posted on May 21, 2002 06:23:52 PM newThis is war. It is not intended as anti-semitic or pro Palestine. Maybe after reading this article, you can see the horror of what is called collateral damage or in plain words killing innocent men, women, children and the elderly.
At the time of writing, Israel has withdrawn its co-operation from a fact-finding mission dispatched by the UN Security Council to find out what happened in Jenin. This is, given what we now know about the crimes committed there, hardly surprising.
Once upon a time in Jenin
What really happened when Israeli forces went into Jenin? Just as the world is giving up hope of learning the truth, Justin Huggler and Phil Reeves have unearthed compelling evidence of an atrocity
25 April 2002
Israeli tanks enter Hebron
The thought was as unshakable as the stench wafting from the ruins. Was this really about counterterrorism? Was it revenge? Or was it an episode – the nastiest so far – in a long war by Ariel Sharon, the staunch opponent of the Oslo accords, to establish Israel's presence in the West Bank as permanent, and force the Palestinians into final submission?
A neighbourhood had been reduced to a moonscape, pulverised under the tracks of bulldozers and tanks. A maze of cinder-block houses, home to about 800 Palestinian families, had disappeared. What was left – the piles of broken concrete and scattered belongings – reeked.
The rubble in Jenin reeked, literally, of rotting human corpses, buried underneath. But it also gave off the whiff of wrongdoing, of an army and a government that had lost its bearings. "This is horrifying beyond belief," said the United Nations' Middle East envoy, Terje Roed-Larsen, as he gazed at the scene. He called it a "blot that will forever live on the history of the state of Israel" – a remark for which he was to be vilified by Israelis. Even the painstakingly careful United States envoy, William Burns, was unusually outspoken as he trudged across the ruins. "It's obvious that what happened in Jenin refugee camp has caused enormous suffering for thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians," he said.
The Israeli army insists that its devastating invasion of the refugee camp in Jenin earlier this month was intended to root out the infrastructure of the Palestinian militias, particularly the authors of an increasingly vicious series of suicide attacks on Israelis. It now says the dead were mostly fighters. And, as always – although its daily behaviour in the occupied territories contradicts this claim – it insists that it did everything possible to protect civilians.
But The Independent has unearthed a different story. We have found that, while the Israeli operation clearly dealt a devastating blow to the militant organisations – in the short term, at least – nearly half of the Palestinian dead who have been identified so far were civilians, including women, children and the elderly. They died amid a ruthless and brutal Israeli operation, in which many individual atrocities occurred, and which Israel is seeking to hide by launching a massive propaganda drive.
posted on May 21, 2002 06:30:08 PM new
>>A neighbourhood had been reduced to a moonscape, pulverised under the tracks of bulldozers and tanks. A maze of cinder-block houses, home to about 800 Palestinian families, had disappeared. What was left – the piles of broken concrete and scattered belongings – reeked.
The rubble in Jenin reeked, literally, of rotting human corpses, buried underneath.<<
Sorry, thought you were tALKING mANHATAN FOR A MINUTE.
posted on May 21, 2002 07:16:51 PM new
Yup that is war.
Now immaigine you are an Israeli soldier.
What do you want to do? Do you want to go from door to door along each street where the fighters have forced themselves in among the civilians and try to sort them out room by room and watch as hundreds of your comrades are caught in ambushes and booby traps? Or will you be relieved that maybe you will live another day if they bring an armored buldozer up and just push the houses down as they advance?
The Palestinians picked their ground to fight knowing they were using the civilians as shields.
There were no innocents on either side.
posted on May 21, 2002 07:31:06 PM newBut The Independent has unearthed a different story. We have found that, while the Israeli operation clearly dealt a devastating blow to the militant organisations – in the short term, at least – nearly half of the Palestinian dead who have been identified so far were civilians, including women, children and the elderly.
