posted on March 12, 2002 09:23:27 PM new
I don't know what you mean by "motive", Hepburn. The search function doesn't work here anymore (at least I can't get it to) but I specifically remember in the Timothy McVeigh thread that you volunteered to be "first in line".
I don't believe I've ever said I don't believe in the death penalty. I have gone back and forth on it over the years. Frankly, I'm not sure where I stand on it. And I don't believe you will ever find a post of mine where I've said differently. I can understand people who might be "for" it, or rather people who feel the neccessity of having it. But that's a far cry from taking pleasure in implementing it. There should never be pleasure or glee in the taking of human life. Never.
Unless one takes pleasure in revenge. Using the death penalty as "revenge" solves nothing and changes nothing. Implementing the death penalty as a tool for "deterrence" or to remove someone as a danger to society is something else again. But taking pleasure in the act...worse, thinking up horrific ways to do the deed to extract the most suffering....well..I find that idea abhorrent and inhuman.
posted on March 12, 2002 09:29:01 PM new
Yes, Tim McVeigh. And the search function workds here very well if you know how to do it, which Im so so at. Anyway, there you go again with the pleasure thing. You think I am happy with this, do you? Believe what you will. Whatever your motive is, I have no clue. You seem bound and determined to find fault with anything and everything anyone else says that doesnt fall into YOUR way of thinking. My thoughts are on those children. My pity is for those who didnt get to grow up. My feelings are for the children. I have stated before and I will agian, Im PISSED. Those babies..it just tears my heart up. THink what you like, you will anyway. But to state what you did, that I "volunteered" to stand in line, in the vein that you did it, shows that you DO have some sort of bone to pick with me, otherwise why say it in that way? You are shocked at what I said in this thread? Im shocked that you would twist something that way. No. Im not shocked. Resigned is a better word.
posted on March 12, 2002 09:40:23 PM newWhatever your motive is, I have no clue.
I don't know what you mean by "motive" hepburn. I have no "motive" about anything.
You seem bound and determined to find fault with anything and everything anyone else says that doesnt fall into YOUR way of thinking.
Actually, I don't know what you mean by that statement either. Can you clarify? I thought we were having a discussion. I commented that someone "volunteering" to execute another human being (excuse me, you used the term THING left me speechless. Calling someone a "THING" strips that person of their humanity. Does it make it easier to kill someone if you think of him/her as only a "THING"?
I haven't twisted anything you have said. Try to calm down.
posted on March 12, 2002 09:45:24 PM new
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=28&id=97994&thread=97929
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=28&id=113619&thread=113269
I found two so far. Still digging for the McVeigh thread.
posted on March 12, 2002 09:46:54 PM new
Any THING that kills its children...FIVE of them, wont calm me down. Next time you get all bent out of shape about politics and BAH someone because you dont agree with them, I will tell you to calm down too.
feeling glee...taking pleasure with the idea of ending another human being's life is beyond wrong. It makes you no better than what you THINK she is. Even those who might support the Death Penalty as a societal neccessity, should not be HAPPY about killing the person.
I know you have volunteered many times (in other threads) to "first in line" to be an executioner,
I haven't twisted anything you have said.
Looks like you like to dredge up things you cant prove. So far, I agree I said I wanted McVeigh to die for what he did. Yates is two. You said MANY TIMES. How many does MANY mean, exactly?
posted on March 12, 2002 09:54:13 PM newNext time you get all bent out of shape about politics and BAH someone because you dont agree with them, I will tell you to calm down too.
Feel free.
But in the meantime, calm down. Really. I have no idea why you are so upset. You're taking this waay too emotionally.
posted on March 12, 2002 09:58:56 PM new
I agree, calm down,this is a discussion, that's all. Just like the old days. Isn't this why we all are supposed to like it here?
posted on March 12, 2002 09:59:13 PM newHow many does MANY mean, exactly?
I dunno. I clicked on the first thread you "dredged" up, but I didn't read it. I know I didn't post to it. I don't know why you "dredged it up". By "many" I guess I mean more than once. I know at least twice, including this thread. I'm pretty sure more than twice. But heck, you're better than me at "dredging up" threads, so I'll let you do it.
I dunno why this is, but I get the distinct feeling you want to "fight". I don't want to fight. I gave up mudwrestling long ago.
posted on March 12, 2002 10:02:12 PM new
Dont patronize me. I have an opinion and I expressed it. You chose to comment on MY comments, like Im the only one who thinks Yates should die for what she did, then say Im horrible for saying it. Then you bust butt to say I have said Id stand in line many times. Like I said..Im resigned to it. Feel better now that you want me to try to defend my opinions and hope I come out looking like an ass? Once upon a time, there was a different katyd.
