posted on May 13, 2002 02:49:41 PM new
UNTIL such time as they are outlawed they should be leashed and fenced when not housed, knowing that no one will house them at all times. Don't you agree? Think for a moment before you answer.
posted on May 13, 2002 02:56:04 PM new
I live with wolves and bears
twice I bearly got away (ok so it was a bad Pun)
I have worked with bears Tigers Lions and cougars
I have worked with a 357 but I prefer a 22jet
hey Helen, I have seen small women control awfully big men and without a leash (usually) I might add.
I have seen some pits turn on their Owners.
I have handled a lot of Pits and Rotts and shepards I see a bad pack assault mentality from rotts (here it comes) I see a lot of overly agressive shepards where th owner did not step in to say no.
I say issue crimminal charges when there is an attack except in cases where animal is defending family from marauding pond scum.
the problem is part of the cancer that is eating away at our society, that cancer is the two big and several smaller fraternities that have insinuated themselves into semi legal positions for personal gain. Frat one The bar assn frat two The Medical assn a pair of blind to their own misconduct parasites. without addressign the crooked ness of the bar assn you cant get decent law enforcement. Unless your some overpaid jock whho wants to murder his wife and then watch mr tough guy snivel play the race card.
two new television shows First The Jefferson Clintons Move On up to the east side at eight tonight, then at nine tommy thompson Hosts GW Bush in Wheel Of Misfortune with Aintno White as Guest host a wonderful new show by prev griffen where welfare recipients get to spin the bpttle with bush, while trying for the secret square with ENron written below it.
I'll try one more time, stusi. Rottweilers can kill a human being. Besides the anguish of knowing that your animal killed or mauled someone, you may be charged with manslaughter or murder if you are found to be negligent.
The dog will eventually get out of a house and out of a back yard even if the dog is leashed. Therefore, it is not safe to own such an animal and it is not safe to leave the dog in the house or safe to leave the dog in the backyard even if the dog is leashed. Neither is it safe to take the dog for a walk even if the dog is on a leash. I would take such an animal straight to the vet and have it euthanized.
As much as I love animals, it is the only answer that I have.
posted on May 13, 2002 03:39:08 PM new
THESE PEOPLE i KNW HAVE CHIHUAHUAS, The damm things attack everything, they elt them out one went after a flock of wild turkeys, the poeple heard a racket went outside to find that the wild toms had that rotten little sucker cornered and were pecking his vicious little ass all over, now it actually looks around before going outside. Me I bought a 50lb bag or cracked corn.
posted on May 13, 2002 04:08:22 PM new
A shotgun would be better than corn...just say gobble gobble gobble to locate a tom. But be very careful... Some other hunter might think you’re a turkey. And you could get shot.
posted on May 13, 2002 04:23:55 PM new
Threads like this are ridiculous. I agree with aurora (shuddder...). Nowhere does it say you are guaranteed a serene passage through life. The incidences of pet dog attacks vs the numbers of dogs of any breed are ridiculously small. Usually somebody reads something and gets on a high horse and says "this shouldn't be allowed".
What's next? We have to ban steak knives with sharp points because the neighbor's kid stabs his sister? Why pick on domestic dogs this round? What about an anti-doggie ban thread where people can tell thousands of quaint lovable stories about your favorite (fill in the blank "killer" pet. Instead we get silly comparisons about how they don't allow people to have tigers but Rottweillers are ok.
Years ago a neighbor got shreaded by her golden retriever when she tried to wash out the paw he cut on the screen door. She should have had help from her husband and son. You cannot protect people from stupidity much as you try.
posted on May 13, 2002 04:52:02 PM new
the corn was a treat for the birds for pecking thay miserable little fiend.