Balderdash. That's not what various "rights" groups have found out. Of course, the Israeli's might just forego ground troops next time and go ahead and use their missiles. Then you will see "indiscriminate" casualties. Understandably their patience is wearing thin. The Palestinian militants should have a care about putting their innocent civilian population in harm's way.
posted on May 21, 2002 07:38:11 PM new
I'm not sure what you mean by "innocent" civilians. You've got a bomb factory in every home. Families raising their children to become martyrs in an Islamic holy war. Suicide bombers who DO target civilians are praised as heroes. Saddam offering cash incentives to anyone who will blow themselves up for the cause. And while those "innocents" didn't have time to leave their homes, apparently they had plenty of time to booby-trap the whole town. Compare even the most extreme estimates of 20-30 civilians killed to the damage that suicide bombers do in Israel on a daily basis.
posted on May 21, 2002 10:19:31 PM new
Just listen to yourself, excuses excuses,
cliches, your two of a kind. you should be ashamed of what was done there. God Bless those young Israeli soldiers who called this war crimes and refused induction. Now lets see a matching number of palestinians. and the rest of you fools can go fight it out with clubs in the desert
posted on May 21, 2002 10:19:32 PM new
Just listen to yourself, excuses excuses,
cliches, your two of a kind. you should be ashamed of what was done there. God Bless those young Israeli soldiers who called this war crimes and refused induction. Now lets see a matching number of palestinians. and the rest of you fools can go fight it out with clubs in the desert
posted on May 22, 2002 06:03:18 AM new
HOW TO ELIMINATE A RACE OF PEOPLE
1. Point out a few trouble makers in the group
2. Lump the rest of the group in with them as "supporters"
3. Constantly describe and treat them as sub-human and worthless trash. Keep doing this until the world believes it and hopefully the group themselves believe it.
4. Move in to their towns and villages and eliminate them by any means possible and as quickly as possible before the world catches on.
There are only 10 types of people in the world
Those who understand binary and those who don't
posted on May 22, 2002 07:06:56 AM new
I am pro Israel in this. For years the Palestines have bombed us while the US has done nothing to help and had the gall to judge Israel for wanting to strike back. It took 9/11 for the US to even half way pay attention to what is going on.
posted on May 22, 2002 07:14:50 AM new
mezuzas,
What are you talking about? The U.S. has been supporting Isreal in usurping Palestinian land and destroying their populace since 1947 , supporting with money (billions), arms, and political clout. Yours is the most uninformed stance on the subject that I've ever seen.
posted on May 22, 2002 07:23:40 AM new
In case you haven't noticed, all the killing and bulldozing and random shooting....that American Tax Money at work.
There are only 10 types of people in the world
Those who understand binary and those who don't
posted on May 22, 2002 07:38:51 AM new
Every time one of those Arabs/Muslims go on a suicide bombing the US wants us to not retaliate and maintain the peace.
posted on May 22, 2002 08:46:56 AM new
Maybe there was an Israeli soldier in the crowd when the the bomber blew himself up. Same difference. It is war. The innocents are merely collateral damage.
Actually, I see it as two immature babies playing very badly in the sandbox. They both need to be taken out and spanked severely. Israel by the US and European nations, Palestinians by the Arabs States. Instead, we enable them both by telling them to play nice-nice. It ain't gonna work until they see the consequences of not playing nice...
There are only 10 types of people in the world
Those who understand binary and those who don't
posted on May 22, 2002 08:51:41 AM new
If terrorists were blowing themselves up in your home town on a daily basis, you wouldn't be whining about tax dollars at work. You'd be screaming bloody murder.
posted on May 22, 2002 08:57:43 AM new
Twinsoft forget it this very thing has already happened here on a far larger scale and these 3 or 4 people who own this forum just don't care about anything but making everyone but them selves look stupid and knowlegeless http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
Email [email protected]
posted on May 22, 2002 09:28:42 AM new
twinsoft I agree. I disagreed with Bush's attempt for Sharon to back off and was po'd when they let Afart go. Was disheartened when the first bomb went off after his release.
If those suicide bombing were happening on our soil or to our people abroad, the USA would be up in arms.
posted on May 22, 2002 08:05:23 PM new
Another suicide bombing. This time, a bunch of old Russian immigrants playing backgammon. Maybe some Palestinian sympathizer here can tell me, exactly what are Palestinians hoping to gain? Is the murder of innocent civilians a military or political tool?
