stusi
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posted on June 3, 2002 07:45:33 PM new
kraft- Why would a murderer collect books about murder, because they are a book collector? People who are fanatical would presumably collect anything that supports their interest. Is that hard to understand? A baseball fanatic might collect some baseball stamps if they had their favorite player on them but it doesn't mean they are a stamp collector!
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stusi
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posted on June 3, 2002 07:46:35 PM new
[ edited by stusi on Jun 3, 2002 07:52 PM ]
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nycyn
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posted on June 3, 2002 07:47:12 PM new
Stusi:
>>Or do you have no ethics of any kind?<<
I have no ethics of any kind.
G'nite. Sleep tight. Don't let the bedbugs bite.
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stusi
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posted on June 3, 2002 07:49:32 PM new
this site is double and triple posting tonight.
[ edited by stusi on Jun 3, 2002 07:53 PM ]
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Helenjw
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posted on June 3, 2002 07:50:30 PM new
If, for example, I have a copy of Lolita. Am I supposed to give the buyer a mental evaluation before selling the book. Or am I supposed to censor the book by burning it.
Some might say that the pedophile could use the book for harm but that doesn't float either because chances are that he may use the book to fulfill his fantasy rather than by abusing a child.
Every book store in the world would be immoral if we follow your ideas, Stusi.
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oklahomastampman
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posted on June 3, 2002 07:55:46 PM new
Stusi,
I personally don't believe that collecting stamps from a government that existed 50+ years ago constitutes support of anything that that government stood for or did. To me they are little pieces of history. I don't see any difference in owning or studying such stamps than opening up a history book and reading about the same. If someone has a revulsion for such material, I support their belief that they should not be subjected to such material. But I would also question that they would have the right to prevent my viewing or collection of the same material. I frankly can't understand how owning a stamp from 1940 Germany would make me a Nazi sympathizer anymore than owning a 1935 USSR stamp would make me a communist or a 1890 Zululand stamp would make me a supporter of African colonialism.
Only by studying the past can we come to understand what has previously happened and why, and hopefully prevent another such occurance. Stamps are history, and by studying the topics displayed on them, one can gain a great knowledge of history and also geography and culture. It's a great hobby - if you haven't tried it, you should give it a shot.
My own collecting started close to 30 years ago when my grandmother gave me a shoe box full of stamps she had clipped from envelopes received over many years from relatives in Germany. My grandparents sent food packages and the like to postwar Germany to help some of their relatives from starving. One of these German relatives ended up working in one of the post offices in Germany and had access to all the new stamps as they were issued. She used all these stamps on the envelopes she sent to my grandmother, so she had a really nice selection of stamps from which to start a collection. So Germany is the country I started collecting.
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stusi
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posted on June 3, 2002 07:59:43 PM new
gravid- if he displays them next to his U.S. military medals his purpose is obviously honorable.
kraft- not a perfect analogy, perhaps, but it does succeed in making a valid point nevertheless. Would you care to comment on the point or are you going to avoid the issue by using a Helenjw/krs/ auroranorth technique?
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stusi
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posted on June 3, 2002 08:03:14 PM new
oklahoma- it doesn't necessarily make you a Nazi sympathizer. It does mean that you have no ethical concerns in this one area.
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Helenjw
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posted on June 3, 2002 08:05:16 PM new
stusi
LOL!
I didn't avoid the issue. You just have me on censor, I suppose. 
Helen
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kraftdinner
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posted on June 3, 2002 08:12:56 PM new
LOL stusi!! I'm not sure what their techniques are....do you mean avoiding the question?? 
If gravid's dad's intentions are honourable, then how does one know that other stamp collectors or history collectors aren't just that? I could sell a Barbie doll to someone that uses them for satanic purposes...how would I ever know??
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saabsister
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posted on June 3, 2002 08:15:48 PM new
Stusi, I'm assuming that mail was franked in Somalia, Cambodia, Stalinist Russia, Kosovo, etc. How do you draw the line and say that the sale of this stamp is unethical?