And I find myself agreeing with desquirrel here we cant regulate everything, I mena think of it each day soem clown promulguates
a new set of restrictions someone else is supposed to follow. all nice and done with good intent but no one ever asks how is it we can afford hundreds of USDA inspectors to count puppies, but we cant secure our borders or for that matter ooour food supply? mislocated priorities and good intentions run amok.
posted on May 13, 2002 06:28:32 PM new
I was brought up with large dogs (Great Danes). I currently own two Rottweilers and am part of a Rottweiler Rescue Society. Various members of my family have had many different breeds of dogs, including Borzoi, Cocker Spanial, Dachshunds, Golden Retrievers, Greyhounds, Whippets, Dobermans and 'mutts'. I can confidently say that I know more about dogs than most.
The amount of misinformation on this board is astounding. It seems that most people here only know what they've read in the papers or heard on the nightly news. (And we all know how the media sensationalizes news.)
First of all, a normal-size human being can hold a rottweiler while on a leash. I'm a 42-year-old average size female. I've held both of mine when they were trying to go after another dog.
(By the way, this occurred on a nightly walk when this other dog came out running from behind a parked car snarling at me. Took me by surprise and scared me to death. Of course, I don't think he realized I had my two dogs with me - he turned tail when they went after him. My female weighs 110 lbs, my male 135 lbs. I 'held' them just fine.)
Secondly, there *are* 'bad' dogs. There are 'bad' dogs in all breeds. Of course, you hear about the bigger ones because they can do more damage. A responsible owner has such a dog put to sleep. I've done it twice with rescue rottweilers. A 'bad' one is just too dangerous to have around.
Many other 'good' dogs are turned 'bad' by their idiot owners. My parents took in a badly abused rottweiler. (I won't go into the details but it was horrible.) It took time but he developed back into a loving trustworthy dog. But it *did* take time and is definitely not something I would recommend to the average dog owner. You need a lot of experience to handle something like this.
But the biggest problem is definitely bad owners. Owners who deliberately train their dogs to be mean. Owners who adopt a cute puppy then banish it to the backyard with no companionship when it's no longer so 'cute'. (Of course the dog goes nuts. They're pack animals. You would go nuts too.) People who get a dog completely inappropriate for their lifestyle and then 'dump' it on a back road when they get tired of it. People who don't spay and neuter their animals so they can have a litter 'to teach the children about birth'. (Of course, non-neutered animals are more prone to roaming - which often leads to trouble.) And backyard breeders who care nothing about the temperament of their dogs, just how many can they produce. And people who buy from them are just as culpable.
Getting back to Pit Bulls. Personally I don't like them. THEY ARE NOT FOR EVERYONE!!! A previous poster was correct - they were bred to fight other dogs. (And who did the breeding?? Humans!!) But this does not mean they are all 'bad'. I've met some fine trustworthy ones.
But other big dogs should not be tarred with the same brush. German Shepards were bred to be guard dogs. Rottweilers were originally herding dogs and are now bred as guard dogs. A guard dog is *NOT* an 'attack' dog - there's a world of difference.
One last thing - with my two rottweilers, I've only heard a growl *once*. It was from my female. Someone (a casual friend) tried to just walk into my house while I was taking a shower. She didn't go after him - she simply stood at the doorway and growled once. He backed out. Then she barked until I heard her and came out of the shower. I said 'Oh Hi Bob, come on in'... and she was fine. Her whole back end was quivering with happiness to greet a new friend.
posted on May 13, 2002 06:56:28 PM new
barbarake- Thanks for stating the truth about controlling Rotties on a leash! Are you Iistening Helen? I have a problem,however, with your statement that guard dogs are not attack dogs. They are certainly not one and the same necessarily, however in some areas so many guard dogs are either attack-trained, inbred or starved for aggressiveness that they are virtually indistinguishable. Shepherds and Rottweilers rank very high on the dog intelligence scales, while Pits rank very low. But any breed can be rendered "stupid" by excessive inbreeding and I have seen numerous Sheps and Rotties that were just not "right".
Obviously, I have a different opinion. I have also owned a Rottweiler that was loved and socialized but I found that the nature of this animal which was bred to be a fighting animal was vicious.
