posted on October 20, 2001 12:10:56 AM new
Let me make sure I understand. Are you saying you believe in finding out what "causes" Homosexuality - or Transsexuality - as if it is some "abnormality" that needs to be "cured"?
posted on October 20, 2001 12:12:56 AM new
That until there no longer First class and second class citizens of any nation
Until the colour of a man's skin Is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes..... bob marley
Rocker .....Please give your friend a hug for I and say Thanks
.
[ edited by HopelessSinner on Oct 20, 2001 12:13 AM ]
posted on October 20, 2001 12:16:58 AM newThey're the ones...probably didn't volunteer for anything.
Sounds like they volunteered to be jerks.
Usually after a disaster, there are droves of volunteers. However, most of them won't continue to volunteer as time goes by and the shock/need to do something wears off or they get burned out by the demand. That could be weeks or months down the road, but that's when the relief agencies will need volunteers again.
posted on October 20, 2001 12:18:58 AM new
I would never suggest that homosexuality could be interpreted as a birth defect, since there is no internal clash between body and mind. The only conflict is social.
posted on October 20, 2001 12:19:55 AM newcaused by trauma in utero
This is exactly what research said years ago, was denounced, and has come full circle again.
No choco. Mentally retarted people can certianly happy with who they are but yet we research it with prevention in mind. They certianly are not awful by any stretch of the imagination. Yet we as a society, due to their (general) inability to have any degree of political power as a body, decide FOR them that prevention should be the objective. If they had political power, such as the homosexual community does, they might not feel that they need "fixing".
posted on October 20, 2001 12:22:11 AM new
Choco LOL!! I think we were posting at the same time! Great minds think alike
HopelessSinner High Five
jt - there is PLENTY of medical research, plenty of psychological research, etc etc, and since I would guess it is safe to assume you have not spent 5 minutes as a homosexual and I have spent 41 years as one I guarantee you I know plenty more resources than you do on this subject. Want me to point you in the direction? Let's start with one of my favorites, "Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex" by Alice Domurat Dreger written in 1998. Granted, Hermaphrodites are not the same thing as Homosexuals or Transsexuals, but this book is a GREAT starting point to learn about sex, gender, and lots of what we are discussing here. Really REALLY interesting book. By the way, the modern word for "Hermaphrodite" is now "Intersex". But this woman did tons of research on gender and gender issues of the 18th century. REALLY amazing stuff, I kid you not. When you're done with that one, come back and I will give you an entire list.
posted on October 20, 2001 12:27:15 AM new
jt It hurts VERY badly if you are implying I should not have been born or people like me need to be wiped out. If this is what you are saying, I am asking you to please not post to this thread any further. This is really really hurtful.
I don't think heterosexuality is a birth defect that needs fixing or that heterosexuals need to be researched so we can wipe them off the planet forever.
Re: Transsexuality and Homosexuality - it is not a threat to the baby - it is a threat to the baby's CULTURE.
posted on October 20, 2001 12:34:50 AM new
Rocker, NO, I certianly do not think you should not have been born. Every person has great value.
But had you been born differently, you would be no less valuable and most likely no less happy with who you are.
My thoughts have nothing to do with you. You "are". They are only in reference to those who are "not yet". Their fate is not yet determined...or is it?
There are examples of homosexuality in many species throughout nature, and not just limited to mankind, so that would suggest to me that it most certainly is part of the natural scheme of things.
posted on October 20, 2001 12:44:27 AM new
Trying to rationalize why a person is born homosexual, transgender, etc. is like trying to rationalize why someone is born left-handed. They just *are*, and no amount of rationalization will change that fact(no matter how much some people hope it will).
We're talking people here, people, not freaks or mistakes. PEOPLE. Living, breathing, feeling, PEOPLE.
So what if they're different in some way or another? Aren't we all different in some way or another? And aren't we all just trying to muddle through our lives the best we can?
There's no "them" and "us". There's just us. But I know there are those who will never be able to come to terms with people who march to different drummers for whatever reason and for them, there will always be a "them" and "us" and the "them" will always be considered lesser/flawed.
posted on October 20, 2001 12:50:55 AM new
jt -
But had you been born differently, you would be no less valuable and most likely no less happy with who you are. They are only in reference to those who are "not yet". Their fate is not yet determined...or is it?
