posted on June 4, 2002 06:39:48 PM newThe holocaust was horrific and I do not mean to lessen that. It was. So was the Civil War, WWI, the rest of WWII and countless other atrocities. Historical items are readily available and sold as such for collectability. It's called a market.
That statement is terminally oversimplified. I don't have an issue with stamps. That to me is a historical item, and not a political one. However, there is definitely a MARKET for Nazi memorabilia and it would be naive to think that only historians are buying Nazi items.
There is a question of where to draw the line. If selling an authentic Nazi-era poster is okay, how about selling 500 copies of the same poster?
I would not sell a copy of a Nazi flag, just as I would not sell a KKK flag because they are symbols of hate.
Personally, I would not sell any Nazi memorabilia but I can understand why there is a market for authentic items for historical collections, especially in the stamp field. So, the seller who chooses to sell these items can not be called unethical or immoral.
The seller of the authentic items should not be expected to know or bear responsibility for the buyers intended use of the product.
posted on June 4, 2002 08:26:53 PM new
=================
The holocaust was horrific and I do not mean to lessen that. It was. So was the Civil War, WWI, the rest of WWII and countless other atrocities. Historical items are readily available and sold as such for collectability. It's called a market.
That statement is terminally oversimplified. I don't have an issue with stamps. That to me is a historical item, and not a political one. However, there is definitely a MARKET for Nazi memorabilia and it would be naive to think that only historians are buying Nazi items.
There is a question of where to draw the line. If selling an authentic Nazi-era poster is okay, how about selling 500 copies of the same poster?
=================================
TWINSOFT: Agreed... but I'm not the one being naive. Just as with any market, not 100% of the market will like any given item in that market - so what... let it go. If you are offended by a particular market or item in that market then common sense dictates that YOU (ie, any given individual) should avoid that market. Doesn't mean that person should dictate that others should avoid it too.
Where should the line be drawn? Where it legally is already... by the countries and legal entities... not by a company or individual. Laws are made for a reason.. and changed for a reason... and abolished for a reason... that reason is NOT for an individual to decide what should or should not be available to the public in general.
posted on June 4, 2002 09:33:58 PM new
RetroBargains- I HAVE read your posts and since I felt that they brought nothing new to the table, I responded generically to those who were saying the same thing. Your supposed "battle of wits" never was more than a jab. I have here on occasion admitted to a lack of knowledge in some areas, and would never presume to do battle as such. In this particular discussion there is no great area of armament necessary as one either gets it or not! Any time you want to ask a direct question you WILL get a direct answer if possible.
posted on June 5, 2002 05:26:03 AM new
gravid, I hope that you were not inferring that I was engaged in name calling. I was simply making an observation of stusi's techniques.
Next, RetroBargains will be silenced by stusi if he continues to make his position clear.
It was STUSI who was engaged in name calling and when I replied in defence, I was told that I was talking to myself.
So, when someone with stusi's agenda wants to silence someone, she is fair game.
Your other observation about supply and demand is true, of course.
posted on June 5, 2002 05:36:40 AM new
I tried the tedious task of pasting all of stusi's posts into one post so that stusi might see why people either don't won't to engage with him/her and to show the substance he/she brought to this thread.
posted on June 5, 2002 05:46:41 AM new
retro- for your information there are many things in life where the law is not the determining factor as to the propriety of our actions. There have been laws passed recently regarding the "right" to "yell fire" in a crowded theater. Prior to that was it morally the right thing to do? There are guidelines on this board whereas the owners have decided to "discipline" certain posters for violations. Had any laws been broken? Your point that laws alone should determine our actions is idiocy. Anyone who thinks as you do will show a clear lack of ethics and morals in their daily lives. Your reference to outflanking is both wishful and premature. Do you think that numbers alone determine a "winner"? The only losers here are those who feel it is a good thing to provide comfort to Nazi sickos.
posted on June 5, 2002 05:52:28 AM new
nycyn- before I put you on ignore, I noticed your oh-so-clever signature line and must say that not only is it the sleaziest baiting I have ever seen on any board, but it is a clear violation of the RT guidelines. You have sunk to a new low-I hope you are proud of your white trash efforts.
posted on June 5, 2002 06:47:34 AM new
These are just random remarks made by stusi during the last month. I tried to limit them to remarks made to myself and Nycyn because others may not want her insulting remarks repeated. And, I probably missed a lot. I tried not to include political statements
or opinion. These are personal insults.
REMARK BY STUSI
"Anyone who thinks the Israelis are looking to kill civilians is a fool. They are going after terrorist strongholds and there may be collateral losses. I believe that anyone who defends the Palestinians in any way is either a terrorist, an idiot or an anti-semite who doesn't have the balls to say so."
REMARK BY STUSI
"Helenjw- are you the self-appointed defender of these boards? Perhaps you take after Borillar who defends you. The point about innocence is that when someone uses the word sympathy regarding the Palestinians, either they are a PLO sympathizer(terrorist) or they are implying that they feel sympathy for the "innocent" civilians. Let's not again play semantics, Helen. I really don't care how someone takes my accusation-I stand behind it."