Is it a desperate move by a people with nothing left to lose? I doubt that, considering the recent attack that was timed to coincide with Sharon's visit to the U.S. to discuss peace proposals.
I really think anyone who looks at the issues and past the propaganda can see what is happening.
posted on May 22, 2002 09:03:05 PM newI really think anyone who looks at the issues and past the propaganda can see what is happening.
Quite true, Steve. But first they must understand the "history" and the "culture". The last thing we need is another Islamic state. It will be the death of Israel. But maybe that is what some people here want, although they won't admit it.
posted on May 23, 2002 10:33:46 AM new
There was no slaughter of civilians in Jenin. Every humanitarian group that surveyed the site came to the same conclusion- civilians casualities were few and the IDF acted in a very restrained manner.
These pro-terrorist folks are interesting yet dumb. The very opportunities they use to defend these murders would be non-existent in the West Bank.
Twinsoft- you have been on the ground in the area and offer one of the few opinions that has any merit. Your detractors seem to be self loathing peace at any cost surrender monkeys. Oh, if these terrorist supporters would only go and live with the people that they now support from a safe distance.
posted on May 23, 2002 02:13:46 PM new
People do not have to go there to live with these people the lack of diligence by both majjor parties on securing America's borders assures that we can live with this here too.
posted on May 23, 2002 03:56:30 PM new
Most of whack pack on RT calls virtually everything in our interest as "spin" or "lies" generated by vast right-wing conspiracies involving thousands upon thousands of government employees, media employees. The problem is point of reference. They are spinning so fast the outside world appears spinning.
Things CAN be very simple. Let's see we have a Palestinian "problem" and Israel is "usurping" Palestinian land and those poor, poor, people have nothing left but to blow up the local Food King. Well actually, the UN mandate in '47 called for a jewish and a palestian state. The Jews immediately said they'd go for that and proclaimed the state of Israel which the US immediately recognized. The Palestinians decided to join their Arab "brothers" with their modern, British trained and equipped armies in what even a feeble minded person would call a war of genocide.
Oops, they lost. Then they lost again, and again, and again.
So "these" and "those" are not exactly "equal" in any stretch of the imagination.
As mentioned, the terror groups were dealt severe blows and of course there were "civilian" casualties. And I'll bet the Israelis feel the same way Americans felt when atomic bombs ended WWII. This feeling is the opposite of the RT whack pack, who I'm almost sure would have much preferred a few million casualties to US military personnel than to the deaths of the "innocent civilians".
It just depends on whose side your on. I'll take Israel's any day.
posted on May 23, 2002 07:51:25 PM new
Thank you, Reamond. I lived in Israel, served in the IDF and survived a terrorist attack. At that time, the terror was coming from southern Lebabnon. I have been all over the West Bank and never felt insecure. (Obviously the situation is different today.) I found that while most Palestinians (for lack of a better word) are uneducated, they are good-hearted people. I served with a Bedouin Arab, and I believe there are worse things in life than being a nomadic shepherd.
The problem lies with the corrupt, ultra-rich kings and sheiks who run the Middle East. As in Nazi Germany, the economically challenged are being fed lies about who is to blame for their suffering.
Folks, you complain about subsidizing Israel ... what do you think you're doing when you fill up your gas tank?
posted on May 24, 2002 10:22:20 AM new
We're getting something for our money too when we support Israel. We are supporting the only democracy in the region.
We could cut off the funding to Egypt, where death to America is the constant chant in the mosques and schools.
posted on May 24, 2002 12:29:17 PM new
We get Reamed when we give away our resources to The fascist government of Israel.
We get an ''ally'' that sells technology to our enemies.
We get an ''ally''that spies on us.
We get an ''ally''That murders American servicemen aboard the USS Liberty, in a vicious unprovoked assault to cover up their crimminal violations of international law.
We get an ''ally'' that has their fifth coloumn agressivley pursue American Politicians who place America First.
We get enemies we don't need by supplying the bullets to shoot kids hiding next to a wall under their unarmed fathers arms, in the back.
We get Reamed.