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stusi
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posted on June 3, 2002 08:26:24 PM new
kraft- one is certainly much more likely to attract Nazis by selling related memorabilia than by selling non-related stuff. If one has ethical concerns then one would not sell such things knowing that they could be purchased by such a person thereby giving support or comfort to their hatred. Very simple.
saab- the deciding factor is the content of the stamp or other matter. Everyone has their own code of ethics and some would presumably not buy or sell items from certain countries.
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kraftdinner
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posted on June 3, 2002 08:36:20 PM new
Then, to help me understand you better stusi, are you saying ALL Nazi rule memorabilia should be banned?
I'm afraid I can't agree with your statement that this type of stuff is only purchased by "Neo-Nazi's". Gravid's post made a perfect example of this.
I'm not trying to argue with you stusi....just trying to understand where you're at.
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Helenjw
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posted on June 3, 2002 08:37:01 PM new
stusi
You seem to think that you are morally and ethically superior to everyone here when in fact your thinking is just skewed.
It's preposterous for you to think that you can presume to know who is moral and ethical based on what items they sell, buy or collect.
Helen
ed to add collect.
[ edited by Helenjw on Jun 3, 2002 08:41 PM ]
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stusi
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posted on June 3, 2002 08:45:11 PM new
kraft- I did not say that all such stuff should be banned-you know the first amendment etc. I also did not say that ALL such stuff is purchased by only neo-Nazis. I am saying that the decision to buy or sell such stuff shows a clear lack of ethics in this area.
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hepburn101
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posted on June 3, 2002 10:16:52 PM new
I think I know where Stusi's head is. Kinda. Do let me know if Im wrong, will ya, Stusi.
I would not sell books on animal torture methods, i.e. how they kill minks for their coats, books of pics of experiments done on animals, etc because from my standpoint, its ETHICALLY wrong and morbid to me. So, with that thinking, the people who would purchase such books (remember, this is to MY way of thinking) those same people must have no ethics in animal torture, so they are scum in my book and must therefore "get off" on such things and want to learn other devious and disgusting ways to hurt animals for such "thrills". I know there MUST be some other reasons they may be buying these books, i.e. research on what NOT to do, or for protesting further researches, etc, but IN MY MIND, I dont want to think of the other possibilities because my mind is set on how awful it is, no matter the reason, and therefore, they stay scum, as well as the ones selling such books/items.
So, am I close? (simple me has to put myself in the other shoes with a subject that hits home with me, hence the animal thing).
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RetroBargains
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posted on June 4, 2002 12:44:29 AM new
I read this thread and find it amazing that some are naive enough to think that we as sellers are required to delve into the mind of every customer to learn their true intent.
Not to get into the philosophy of life here, but that's the current problem... individuals don't take responsibility for their own actions... they try to shift the blame for what they have done on someone else. For example; the endless stupid warnings you find on products. An over-the- counter sleeping aid that states "May Cause Drowsiness". (duh!) - McDonald's getting sued because their HOT coffee was HOT. (no-brainer duh!)
It's ludicrous. I sell a lot of old books. Should I put a warning on each auction stating if misused this book may be harmful or fatal if swallowed? What if some crazed maniac buys a book and reads whatever in it and goes on a rampage? Not my fault.. nor the book's fault. Blame the author? The Publisher? No... that's stupid.
The holocaust was horrific and I do not mean to lessen that. It was. So was the Civil War, WWI, the rest of WWII and countless other atrocities. Historical items are readily available and sold as such for collectability. It's called a market.
I and 20,000 other people had a near-miss accident the other day caused by a stupid moron trying to talk on a cell phone and drive at the same time. Should cellular phones or automobiles be banned from sale on eBay or anywhere else? No, but it's no different. I'm now sensitive to idiots with steering wheels and cellular phones... sensitive enough that it pisses me off. But that's an individual thing... a thing that I personally have to deal with. It affects a lot of people yes, but each of those people must and will deal with it at an individual level... not a blanket coverage of protection. We are being protected from ourselves entirely too much.
Whatever happened to truth in advertising? Used to be a law - guess that's out the window now. I know I bought some of that dog food, fed it to my little dog and I haven't seen him take off and tear up the concrete yet... nor can he fly. Commercial showed that's what it would do for my dog. Should I sue?
Saw a car trying to be pulled up by the force of a UFO tonight on TV - Car won... it delivered more power than the UFO. Now, if I buy that car and by chance get pulled into the tractor beam of a UFO will it save my butt from being abducted? Commercial shows it will. Should I sue?