So why would you care if I were born differently, meaning "straight", right? What is this need YOU have (that I don't have) to make me and other gay people and unborn gay people straight? What color are your eyes? If they are brown, should all blue eyed babies be researched so they can cease to exist? After all, they ARE in the minority, so, the brown eyed people MUST be the "right" people.
Let me explain something to you. Being GAY is not the problem. Gay people have problems being HARRASSED BECAUSE they are gay. Therefore, doesn't the problem lie within the mind of the bigot?
I personally feel we need research on bigotry and on people who hate others and try to change others who are not like them. Maybe THAT could be stopped before birth.
I am outta here for tonight. I was in a good mood, now I'm really freakin depressed. This sucks.
Everyone else (you know who you all are) feel free to email me, I think I might decide to take a break from the boards for a while. I've been lucky enough NOT to encounter much hatred on the streets myself lately, so, I'm not gonna come in here and look for it. This sh*t really really hurts.
posted on October 20, 2001 07:01:07 AM new
Yes, He did. I am glad that you believe in God, Rocker and I am sure that He loves you has a very important purpose for you.
posted on October 20, 2001 07:16:40 AM new
jt, I just read this thread. I went to bed early last night.
To answer your question to me. As I've mentioned before, I grew up a "Yankee" in the South and later was the only female in my high school calculus class so I had an inkling of what it was like to be different. But I think basically that I don't try to pigeon-hole people and I like a variety of people. My parents shared the same attitude although they are more politically conservative than I am (well, at least my father is). Some of my close friends are lesbians and bi-sexuals. People are people. I know that sounds trite, but it's the common denominator. I often needle people to try to get them to see an issue differently and I'd certainly like to see less bigotry. But people are interesting to me and they don't have to take a test and pass.
posted on October 20, 2001 07:40:36 AM new
No where in this thread, or the other one, did I insult or get rude or talk down about people's sexuality. Instead, I have been the one ridiculed and accused of starting a fight, or am being "sore" for something Im still not sure about since I dont know anything about it. To ask, one must ask carefully, or they are seen as a bigot. To understand, one must ask. It depends on how the asking is done, I guess. What I DID say was I didnt care what was written on a bomb. I still dont. If that means that I am cruel, or evil, then someone (to borrow a phrase used on myself from elswhere) does not know me at all. I dont really care at this point what happened, because I can see very clearly that I have been "labeled" and no amount of questions or explanations will remove that label. If I need to ask or learn or understand, I will ask my friend, who is as knowledgable as others in this thread, and also knows I love him as who he is...regardless. Defending myself here seems to hit a brick wall, even though its plain to anyone who bothers to read all my remarks, in this one, the locked one, and the miss france one that I have always ASKED and have not insulted or name called.
So take whatever you need to that I said in this post, twist it around or ignore what I said in my posts and make it fit wherever you think it does in the grand scheme of things. Its out of my hands, but I know what I wrote and I know what I felt when I wrote it and those that know me, also know I am not what I am being painted as, by "someone".
posted on October 20, 2001 08:21:10 AM new
{{{hepburn}}} I just wanted you to know that I understand your questions about rocker's first post. You wondered why would sexuality be brought into the picture.
It was brought in to show the great stress that her friend was already dealing with on a daily basis.
To show that with hormones being in a flux her friend was already (probably) an emotional 'mess' with having to deal with the job out of necessity and hiding herself at work.
It was brought in to show that no matter what, her friend is so caring that she gave of herself without thought to her own unique set of problems.
It also MAY have been brought in to show the humanness of a transgendered person, to show that they are very caring and feeling people in an attempt to counter-act some of the hatred they receive, undeserved, on a daily basis.
Regardless of rocker's intention (and I don't mean to speak for her) I believe that this thread was not the place to question issues about sexuality.
Rocker needs support, kindness, love, and understanding right now as she attempts to help (volunteer) in any way she can to 'clean up' the mess made by hateful people. Rocker is doing one of the greatest services that a volunteer can do at this time, and that is to support (literally hold up) those volunteers who are putting their own life on the line to search for the missing. Those volunteers are going to wake up in the middle of the night for the rest of their lives remembering the horror they have experienced at ground zero---especially if they do not have a caring and loving friend like Rocker to be there for them and with them to listen and lean on.