REMARK BY STUSI
"Helen- You jumped to the conclusion that he is "seriously disturbed mentally". You are getting boring with your hypocritical and semantic-based criticisms of my opinions. Don't you have any original thoughts?"
REMARK BY STUSI
"People change their mind every day about abortion, religious beliefs etc. due to less than traumatic events. Oh, nevermind. There is sometimes very little intellect on this board. I guess that is why the "peeps" threads got so many posts. nycyn- get the fire extinguisher"
REMARK BY STUSI
"Helen-Part of the reason I say there is sometimes very little intellect here is because some people can't tell the difference between being asked to see a possibility exists in another person and you being asked to change your mind. They are not necessarily simultaneous truths. Being asked for proof that a person can change their mind about the death penalty after witnessing mass murder is just obtuse."
REMARK BY STUSI
"Helen- you said the Palestinians were fighting for freedom, ie.-"freedom fighters"! Anyone who thinks they are an opressed people(by the Israelis) is delusional. To call them freedom fighters is being sympathetic to a terrorist cause. That makes you a terrorist."
REMARK BY STUSI
"Helen will come with two Palestinian "freedom fighters", unarmed as they are law-abiding citizens. I will come with an unleashed Pit Bull and Rottweiler, as even though I could control them on a leash, Helen says otherwise. I will win."
REMARK BY STUSI
Once again you are neglecting to take into account the question of degree. Do you really think the percentage of Israelis who support fringe groups indiscriminately killing Palestinians even approaches the percentage of Palestinians who support suicide bombings of innocent Israelis? PBS is a subsidiary of the Anti-Defamation League? What kind of anti-semitic crap is that? First you make a ridiculous analogy about Jewish doctors in another thread, now this absurd diatribe? "Jews dwell on their past miseries"? Next you are going to say that the Holocaust never happened! What the heck were you doing for the past few weeks, starting a local KKK chapter?"
REMARK BY STUSI
"Helenjw- You really are thick headed! "..just presented as a topic of discussion"? "innocuous thread"? 1. So in your humble opinion, if someone makes a statement that is rascist, anti-religious, etc., then it's perfectly fine with you because it's being presented for discussion?
2. You made a statement(s) that YOU apparently thought was humorous but I and others thought was callous! Get it?
3. Does the fact that someone has made many posts here mean that they are KNOWN to you to not be rascist, anti-semitic etc.? Weren't you here when Networker espoused support for Jesse Jackson's anti-semitic statements and others here questioned my rebuff of Networker? All harmless fun in your opinion? Isn't it possible that someone might decide to make their feelings known for the FIRST time? You seem to make some very definitive but misinformed statements such as the one about NO ONE being able to control certain dogs.
4. Once again- krs did NOT quote anyone or state a source for his original statement. As such my comments were definitely appropriate. If he had they were still so IMHO.
5. It should be clear to you now, having read others' posts here, that I am not alone in my thinking. Read KatyD's post again!
6. Can't you ever admit you are wrong?
7. krs' contributions to my threads have been limited at best and certainly of no consequence to this issue."
REMARK BY STUSI
"Helenjw- you have become krs. you make statements you can't back up, seem to think that if you quote something that is hateful it is harmless, get hung up in semantics, ignore direct pointed questions, post indiscriminately in threads you don't contribute to, and seem to enjoy attacking one particular poster for awhile before going on to the next. Saying over and over again that nothing bothers you is an understatement. That is exactly the point. It is called ignorance! BTW- it is not necessary to repeat entire posts in bold-people can read."
REMARK BY STUSI
"3. Helenjw- You really are a hypocrite. You constantly engage me in discussion but when asked the hard questions you evade and insult like a child. I am regretfully thinking about putting you on permanent "ignore" as you just think everything is a big joke, not to mention you are a PLO sympathizer."
REMARK BY STUSI
"Helenjw- If you would read the sequence of my posts carefully over several threads you would see that I usually do not "characterize" other posters until such time as it is undoubtedly earned. The fact that you call it a diatribe is somewhat typical of you as the word infers bitterness which is what the original post had. Posting for the sake of posting is certainly one's right but rather childish particularly when coupled with statements like- "I can say anything whenever I want" or "nothing you say bothers me" or when getting involved in a thread and then completely ignoring direct questions from others. Maturity is grossly lacking here. BTW- Lest I be reprimanded by you again for changing topics within a thread, I suggested to aurora that we might take it elsewhere."
REMARK BY STUSI
"Helenjw- It looks like you are responding to me but as you are on "IGNORE" you may want to spare others."
REMARK BY STUSI
"I have had Helenjw and krs on the "ignore" function for several days. I have also been in touch with DianaAW as the function works only sporadically. When I asked Helen to spare others etc., it was because her posts seemed to follow mine as though she was responding to me directly. This A.M. the function is not working once again- as such I would like to address krs' accusations. Unlike yourself, I am not a "hit and run" artist. I do not post inflammatory comments,mostly stolen, and then either "disappear" or refuse to respond to direct questions about your supposed comments. I am always available to respond DIRECTLY to those in disagreement and without getting hung up on semantics. Your "days of terror" are over,krs, as you have been exposed for what you are- a coward and very possibly an anti-semite as your comments regarding Israel are taking a more definitive slant. The word you have been laboring over in the crossword puzzle you are doing while waiting for the train is "integrity"- too late the train just left!"