It's obvious that people WILL buy anything. And sellers will sell anything that people will buy. How the buyer uses it and what they want with it crosses the line of privacy and right-to-know and gets into legal issues better left to law enforcement and the judicial system. Not to sellers, distributors or critics thereof. Now I DO respect the wishes of laws set forth by our country and others if an item is banned by that country (Nazi items as an example). I may not agree with the law, but if it's the law so be it. Now a wider spanning policy by eBay is only there to protect eBay... no other reason... period.
If you don't care for an item... don't buy it. Just don't expect the rest of the world to have your same viewpoints on that item. It used to be called freedom of choice. Still is in my book. (Don't worry, I won't hit anybody over the head with my book, nor will I throw that particular book at them!)
Some church-goers don't like pornography; some church-goers DO like pornography but don't admit it. Lots of people that like pornography attend church also. Lots of people don't. The point here is that forbidden areas or subjects or taboos are extremely luring to even the most innocent. So what. It's an individual choice that has to be made in the responsibility department. Some call it pornography... some call it art. Some call it attending church... some call it being a hypocrite. It all depends on the viewpoint... which is rarely shared by the obnoxious individual that wants to make an issue out of something. That person will always find something to gripe or complain about. They wouldn't be happy if they didn't.
Everyone knows what opinions are like. And there is a bunch of them out there. Some aren't happy no matter what. Life's too short to deal with those individuals that are having serious issues they can't recognize. Three seconds after an "opinion " of that sort crosses my path they are history... I just consider the source, do what is necessary and move on. Simply won't let them ruin my day. Ain't worth it.
Okay, I'm closing the book on this chapter...uhh.. watch your fingers. <grin> I have a slightly-used soapbox for sale now - oh... I better put a warning label on it and check which country can't purchase this model. Are soapboxes allowed to be sold on eBay??
Have a great day! (no matter the cost!)
Greg
Greg
Retro Bargains
http://shop.auctionwatch.com/RetroBargains
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Helenjw
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posted on June 4, 2002 05:03:40 AM new
Greg
What an excellent analysis! Thanks so much for clarifying this issue from your sensible perspective. It was a pleasure to read!
Helen
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nycyn
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posted on June 4, 2002 05:53:26 AM new
Helen,
Too bad Stusi can't or won't read.
RetroB:
>>So was the Civil War, WWI, the rest of WWII and countless other atrocities.<<
Hello!
Meanwhile, I never did find out why currency & stamps are okay but a cancellation isn't. Maybe because it is senseless?
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mlecher
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posted on June 4, 2002 05:54:07 AM new
Did you know that....Neo-Nazis also like to purchase....GROCERIES!!!!!GASOLINE!!!!!NEWSPAPERS!!!!! Some have also been known to own homes.
There are only 10 types of people in the world
Those who understand binary and those who don't
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nycyn
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posted on June 4, 2002 06:02:33 AM new
>>Neo-Nazis also like to purchase....GROCERIES!!!!!GASOLINE!!!!!NEWSPAPERS!!!!! Some have also been known to own homes.<<
OH MY GOD!!!
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Helenjw
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posted on June 4, 2002 06:11:38 AM new
mlecher
LOL! You may find yourself on stusis's ignore list if you say that again. HaHaHa
Nycyn
I think that it's because the cancellations have graphics of nazi art or emblems etc and the stamps don't.
So, if your stamps are cancelled, they are more valuable but you can't sell them.
Helen
sp.ed
[ edited by Helenjw on Jun 4, 2002 06:22 AM ]
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krs
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posted on June 4, 2002 06:40:50 AM new
'stusi' is such a cute little name.
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Linda_K
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posted on June 4, 2002 07:00:33 AM new
Oklahomastampman - I personally don't believe that collecting stamps from a government that existed 50+ years ago constitutes support of anything that that government stood for or did. To me they are little pieces of history. I don't see any difference in owning or studying such stamps than opening up a history book and reading about the same.
I agree.
Well said RetroBargains.
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gravid
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posted on June 4, 2002 07:02:50 AM new
Actually my father in law keep all his war items in a small box and only showed them to someone that had an interest in them. He was not very quick to invite someone he did not know well to share such personal items.
