posted on March 13, 2002 07:44:39 AM new
reamond - extremely well said.
I doubt if Andrea ever had the opportunity to leave her house. With home schooling, diaper changing, toddlers (never sit still), and the husband being gone at work, and adding a new baby nearly every year; she probably kept compressing her feelings because they were "bad." I believe the humand mind can only handle so much stress and pressure to perform.
What I don't understand is since she HAD seen a doctor and been diagnosed, why didn't the doctor, the husband, or sister find a way to provide relief? Time off? An alternative activity (like eBay?). How about an entire weekend with friends? Oh, that's right - homemaking and motherhood ARE vacation days. Easy street.
I had 3 kids close in age, and I'll be honest. I can see how anyone can flip. No sleep, no rest, poor eating (no time to eat), exhaustion, and the kids need constant care. NOBODY CARED. So I had to learn how to say NO NO NO NO, when someone came along and asked for my last drop of blood. I read books for advice on child care, prayed for patience and strength, organized the day into nap time + playtime + outdoor time + book time + mealtime, and learned how to do it all myself. If I had to pull up on my bootstraps to be a good mom, how much harder would it be for a person with mental illness? Why didn't anyone do anything, or did they just keep telling her what a poor mom she was? It is much easier to execute them.
Her murderous act makes me nauseous. But studying her situation just might bring about some help for people like her.
If the state allows executions of someone with the mental ability of a 7 to 8 year old, what could possibly bar the execution of children who commit violent crimes?
I find the execution of the mentally incompetant, whether IQ deficient or psychotic, morally repugnant. Ignorance is never an excuse.
You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
[ edited by snowyegret on Mar 13, 2002 09:48 AM ]
posted on March 13, 2002 10:30:10 AM new
I am a long time lurker to this forum and have finally been moved enough to put up a credit card so I could post.
I am appalled by the amount of compassion Yates is receiving in this thread. Hepburn, I'm with you 110% on this. I'm seeing a lot of talk about Yates' mental state and what she was feeling because of her oppresive husband blah, blah, blah. Not interested. I could care less. Like Hepburn, all of my compassion goes to the victims. While all you people are trying to get inside the head of Yates have any of you tried to get into the heads of those kids while their mother was brutally murdering them, one by one? So often in our society the victims just get swept aside because, hey, they're dead, right? Well, chalk me up as one of the many (although apparently not here on AW) who want Yates gone. Accountability, plain and simple. There's no question who murdered those kids, none whatsoever.
Sorry, but under no circumstances will I ever be able to rationalize or justify the kind of murders in this case and believe that the perpetrator of such a crime should be wiped off the face of the planet.
posted on March 13, 2002 10:37:46 AM new
Stoke, I have been around these folks here in RT for a long time. They know I get ranty now and then. Last night, I was in a mode of anger..and when I get po'd, I tend to rave. I still feel the same way, but will keep such volatile posts to myself in future. Thanks for understanding what I was feeling, and for letting me know Im not alone in it.
posted on March 13, 2002 10:44:45 AM newI am a long time lurker to this forum and have finally been moved enough to put up a credit card so I could post.
posted on March 13, 2002 11:08:03 AM new
KatyD- Stoke34 and paleryder(page 2-this thread) are both "new" posters. Do you have a reason to believe either of them to be otherwise?
posted on March 13, 2002 11:25:11 AM new
Suicide by Texas Jury
While all you people are trying to get inside the head of Yates
No Stoke, I've just seen moms with post partum psychosis. I am dismayed at the ignorance of psychosis displayed by many. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on March 13, 2002 11:36:59 AM newWhile all you people are trying to get inside the head of Yates have any of you tried to get into the heads of those kids while their mother was brutally murdering them, one by one? So often in our society the victims just get swept aside because, hey, they're dead, right?
This has already been said in about the same words. See the links I posted on page 2 of this thread.
Well, chalk me up as one of the many (although apparently not here on AW) who want Yates gone. Accountability, plain and simple.
Another "volunteer"? What a coincidence!
posted on March 13, 2002 11:56:13 AM new
katyd, it isnt like you to hedge. Spill what youre hinting at, will you? Let me borrow your phrase from last night "are you wanting to fight"? I dont.