Helen - What part of my post did you consider to be an 'opinion'? I'm pretty sure I can back up just about everything I said. <grin>
I'm sorry if you had a bad experience with a rottweiler. Don't get me wrong - I said in my post that I've had to put down two rottweilers that were 'just not right' or 'bad'. It *does* happen. It happens with all dogs. Ninety-nine-percent of the time it's due to 1) poor breeding (d**n backyard breeders) or 2) abuse/neglect of some kind.
If you don't mind my asking - what's the story behind this bad experience you had??
Everyone - Just for the heck of it - go ahead and ask your local vet what breeds of dog are most likely to bite. I can almost guarantee you that cocker spaniels, dachshunds and 'the taco dog' will be in three of the top four spots. (Can never remember how you spell 'chi-wa-was' <grin>
posted on May 13, 2002 07:36:12 PM new
A Dachsund bit my brother on the face because he pet it while it was sleeping. Cockers seem to be either very sweet or very nasty. You can add Dalmatians to the "biter" list as there has been excessive inbreeding for more spots since the release of the movies. One of the most vicious dogs I have ever seen was a Dalmatian.
posted on May 13, 2002 07:52:40 PM new
Stusi - I'm almost positive that dalmations were the fourth breed most likely to bite but wasn't sure of myself enough to list it with the other three.
It's really a shame about dalmations. They're a beautiful dog. But the '101 Dalmations' movie came out and everyone had to have one. Backyard breeders started pumping them out like there was no tomorrow. And the quality of the breed went straight downhill.
The Dalmation Rescue Societies were horrified when they first heard another Disney movie was coming out. They knew they would be flooded with abandoned pets. Sure enough - guess what happened.
Speaking of breeds 'going straight downhill' - I've seen that in a number of breeds. It always happens as soon as they're featured in a movie or something and become popular. If anyone here has seen a show doberman, you'd know that they have very little in common with the typical 'doberman' you see around. About the worst thing that can happen to a dog breed is to become 'popular'.
posted on May 13, 2002 08:04:04 PM new
Barbarake, I didn't mean that to disparage what you wrote about Rottweilers. We both have opinions based on our individual experiences with this breed of dog. Like you, I have owned several breeds of dogs during my lifetime so I don't agree that you know more about dogs than most. That, for example is your opinion.
You state that the amount of misinformation on this board is astounding and that it seems that most people here only know what they've read in the papers or heard on the nightly news. That, again is your opinion. Nobody in this thread mentioned a news story.
I was usually able to take my dog for a walk on a leash until one day when he became absolutely wild and no human being would have been able to control this dog with a leash. When you stated that your dogs went after another dog
Were they running? I don't agree that when a rottweiler goes after something that he wants to attack that he can be restrained by anyone with only a leash.
You state that many other good dogs are turned bad by their owners and that the biggest problem is definitely bad owners. That is your opinion. Although it's possible to mistreat an animal and cause it to be mean, I believe that the problem with Rotweilers is the breed. I am not, as you mentioned an idiot owner. I adored my dog and it was well treated.
Then you say that a guard dog is not an attack dog. In the case of Rottweilers, I don't agree with your opinion on that.
You are lucky to have had a good experience with your dogs so far. But don't let your guard down because they are unpredictable and can become vicious in the blink of an eye. That's my opinion.
I think that I have made my position on Rottweilers perfectly clear. I don't have anything further to add.
posted on May 13, 2002 11:43:11 PM new
I must agree with Helen. If a 200 lb. dog gets in his mind to bolt, most (and I mean most) people could not restrain it. Also, whether a toy poodle will bite is beside the point. Furthermore, stating that a "family pet" will never bite is pure speculation.
We are not dealing with hypotheticals here. Many children have been killed in this state by pit bulls.
You had the misfortune to own a bad example, but yours was not characteristic of that breed. Temperament characteristics are part of the set which a dog is born with even though they usually don't exhibit until the pup approaches maturity. There is a familiar concept in human genetic makeup known as the extra 'Y' chromosone. Something similar is at work in dogs as well, but that is only one element of the problem. Your dog may well have a line in his pedigree derived from a pool made up of dogs which had been selectively bred for viciousness. Either way, and those are not ALL of the ways, it's very difficult to recognize in a puppy, particularly so if there is no opportunity to observe the animal with litter.