This would have been a great gift from us to rocker's friend if she could have printed a very caring thread and given it to her, to show that we too appreciate the complete selflessness she has shown in giving of herself in any way she can. It could also have been a gift to rocker to know that we as her back-up support was there for her as she lives very closely to the horror every day.
{{{{{{{{{{Rocker}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Rocker's friend}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Thank you both for the very caring and selfless efforts you are putting forth in your individual lives to help right this wrong.
posted on October 20, 2001 08:29:51 AM new
I think that it's ok to bring up a sensistive topic here if that's what floats your boat but people who do this continuously and at the same time exhibit great sensitivity to comments on a public board are just asking for trouble.
Subjects such as sexual orientation, religion and abortion, are topics which some people hold strong opinions. To start such a topic on a public board requires a lot of conviction, information and courage to fight the battle without backing out and running home with you tail between your legs.
Maybe someone can answer this question for me. Why are people with strongly grounded positions in sex, religion or any other sensitive topic so very sensitive? It would seem to me that If I was ashamed of
my position or overly concerned about the opinions or questions of other people that I would keep my thoughts to myself.
These topics usually end with no resolution and with a lot of bad feelings. But then a few months later the same poster is back with the same subject that brings the same pain and confusion that was previously experienced. Then they announce that they are leaving...take their toys and run again. Is this a game?
posted on October 20, 2001 08:40:58 AM new
In this case, Helen, I see this thread as being started by someone who has experienced horrible, horrible, gut-wrenching tragedy right in their own 'back yard'. Someone who came here for the aid and comfort of the friends that care and for their own support.
Dissenters probably should have started their own thread.
Yes, it is a public board and people will interject what they will. It does tend to show what kind of person they really are though, don't you think?
posted on October 20, 2001 09:12:19 AM new
You're right Helen in that dissenters probably wasn't the best word to use, it has a negative connotation I didn't intend. I should have said 'questioners'.
You have a great day also, and hope you have the sunshine like we do.
posted on October 20, 2001 09:27:34 AM newIt would seem to me that If I was ashamed of my position or overly concerned about the opinions or questions of other people that I would keep my thoughts to myself.
In my two-plus years here at AW I have never read a thread by anyone who is "ashamed" of their position, and certainly not by nycrocker or anyone else who posted to this thread.
The notion of being "ashamed" is a contrivance introduced by you alone, hjw. It's just one of your typical incendiary comments, another of your thinly-veiled, feeble attempts to provoke an argument.
posted on October 20, 2001 10:13:12 AM new
No, Spaz
It was a serious consideration. I am very curious about why someone would react with such sensitivity or anger to innocuous questions such as the ones asked by Hepburn and terri.
I have not been following these threads and I don't know the people well, but it was my impression that Hepburn and Nycrocker were friends.
My remarks were sincerely felt. If my intention was to provoke an argument it would not be feeble or thinly veiled as you say. I am very straightforward and say what I mean.
posted on October 20, 2001 05:06:18 PM new
I have a question and I'm putting on my flame-retardent everything
I believe homosexuality to be a sin. However because I believe that I get accused of being hateful or homophobic or advocating violence etc. This baffles me as I'm non of those things. Homophobic unless I'm wrong would mean a fear or homosexuals right? What does not agreeing with something have to do with being afraid of it?
I would never in a million years advocate hurting another human being. I can disagree with something without wanting or advocating harm to come to someone. For instance, I also believe sex outside of marriage to be a sin but that is a personal belief of that action. I don't ask my friends if they engage in this, nor if I know about it does it effect our friendship in any way. If they ever ask my opinion I will tell them if not they probably have no idea I even feel that way.
I hope I'm not offending anyone or starting a fight but I've wondered this for a long time and it seemed like a good place to ask.
I guarantee you I know plenty more resources than you do on this subject. Want me to point you in the direction? Let's start with one of my favorites, "Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex" by Alice Domurat Dreger written in 1998. Granted, Hermaphrodites are not the same thing as Homosexuals or Transsexuals, but this book is a GREAT starting point to learn about sex, gender, and lots of what we are discussing here. Really REALLY interesting book. By the way, the modern word for "Hermaphrodite" is now "Intersex". But this woman did tons of research on gender and gender issues of the 18th century. REALLY amazing stuff, I kid you not. When you're done with that one, 
Rocker 