In the meantime, Shelly posted a thread elsewhere, and I read "the odyssey of Yates", or whatever its called. It was an internview with her, and it gave alittle more insight to this woman. What I want to know is, why is everyone so determined to accept she has this depression..post partum? Some of the defense attorneys had witnesses of doctors...the prosecutor had doctors too. They both argued for and against. So why do *you* think one way and others think another? Where is the proof she has this depression?
btw, have you read otwa? Seems the forums there are full of those who would love to "volunteer" too. I dont get what youre getting at. Well, I have an inkling, but I dont want to believe it.
[ edited by hepburn on Mar 13, 2002 11:58 AM ]
Read the last paragraph. Even this person who wrote the editorial says its unclear whether yates has this. So what makes my hesitation to believe it, or anyone else of like mind, so controverisal?
edited to make link clickable. Im also trying to understand this, so am reading what I can find.
[ edited by hepburn on Mar 13, 2002 12:06 PM ]
posted on March 13, 2002 12:36:21 PM new
Alwaysbroke and REAMOND: Both of you said things that I had been thinking but unable to put into words.
I didn't follow this as close as most of you, but I recall that her MIL and friend were concerned enough about her mental state to discuss it with others. I believe the friend even kept a diary.
Why didn't these people give her a break. When my twins were babies and I had gone without sleep for 3 weeks, I would have confessed to Nazi crimes in exchange for 8 hours of interrupted sleep.
And after being hospitalized once with PPD, why on earth did her husband agree to another child?
This woman was overwhelmed, 5 kids in 6.5 years, homeschooling, never a break. My heart breaks for the children, I don't know what to think.
Not my name on ebay.
posted on March 13, 2002 12:48:55 PM new
Hepburn, read the paragraph again. I've posted it here to make it easier. It says "it is unclear whether she was suffering from postpartum psychosis or another underlying psychological condition" No where does it say they think she was sane, just that it isn't clear what kind of psychological problem she had.The woman is obviously mentally unstable.
From your link:
"It is unclear if Andrea Yates was suffering from postpartum psychosis or another underlying psychological condition. If she is convicted of the murders of her children she could face the death penalty. Meanwhile her husband was supportive of her and told her he loved her in his televised interview "
posted on March 13, 2002 12:48:57 PM new
Ive been reading whatever links I can find...and I have a question. DOnt know if anyone can answer, but here it is anyway:
IF she has this post partum depression, and I say IF, then according to the state of Texas, and the prosecutors (who dont deny she has it), how can someone who has it know right from wrong? I read that Yates said herself that she knew what she did was wrong, therefore, she was/is considered (in texas law) sane. But if they havent denied she has ppd and agree she does, how can she actually KNOW right from wrong if she has ppd? Im confused.
edited to add a word.
[ edited by hepburn on Mar 13, 2002 12:50 PM ]
posted on March 13, 2002 12:52:03 PM new
People can "know" it's wrong to steal but still do it. Sometimes there is something even more compelling than the knowledge of right vs wrong.
posted on March 13, 2002 12:54:28 PM new
But doesnt that "law" seem contradictory? If someone is insane, how can they know if whatever they do is insane or sane? They are insane. Right? So...how can that law be instigated? Its kind of like an oxymoron, in a weird sort of way.
posted on March 13, 2002 12:59:48 PM new
The law is full of contadictions...seems even more so in Texas but happens everywhere. Lets see...we have people in prison for life for having been caught with a little marijuana three times [three strikes you're out in this state] and people that murder someone are out in a couple of years. I don't know about you but I would rather keep the murderers in jail and let the smokers go. Contradictions and outright peculiarities are the name of the game in our Judicial system.
edited goofy mistakes....
[ edited by rawbunzel on Mar 13, 2002 01:01 PM ]
posted on March 13, 2002 01:05:36 PM new
Yeah, its conradictory alright. But this "law" seems alittle more scarey to me. An insane person is not to know right from wrong, but if they are sane, they they would know? If they INsane, and claim they know, even though they are nutty, and in their mind they know, then they are sane. Supposedly. Or insane. Hell, Im getting crazy trying to make heads or tails of it.