So you take the guy home and shower it with love. Your idea of your friend, pet, subject of adoration is very different from the animal who appears later on, and you cannot accept that it is a poor initial choice or a failing in training or other quality of ownership which has brought you this beast. It's easiest for you to simply condemn an entire breed.
Stusi,
You're defining guard using attack terms. The two are much farther apart than you seem to allow.
posted on May 14, 2002 04:08:07 AM new
"Like you, I have owned several breeds of dogs during my lifetime so I don't agree that you know more about dogs than most. That, for example is your opinion. "
I hate to point this out but 'having owned several breeds of dogs' does not qualify one as an expert. I mentioned the different breeds just so show that my experience is not solely with big dogs. My family were professional dog breeders. My grandmother had the European champion Great Dane one year. It was serious business. We've been involved in rescue work all our lives. I've taught obedience classes. The local animal control people in the town I grew up in called my mother when they had problems. Trust me - I know more than most people do about dogs.
"You state that the amount of misinformation on this board is astounding and that it seems that most people here only know what they've read in the papers or heard on the nightly news. That, again is your opinion. Nobody in this thread mentioned a news story. "
This thread started with "For about the 10th time this year in South Florida a Pit Bull has attacked and seriously injured someone". Do you think the poster actually knew the people involved in the 10(?) incidents or did he read about it in the paper??
"I don't agree that when a rottweiler goes after something that he wants to attack that he can be restrained by anyone with only a leash. "
As I said - I'm a 42-year-old female and I do it. By the way, the one time they went after that dog, they were both on 6' leads. They can build up some decent momentum. It's a question of knowing what you're doing. As I said, I've been involved with dogs all my life.
"the biggest problem is definitely bad owners".
Bad breeders are definitely a big part of the problem also. Having said that, I still stand by my statement regarding bad owners. And by that, I don't necessarily mean people who abuse their dogs, etc. Having a dog and 'showering it with love' does not make someone a good owner. You are the boss. And you have to train the dog - any dog - so that they understand it. They are pack animals. You have to understand where they're coming from and work within those parameters. I've had untold numbers of people tell me that they have a wonderful dog, "just don't bother her when she's eating" or whatever!! Huh!! Dogs like that scare me because they obviously haven't been trained by their owners. In fact, they've trained their owners (to leave them alone when eating).
"Then you say that a guard dog is not an attack dog. In the case of Rottweilers, I don't agree with your opinion on that. "
There are distinct differences between 'guard' and 'attack' dogs. I don't have the time now but there is lots of information on the internet that can explain the difference.
I have to get ready for work but will be more than happy to continue this debate when I get home.
But let's not go overboard on regarding 'dog fatalities. Over the past 20 years, (on average) 17 people per year have been killed by dogs. Roughly 40,000 per year are killed by automobiles. Let's ban automobiles!!!
posted on May 14, 2002 04:53:43 AM new
krs- good to see you again. I know the difference between guard and attack- however the line gets blurred in the inner cities.
babarake- let's be fair with the statistics: the numbers of people killed by dogs has steadily risen and the number injured is probably over 40,000 per year.
Helenjw- you are just very stubborn to say that babarake doesn't know more than MOST people about dogs, just as you are stubborn not to admit that leashing and fencing is better than nothing. You also should pay closer attention to what is said as you got aurora's joke about the corn all wrong.
OH NO!!! You think that I misunderstood Auroranorth's joke about corn and the wild turkeys?