To quote you in one of those threads up there I posted "Im backing out of this thread now", or however you said it..Im too lazy to go back and search. Carry on. Maybe someone else will come in and say they want her to "fry", like stusi did, and you can have a go at them. Enjoy.
posted on March 12, 2002 10:04:35 PM new
KatyD, WWJD is "What would Jesus Do?" , I just wonder why we ,as humans,can't feel any mercy for those that commit this type of crime, we can only feel for the dead.The dead are gone they do not suffer any more. Aren't we supposed to be a compassionate society? One that would have some mercy? I wonder WWJD and why the people that believe so strongly in Jesus are sometimes the ones that seem the most blood thirsty. This was not directed at anyone here. I've been reading elsewhere too and see a pattern.
An eye for an eye. If most of the murderers in this country were punished the same way they did their victims, then maybe the prisons wouldnt be overflowing. They have shelter, food, warmth, education, television, yard exercise. And we are paying for it until they are either removed permanently, or "rehabilitated". If someone stabbed someone to death, then so should that person be done. If someone raped and killed a child, then so should he be. If someone drowns their children and stands there by the car as they scream, then so should she scream for mercy as the car she is in goes down.
Scarey am I? No, just sick of the evil that is getting worse and worse because the perpetrators know they will have a cot, food and shelter and no pain like what they dished out.
And this nugget....posted on April 29, 2001 04:43:46 PM
I have to agree to some extent with mint4you. I cannot imagine the horror I would feel if someone murdered my child. If he was an adult, and was murdered, wouldnt change a thing. If I could, I would pull the lever, slam the needle home, yank the rope, turn the valve on the gas. Oh yes. In a heartbeat. But thats just me
posted on March 12, 2002 10:11:13 PM new
Good grief, hepburn. You couldn't even make it through the first couple of days?
Your statements are at least as aberrant as the actions of this Andrea Yates. Someone tells you that they disagree with you. You fly off into a fit of irrational post/rants.
If I were to say that you are insane wouldn't you say that I'm not qualified to say so? Yet you can say that this woman is not insane with even less qualification than I to make that call either way?
posted on March 12, 2002 10:15:30 PM new
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=28&id=94745&thread=94687
McVeigh and Death Penalty thread
I didnt manifesto, krs. Bummer for you, eh? I said Im outta here..THIS THREAD. But I came back long enough to say I found the McVeigh thread. I see katyd has been a busy little bee herself. You just dont get it, do you? I said I feel for the children and if that makes me horrible, so be it...AGAIN.
posted on March 12, 2002 10:24:35 PM new
Manifesto?
I MEANT that you come back and can't keep from hassling. I was rooting for you, dearie, and thought that with the animosity between you and Helen removed you might add something to maybe help keep the place going. Instead you come in and act like EVERYONE is your Helen.
posted on March 12, 2002 10:33:53 PM new
I agree with gravid and borillar--most people don't really believe in mental illness. They themselves have never experienced it and simply can't imagine it. It is beyond their experience. When a mentally ill person does something horrendous the first impulse is to disbelieve that they weren't in their right minds when it was happening. Especially if children are involved.
I believe in the death penalty. However, I also believe that if the crime was committed by a mentally ill or retarded person person, that applying the death penalty is inappropriate. They should be confined without possibility of parole.
Hepburn: It is not your belief that Yates should be put to death that is being taken to issue. It is your vehement reduction of her to nonhuman status. That, and the rabid tone of your posts.
posted on March 12, 2002 10:46:27 PM new
I took krs statement to mean as he clarified in his following post, that it only took you a couple of days to get all riled up and defensive.
Some of your posts remind me of my friends emails that I talked about.
posted on March 12, 2002 10:51:34 PM new
When I dont fall immediately asleep, then I know there is something I still need to get done or to say. And that is to say youre right. I got riled. Really riled. This Yates situation does that to me, so maybe its best I avoid talking about it in future. I also seemed rabid in my replies, as Bunni stated. I still have the same opinion, but I could have stated it alittle better than I did and not in attack mode. No, I dont want to fight with you Katyd. I am frustrated, sad and just alittle confused about why I feel so strongly about this woman (yates). I apologize.
NOW Im going to try to sleep....again. I promise..I wont be back tonight
posted on March 13, 2002 02:59:22 AM new
If you want to be practical I guess if we quickly executed everyone who showed signs of mental illness in a few generations we would have little of it to treat.
When there was no medical treatment available there were fewer diabetics for example because if they displayed the disease before they reproduced they did not pass it on.
Take my wife and I for example - We both have traits that would have killed us in early childhood without modern medical care. That is one of the big reasons we did not have children. If either of us displayed any mental unstability that would just add to the list of things not to pass on.
Most people find that eugenic solution kind of harsh.
We are taking care of my mother in law right now who has Alzheimer's disease, and it gives us a day to day show of mental illness. Sometimes she seems almost normal but then she will do something so bizzare you can't believe it. She flip flops back and forth between normal and weird behavior and mixes them together in every combination you can imaigine.
She may know we are leaving to go somewhere and happily cooperate at getting ready but come out dressed in something turned inside out with shoulder pads riding on top over swimwear.