After reading for the past hour, I think shes nuts. Do I believe she should die for doing what she did? Now Im at 55% thinking yes...because of other factors I wont get in to here. The other 45% of my thought process is how can anyone do what she did and be sane and understand what she acutally did? Last night, I spoke with my emotions and only concentrating on the children. Today Im speaking from having doubts as to her true mental capabilities.
posted on March 13, 2002 01:07:18 PM new
Choco..yes. I know Im bullheaded and I know I go off sometimes. I confused my firm stance in my thought processes. Still am, too. But the more I read and surf links, the more a light is going off in my head.
edited to add that I can only focus on a few things at a time. Right now, Im wondering WHY the prosecution KNOWS she has PPD, since they admitted they believe it and havent denied it, and still want her dead. It doesnt make sense. Here I am, just a nobody, with not the files in front of my face, and firmly believe she planned this with a SANE MIND. There they are, with all the info, admitting they know, and say she is sane because she knew right from wrong (they keep harping on that), but she has that form of ppd, so that means shes insane but sane enough. I dont get it.
Sorry. Im talking out loud to myself. Trying to make sense of it.
[ edited by hepburn on Mar 13, 2002 01:12 PM ]
posted on March 13, 2002 01:13:14 PM new
Any law based on psychosis is going to be scary. No one can ever be in anothers head and know for sure what was going on. Very difficult to legislate brain abnormailties or hormone/chemical imbalances or any type of psychosis.
Sometimes these episodes come and go, like Gravid and Choco pointed out. Hard to legislate something no one really understands.Psychologists will tell you they do but I seriously doubt they have a good handle on things either.Can't ~ each person is an individual and one size does not fit all.
posted on March 13, 2002 01:18:27 PM newPsychologists will tell you they do but I seriously doubt they have a good handle on things either.
How can they know unless they have dealt with it themselves? Its like a male doctor telling he knows what its like to give birth. Or, studying the female anatomy and even though being expert in that field, still has no clue what its REALLY like to be female. Did that make sense? So how can psychologists truly KNOW or understand anything unless they felt it themselves, experienced it themselves? This is why I was so angry last night...I cant understand HOW a mother could do what she did. But then again, I dont have ppd either.
I really need to read up on stuff before being so surefired sure. Hubby says I speak before thinking WAY too much. Um..Im sure everyone will agree with him.
Im slow...and bullheaded...but not completely a lost cause.
posted on March 13, 2002 01:33:07 PM new
Stusi- "The "eternal damnation" thing is very troublesome to me as freedom of religious belief is one thing, but any belief that justifies putting a child to death is wrong and should be strongly clarified by religious leaders."
Putting your children to death is a sign of faith in christianity stated quite clearly in the bible. I forget the character's name, but god ordered him to kill his son as an act of faith. Suicide or killing other believers is also an act enforced by the bible in many books, Jesus Christ in effect committed suicide. Now they call it suicide by cop, but Jesus could have easily avoided the death penalty, he actively chose to die.
"Knowing" right from wrong is an idiotic standard for mental competancy.
Even if they do know right from wrong, mental illness can produce compulsions that overwhelm any sense of right and wrong.
Ronald Regan is mentally ill. If he should attack and kill his wife Nancy, should we hold him accountable ? People with Alzheimer's some times do attack people around them.
What should be explored in all crimes by those claiming to be mentally ill is the over riding motivation behind the act.
Many who wish Yates to be put to death are crying for nothing but revenge. Acts of revenge have no effect on the mentally ill, and certainly have no effect on someone who has tried to kill herself.
posted on March 13, 2002 01:38:40 PM new
What happened to the children is worse than horrible, but the responsibility is on more people's head than just the mother.
Our government and health care system shares in the quilt.
Mental Illness is real. Organizations that are aware of people with different types of it have to have options, so that kids and innocents everywhere are kept safe.
Our nation tends to feel better 'frying' the mentally ill without setting up options to the millions with mental illness. It's a simplistic approach to a complex situation, if you fry the person you don't have to find a way to cure the person.
And we all rant and rave about things that happen in other countries, when we don't even do anything about something as dangerous as this, present in our own country.
posted on March 13, 2002 02:00:44 PM new
>>The mental health care system is the ONLY way to prevent these things from happening, and is the only way to handle those who are mentally ill and commit crimes.<<
REAMOND: There is one problem with this. There is no viable Mental Health Care system, unless you mean How Can We Rationalize Not Admitting Them and How Fast Can We Get Rid of Them If We Do? That's the system that I know.
.