I sincerely hope that Auroranorth will forgive what you perceive as an attention lapse and misinterpretation of his joke. I was only trying to put a comical spin on his joke.
posted on May 14, 2002 06:37:19 AM new
well here is some misinformation I read about in the newspaper, last week in Wisconsin the humane society along with the sherriff's dept in washington county seized 10 adult great danes from a couple in their 70's, they wonderful family petsa that were being abbused were taken to the shelter where the shelter workers hndled them and pronounced them to be safe severl days later unprovoked without warinng and looking a lot like a planned attack one of the male danes turned on the worker who was controlling them with a leash and damm near killed her
someting like 70 staples and over 100 stitches, so here we have a case of trained professionals who parden the pun, bite off more than they could chew. Your rotts may well be wonderful family loving pets, many not all of the rotts I have seen are way to agressive. and Now I am really gonna stir it up I am sick of hearing the slams on back yard breeders. If I slammed some other group that way the politically correct crowd would be opn me like flies on a sh ady roof.
and I see a lot of shelter or rescue groups set up but I alos know that there is no one monitoring these and its real easy for scammers to get in, say some bum who wants to make a quick buck off the animals and could never meet the off the wall requirements of the USDA or for that matter AKC, The real sharpies set up a foundation and lease everything they own back to themselves, we have one up here that the humane society has sued for saying they give money to the local shelter when its a check for 1.00 a year. The humane group won a hudgement, the scammers dissovled the entity she had sued and reformed under another similar name. Now then please dont construe this as a statement that I would like to see danes or rotts outlawed I have seen many and personally know many that have made my life a lot better for it. my point is is that some individual dogs are no good and usually but not always it has a lot to do with scumbag owners. For my next attack should I A. Cover the subject of the nutty women who hoard animals.
B.The incompetance of the USDA
C.The benefits of adding steralization to our crimminal Justice system,
D.the fasilure of the crimminal justice system to prevent animals abuse.
And stusi, your observation about the corn and wild turkey response is especially funny since you are so concerned about keeping your thread on topic. LOL!
This happened a few years ago in my neighborhood about two blocks from my house. It's an interesting story from a legal point of view.
The dog got loose one day and scalped a four year old. Like most, he had been trained and had no prior history of violence.
I suppose he had the Y chromosome.
posted on May 14, 2002 09:06:28 AM newbarbarake like I said we're not dealing with hypotheticals. The issue is not so much whether it is theoretically possible to "train" a rotweiller or pit bull, or whether you personally are able to restrain a dog. As pointed out above, there is no real oversight in the training of these dogs. Making a distinction between guard dogs and attack dogs is splitting hairs. I sincerely hope that someone who owns a guard dog is smart enough not to let that dog around children.
The first indication that a family pet has gone bad may be a growl, or it may be an attack on a neighbor or child. Do the benefits (if any) outweigh the dangers of keeping a potentially dangerous dog?
posted on May 14, 2002 09:20:56 AM new
Off topic, but Twinsoft the edit button appeared on your post just now before I logged in. No one else though. Glitch?
Back on topic, I agree with Barbarake. There are "bad dogs", but I see more bad training than anything else. There is a problem that is more prevalent in the South than anywhere else I have lived, and that is letting aggressive dogs out to roam free. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on May 14, 2002 06:07:13 PM new
Twinsoft - you said...
"The issue is not so much whether it is theoretically possible to "train" a rotweiller or pit bull, or whether you personally are able to restrain a dog. As pointed out above, there is no real oversight in the training of these dogs. "
You are 100% correct. You have to pass both a written test and a driving test to drive a car. Yet there's no such requirement to have a potentially dangerous dog. Any reputable person who wants a large dog should have to prove that they know what they are doing and that they have the facilities (sp?) to keep it safely. Also, dogs should be required to be neutered (unless they belong to a certified breeder).
I have no problem with regulation - heck, I'd welcome more regulation!! If only responsible people were allowed to own dogs, maybe some of the rescue groups would be able to go out of business. Believe me, most of them would be very happy to have that happen.
Speaking of rescue groups - yes, there are a few shady ones. But the *vast* majority of individuals who belong to a 'real' rescue group work very hard and spend significant amounts of money taking care of dogs that idiot owners and/or breeders just dump.
pet. Instead we get silly comparisons about how they don't allow people to have tigers but Rottweillers are ok.