He carried a camera with him everywhere and most of his box was full of photos.
He was with the military police and always close to the fighting but never directly in it. However he was still in very dangerous areas because they would be moving around close to the fighting which was often fluid, and run into elements of the other side. As they were often transporting their own men but ones that were prisoners they were to avoid engaging them if they could.
He had one Russian pistol - funny they were an ally - but they got stopped by these Russians and they spoke no Russian and the Russians had no English. They did not want to let them pass and when my FIL's partner showed them on a map where they were going he whipped out this pistol and obviously intended to shoot the partner - so he cut him down with a submachine gun he carried. The rest of the Russians seemed as surprised by the officer whipping out the pistol as the Americans and gestured with sweeping shooing motions for them to go on the way they were pointed. They were transporting two US murderers in the car.
Evertime the fighting would get close or be going bad someone insisted on giving my FIL a weapon and never took it back. So by the time the war ended he had a carbine - an MI Garand - a Thompson sub machine gun his pistol and a couple captured weapons - one of which was a German anti tank rifle that shot a collapsing copper finned slug down a tappered smooth bore barrel. It resulted in quite a bit of humor when they would move which was frequently. They would get orders what to do and his commander would always end the brief by telling his partner - and you help Tommy move his guns.....
[ edited by gravid on Jun 4, 2002 07:07 AM ]
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stusi
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posted on June 4, 2002 07:04:01 AM new
Once again the lack of intellect is sadly showing on this board. It seems that every time someone feels that any control, discretion or common sense should be used in anything, numerous dim bulbs come forward with the lamest, pseudo-libertarian argument such as: "since we can't possibly know the intent of a purchaser why should we not offer the item?" Doesn't this remind anyone of the furor several years ago regarding the selling of nuclear bomb-making instructions? It is a question of ETHICS and MORALS that many here can't and/or don't want to understand. They would rather prostitute themselves for money. Once again I will pose the question, albeit not a perfect analogy: If you came across a book on how to be a good pedophile, would you offer it at auction because it is not your concern to know how it would be used? Don't even try to use the historical/non-historical argument!
[ edited by stusi on Jun 4, 2002 07:55 AM ]
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gravid
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posted on June 4, 2002 07:19:54 AM new
Stushi - I really don't think you have a good handle on what turns on a neo - nazi.
Believe me you won't find a violent guy who gets all whipped up about racial superiority and the killing of the mud peoples with his magnifying viewers on under a lamp handling stamps with a set of tweezers.
They tend to banners and swords and such that
excite their emotions. First day covers just don't project the majesty of the Fatherland - honest.
Sorry to say you however DO get very emotional and excited at anything linked with the Great Nemasis. I can easily see you in a museam smashing indian pottery from 200 years ago because it has the dread SYMBOL on it. Oblivious to the fact there is no connection.
It would help others take your legitamite concerns more seriously if you would set some limits to them instead of going ballistic so easy.
If there are some moral errors in these sales perhaps that will be an occasional cost of property rights. I will remind you that all rights - including the right to life and freedom that you remember being curtailed so well are ultimatly property rights. Every time you tell someone they can't do what they will with their own things you also make a moral error of greater or lessor magnitude than the one you seek to fix.
[ edited by gravid on Jun 4, 2002 07:22 AM ]
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krs
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posted on June 4, 2002 07:29:50 AM new
Very fine post Gravid.
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stusi
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posted on June 4, 2002 07:35:50 AM new
gravid- perhaps you do have a greater handle on what turns neo-Nazis on! That is not the issue. If you don't get it that's a shame. I am not going ballistic, but whenever someone disagrees here they are accused of flaming or other smokescreen phrases that are not necessarily accurate. BTW- no one is telling others what they can't do but rather what they shouldn't do- there is a BIG difference but again the twisting of words is something that most here are adept at. It is like the recent discussion of banning hand-held cell phones where people were saying that radios should also be banned if that happened, as they are also a hazard. Always illogical arguments by those who can't or do not want to understand or by those who do understand but think they can obliterate the issue at hand.
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krs
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posted on June 4, 2002 07:41:45 AM new
Can you hear those steel balls clicking, Mr. Roberts?
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