. Believe me. I will be VERY happy to tell her. I was going to send her this thread, but for obvious reasons, I suppose I should not do that now, huh?
posted on October 19, 2001 11:32:32 PM new
Ok, spaz. That complicates my use of vocabulary then so bear with me as I struggle.
And if a person is born with the wrong body, what's so wrong about fixing the problem?
So, would it be wise to assume that there needs to be more research into fixing the problem BEFORE birth? And that this should be addressed medically as a birth defect?
I am only addressing transgenderism.
(See, I can learn.)
[ edited by jt on Oct 19, 2001 11:37 PM ]
Added "medically".
[ edited by jt on Oct 19, 2001 11:39 PM ]
posted on October 19, 2001 11:39:51 PM new
I grew up in small towns in upstate NY. I was pretty bigoted until I was about 19 years old. I moved to San Francisco and lived there for 14 years. You have gay neighbors, friends, co-workers, etc. It stops being a "thing." It's just people being who they are.
posted on October 19, 2001 11:41:03 PM new
jt - I don't know if this is what you were asking for sure, but it used to be that psychologists, psychiatrists, etc. used to try to "fix" the mind to match the body. They had to finally admit this did not work. It worked to "fix" the body to match the mind most of the time.
And I'm sure Spaz will have an excellent answer for you because s/he is very knowledgable on this subject.
Spaz, by the way, I have a question for you... I don't know if these things work by which state you're in, or maybe by which doctor you see, but here in NY I don't know anyone who "has to" live full time for 2 years or anything like that. Is that still how it is where you are? It's usually the person's choice pretty much how they want to transition. All you need from most doctors I know is a letter from your therapist saying you are a good candidate for surgery and are capable of making the decision, etc. I finally saw MY surgeon by the way I checked first to make sure I would NOT be expected to live as male AT ALL, cos I don't identify as solely male, I told him I don't identify as ONE gender or the other, that I am bi-gendered, that I am certain I ONLY want top surgery (male chest reconstruction) and nothing else. No bottom surgery, no testosterone. He had NO problem with that and my therapist has no problem with the letter. It's all very simple, um, except for the 6 grand I need.
posted on October 19, 2001 11:42:26 PM new
Rocker - so much to deal with for your friend. I'm sure you're giving her the support she needs. Sometimes that's just listening, a smile, or a touch.
As for those guys they're probably the same ones that whistle and make sexual comments to women just walking down the street. No excuse for either. They're the ones with no class, and probably didn't volunteer for anything .
posted on October 19, 2001 11:55:17 PM new
teri - we must have been writing at the same time.
Yes, I believe you are born homosexual. Of course there might be a very small percentage of people who may choose the life. But, I think those people have other problems not having to do with sexuality.
posted on October 19, 2001 11:55:35 PM newAnd if a person is born with the wrong body, what's so wrong about fixing the problem?
I admit that this is one of the responses that I expected. I have thought on this for a long time after reading a medical journal some years back. The research indicated that in pregnant women in a certian trimester, if there was stress to the mother, there was a higher incidence of homosexuality among male off spring. I believe that that data was quickly refuted by the gay community. (I could speculate as to why but it would be a wild guess on my part so I will not.)
At any rate, reading that always left me with the feeling that someone was being cheated additional medical research into this issue for "political" (not really the word I am looking for but blank) reasons.
I just felt that IF it could be addressed as a birth defect, (if in fact it is always from birth) that lots of people could be spared the suffering and confusion that fixing (or living with in many cases) the problem later in life involves.
posted on October 19, 2001 11:57:25 PM new
Choco - High five baby!! That is EXACTLY what my friend said, she said she wonders if people like that volunteer for anything when they're needed. And I agree with you 100% about harrassment towards women on the street. I think that makes me angriest of all to tell ya the truth. I am so sick of it. There is no excuse for ANY harrassment, you said it!!!
Ya know, by the way, I was down at Javits Center and St Vincents Hospital the day after the attack, trying to volunteer for ANYTHING and they didn't need us there were SO MANY THOUSANDS of volunteers!! I was sad not to be able to do much, but I was happy SO many people had turned out, it was really amazing. People bonding all over the place. All of us different. Men, women, gay, straight, black, white, different cultures, different backgrounds... and all hanging together, deeply connecting with one another. It was so intensely moving, I cannot begin to describe.
jt - To me I feel I was born a lesbian. Most people I know are born this way and can't choose to be attracted to a gender they're not attracted to. When I was a teenager I dated guys and tried so hard to "be attracted" to "try to fit in". Oh boy did that NOT work.
If I could choose though, I wouldn't change, I like myself how I am and I have a really great life.
posted on October 19, 2001 11:58:27 PM new
jannie,
My knowledge is limited to what I read. If what I've read is out of date, then so's my information. Your own dealing with transsexuals every day as a counselor gives you access to much better information than I would ever have.
But I always thought the 2-3 year transition was something you couldn't get around. It was the only fail-safe to the whole process(even though it's far from foolproof). Look what happened to Sara R., one of the more familiar "regret" cases. She used to be all over shows like Current Affair when she was 17 saying she wanted a sex change soooo bad, then finally some rich guy came along and paid for her surgery. Two years later she shows up on the Maury Povich show crying about how it was the worst mistake she ever made, etc. I'm not sure, but I think she left the country for a quickie surgery in Thailand or Mexico. If she'd done the 2-3 year real life transition (or maybe even waited till she was a little older before making such a life-changing decision), maybe she wouldn't have found herself in such a fix.
It may well be that doctors are doing away with the transition requirement, but I think it's a mistake, personally.
[ edited by spazmodeus on Oct 20, 2001 12:01 AM ]
posted on October 20, 2001 12:02:26 AM new
jt -
[i] I just felt that IF it could be addressed as a birth defect, (if in fact it is always from birth) that lots of people could be spared the suffering and confusion that fixing (or living with in many cases) the problem later in life involves.
Does that make sense at all? [/i]
I don't think I understand. Are you talking about homosexuality as a birth defect?? Or being Transsexual as a birth defect?
posted on October 20, 2001 12:07:20 AM new
jt - In all seriousness, I have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about. "Denying future medical research?" HUH???
Homosexuality as a BIRTH DEFECT??
Either or Transsexuality OR Homosexuality?? First of all, they are COMPLETELY different.
posted on October 20, 2001 12:09:20 AM new
Transsexuality could be viewed as a birth defect, I suppose, depending on your viewpoint. The latest theorists say it's caused by trauma in utero, although the evidence is rather vague.
There's no question that it makes life difficult for the people who have it.
But then you could start asking, is genius a birth defect? It's something that sets people apart, makes them different from their peers ... so is that a birth defect? Or are things like genius, transsexualism, etc. natural albeit very rare products of human possibility?
posted on October 20, 2001 12:09:24 AM new
Teri - isn't the basic thing we all seek is to be happy with who and what we are? Are you saying there should be research because it's so awful to be homosexual that it needs to be fixed?
[ edited by bunnicula on Oct 19, 2001 09:59 PM ]
Thanks you guys
Rocker 
And I am SURE it will mean VERY MUCH my friend. Believe me. I will be VERY happy to tell her. I was going to send her this thread, but for obvious reasons, I suppose I should not do that now, huh? 