REMARK BY STUSI
"krs- I just logged on and for the fifth time over the last several days the "ignore" function IS NOT working properly. It is on one minute and off the next! Try it or contact AW if you still choose to believe otherwise. BTW- it is sincerely refreshing to see you respond directly, albeit lamely, to my categorization of you.
Helenjw- you are playing thread cop again. It seems that my "ridiculous" ideas are actually get some support here despite your rantings that no one could possibly agree with me. Your continued definitive statements that there could not possibly be any anti-semites here is itself deserving of a big LOL. You really enjoy speaking for others, don't you?"
REMARK BY STUSI
"nycyn- for you to even suggest that it would be the philatelics that neo-Nazis would be/not be interested in is quite naive. Bottom line is you have no business ethics. Would you associate with a known neo-Nazi as well? Or do you have no ethics of any kind?"
REMARK BY STUSI
"Would you care to comment on the point or are you going to avoid the issue by using a Helenjw/krs/ auroranorth technique?"
REMARK BY STUSI
"it doesn't necessarily make you a Nazi sympathizer. It does mean that you have no ethical concerns in this one area."
REMARK BY STUSI
"Once again the lack of intellect is sadly showing on this board. It seems that every time someone feels that any control, discretion or common sense should be used in anything, numerous dim bulbs come forward with the lamest, pseudo-libertarian argument such as: "since we can't possibly know the intent of a purchaser why should we not offer the item?" Doesn't this remind anyone of the furor several years ago regarding the selling of nuclear bomb-making instructions? It is a question of ETHICS and MORALS that many here can't and/or don't want to understand. They would rather prostitute themselves for money. Once again I will pose the question, albeit not a perfect analogy: If you came across a book on how to be a good pedophile, would you offer it at auction because it is not your concern to know how it would be used? Don't even try to use the historical/non-historical argument!"
REMARK BY STUSI
"gravid- thanks for looking out for me but I wll deal with those to whom you refer. Your comments about pedophilia are more then I was looking for but at least you answered the question, unlike nycyn who has now gained charter membership into the krs/Helenjw/auroranorth chapter of AAA-Answer Avoiders Anonymous! What a ball-less bunch of internet cowards."
REMARK BY STUSI to Nycyn
"nycyn- Since you continue to refer to me as a female I thought it best to give you two pieces of information: 1. I am a male, name= Stu and 2. you are now on "ignore" as your continued baiting and avoidance of direct questions is of no interest to me. You are a female version of krs but with much less intelligence."
posted on June 5, 2002 07:18:21 AM new
ummmmmmm....could be <wink wink>. Least he doesnt edit, so folks dont have to guess what he took out after hitting that old submit button.
posted on June 5, 2002 07:18:35 AM newIf you are offended by a particular market or item in that market then common sense dictates that YOU (ie, any given individual) should avoid that market.
Certain types of items ARE controlled and it's not just one person forcing their preferences on a larger group. For example, in my town recently a law was passed banning adult vending machines. Before that, there were explicit sexual photos on every corner. People just got sick of it.
On the other side of the spectrum are the sellers who claim they aren't responsible to their buyers. Here would fall your gun/porn/drug dealers or anybody trying to make a quick buck without any conscience.
Nycyn, not all Native Americans object to being called "Redskins" but some do. Do you think they're trying to "spoil it" for everybody else?
Regarding your original post, I think eBay's action was unusual and I don't know why a particular stamp may be sold only in uncancelled condition. I would be disappointed too but then not all salable items are worth selling. Like this cool Army anti-terrorism manual.
posted on June 5, 2002 07:29:31 AM new
Twinsoft, it isn't as simple as:
On the other side of the spectrum are the sellers who claim they aren't responsible to their buyers. Here would fall your gun/porn/drug dealers or anybody trying to make a quick buck without any conscience.
You don't know how people may use the software they buy from you. They may use it to simplify and speed their auction sales. Perhaps they sell ordinary items - toys, clothes, garden supplies, etc. - but use the proceeds to support the KKK or some Nazi group. You can't know or be responsible for their actions. Perhaps,funded by their streamlined auction sales, they do more damage than the person who buys a franked German stamp for his stamp collection.
posted on June 5, 2002 07:32:48 AM new
Nah. I havent edited whole posts for some time now (just to correct spelling or to clarify). I also dont use the ignore feature, so I guess that makes me VERY distinguished (or an idiot, whichever the case may be)
posted on June 5, 2002 07:38:20 AM new
saabsister,
One of the finest posts in this thread!!!
"You don't know how people may use the software they buy from you. They may use it to simplify and speed their auction sales. Perhaps they sell ordinary items - toys, clothes, garden supplies, etc. - but use the proceeds to support the KKK or some Nazi group. You can't know or be responsible for their actions. Perhaps,funded by their streamlined auction sales, they do more damage than the person who buys a franked German stamp for his stamp collection."
Let's not be grandiose and call it a typo then. Look at your keyboard.