Am I to conclude that because she is aware we are leaving and trying to get ready that she is sane and the bizzare dress is just on purpose to be mean to us? No - I know she may mix behaviors, and sometimes even give really convincing reasons why it was rational to her to do these strange things. It is just not a reflection of reality to expect her to display one set of behaviors or the other. It is not like throwing a switch. So the idea that Yates is sane just because she still displays some rational behavior clashes with my experience. There are estimates that as much as 20% of the population has some serious mental problems. Nost of these people function day to day at jobs and do what is needed to live but I am sure we have all lived and worked with people who had strange behaviors. Most of them seemed to somehow end up being my boss.
[ edited by gravid on Mar 13, 2002 03:07 AM ]
posted on March 13, 2002 03:15:27 AM new
BTW,Hepburn is usually "FIRST IN LINE" at the chatboard chuckwagon.Go grab a couple of "sammiches".You'll feel better.
posted on March 13, 2002 05:35:05 AM new
Finding this woman guilty of murder is a travesty.
The standards used at the trial for mental illness are silly.
They used things such as premeditation and deliberation and calling 911 to show she was not insane. These things have nothing to do with santity or her mental state. Mentally ill people can be just as methodical as sane people, it is their mental state that produces motivations that are not rational, not how they carry those motivations out. There have been cases of mentally ill people who have drilled holes in their own head, they methodically planned it out, and methodically carried it out. Does this make them sane or make them know right from wrong ?
Mental illness encompasses a world view that is distorted and foreign to most people ( I hope ). This distortion doesn't preclude them from doing many things that seem sane, but the motivating factors are very different and overwhelming. I've seen a mentally ill woman methodically make a beautiful dress for her daughter, except she has no daughter. Now apply these overwhelming and insane motivations and delusions to a criminal act and ask yourself why a mentally ill person should be punished ? Why punish someone whose insane delusions include criminal activities and not punish the woman who makes the dresses? They both helplessly labor under the same mental illness and delusions. Have insane delusions now become criminal intent as applied to capital murder ?
Ask yourself why people kill ? There is murder for money, there is the "hot blood" murder where someone goes into a rage while in a fight or altercation. There is "cold blood" murder which is usually for money or other personal gain, such as thrill killing by mass murderers or to cover up other crimes.
Where does this woman fit in to the murder scale ? What else but mental illness could have motivated her to kill her children?
Convicting this woman of murder says that we need a legal punishment/deterent for women not to kill their children. If we don't convict her, woman will kill their children and claim mental illness.
Convicting mentally ill people serves no purpose. You can not deter mentally ill people with the threat of punishment.
This woman tried to kill herself on at least two occaisions. What would a death sentence do but accomplish what she has tried to do herself ? What would life imprisonment accomplish towards a mentally ill person who lives in hell no matter where she is ?
The mental health care system is the ONLY way to prevent these things from happening, and is the only way to handle those who are mentally ill and commit crimes. Putting mentally ill people into prison populations is cruel. Incarcerating them in a mental health facility is what should be done. That is what used to be done with the criminally insane. The only reason we don't do it anymore is because of the costs.
Those dead children are not the victims of their mother, they are the victims of someone who used to be their mother before the mental illness set in. The children are also the victims of a health care system that for whatever reasons did not intervene as it should have, and a husband/father who had an agenda other than the mental well being of his wife. The person that killed those kids is someone that inhabits a mental state that few understand nor want to understand.
posted on March 13, 2002 05:41:36 AM new
Wanted to add- Being considered mentally ill in Texas probably has an extremely high threshold and may be part of the residency requirements.
posted on March 13, 2002 06:16:27 AM new
My wife worked with a woman who was very good at her job and functioned well except she had some problems understanding what was appropriote behavior for an office. She got fired because she would dress bizzare and she had to deal with the public. It was distracting to someone coming in for the first time. There she would be sitting as a receptionist with an outfit that including a tiara looked like she was going to her coronation.
posted on March 13, 2002 07:19:35 AM new
I would like to clarify an earlier statement. If someone is unquestionably diagnosed by several experts as being psychotic(insane) or severely retarded, then perhaps life imprisonment would be more appropriate. I believe, although post-partum depression is a real condition, that it is not serious enough to be classified as psychoses despite findings otherwise. She should not however have been allowed to be with her children after twice attempting suicide. The "eternal damnation" thing is very troublesome to me as freedom of religious belief is one thing, but any belief that justifies putting a child to death is wrong and should be strongly clarified by religious leaders.
posted on March 13, 2002 07:30:10 AM newBTW,Hepburn is usually "FIRST IN LINE" at the chatboard chuckwagon.Go grab a couple of "sammiches".You'll feel better.
lol. I didnt know chatboards had chuckwagons, Josey
Im gonna be first in line at the nursery today, thats fer sure. They just got their load of primroses in and I ordered 10 flats of them in different colors for the grounds.
