posted on June 9, 2002 07:03:03 AM new
Borillar - First I'd like to say that Yellowstone was correct. My statements were my opinions from reading some of the things you write.
Would you like to discuss this here, or would you feel more comfortable doing so via email? Linda
posted on June 9, 2002 08:26:39 AM new
All I ask is to remain civil, not insulting. No need to resolve such a situation through backdoor correspondance. Discussing it in public is fine with me. Explain yourself at your leisure.
posted on June 9, 2002 08:50:13 AM new
Okay....good you're here.
I think we are already in agreement that we both have a right to share our opinions on any subject. If we're not...please let me know.
From reading your posts you don't appear to be in agreement with anything the government does....any party...any subject...If I'm wrong...please point out to me the *positives* you have [previously] shared about how our system is run.
To me, you appear to think there is a government conspiracy around every corner. Everyone in a leadership position is out to get you/us, harm us, take away our rights, etc. including the US Supreme Court. You make serious charges about the administration and President Bush without backing up those statements. Just repeating something over and over doesn't make it true.
When I said sometimes your statements scare me, I mean like when you state, "I can tell you for a fact that few people around here want Bush to do anything more than swing from the rail riding him out of town where he'd just been tarred and feathered[/i]" That does seem anti-American to me because that's not the way we deal with people we don't agree with. Vote him out since you don't agree with anything he does..but to twice suggest we do this, this leads me to believe that you don't believe America has a system of justice and courts to deal with him if he's committing so many of the crimes you accuse him of.
posted on June 9, 2002 09:12:35 AM new
Linda, I had hoped that you would have read what I wrote to yellowstone in its entirety last night before continuing with this thread. At the risk of repeating myself, I'll reiterate some basic ideas for you to chew on, hopefully bringing understanding to you, possibly enlightenment.
1) It is NOT possible to "Ride the President out of Town on a Rail after being Tarred and Feathered."
Swallow that whole, please.
Now that you realize the truth of that statement, then you might consider rereading my statements in that new, profound light. I'll be happy to interpret it for you further if you really wish it - just ask.
2) Democracy 101 states: you have the Right to Dissent.
I am dissenting.
3) The United States Constitution should not be used as Toilet Paper.
Seems that many of our politicians do and that makes me angry. Excuse me for venting!
4) The reason that people are elected to Congress is to represent the electorate; i.e., the People of America.
Does that sound familiar at all? It should, they taught that to us in sixth grade Social Studies class. Those elected representatives are there to ALWAYS choose what is in the Best Interests of the American People. Period. There is NEVER a time when this basic idea is applied differently. So when our representatives STOP representing the Best Interests of the American People and in fact, often choose just the opposite, then I dissent. Capiece'?
5) The American People elect such leaders as will do them most good, those leaders taking such actions as allowed by the U.S. Constitution to promote the Public Good.
That should sound a bit familiar too. So when our leaders ignore the United States Constitution and take authority that they do not have, then they commit crimes against the People of America. Simple in concept. So, I dissent as is my American Right and NONE shall deny me this Right!
6) I do NOT have to love BUSH in order to Love My Country!
The United States Government IS NOT America! To criticize the Government or any part of it or public person in it is as kosher as Mom's Apple Pie in a Democracy. What makes America is the PEOPLE, not the Corporations, the politicians, the Rich and Powerful, nor boarders on a map, nor laws or political agreements or arguments - it's the Common People of America.
Now, please take some time to consider this while I go shopping for food this morning. Then, if you feel that any of this needs further clarification, I'll be more than happy to explain it to you further.
posted on June 9, 2002 10:47:35 AM new
1) "It is NOT possible to "Ride the President out of Town on a Rail after being Tarred and Feathered." Okay...That's what I don't understand. I take people's statements to be what they honestly believe/think. So you're saying you didn't really mean that? You were joking? Then why did you say the same thing in two different threads, since "It is NOT possible"?
2) Democracy 101 states: you have the Right to Dissent. Agreed...I don't question your right to dissent. I just form my opinions on what a person shares while they're dissenting.
4) The reason that people are elected to Congress is to represent the electorate; i.e., the People of America. Does that sound familiar at all?...I don't think we need to start being sarcastic with one another.
What I see in your posts is that there is no one in congress you think is acting in our best interests. ["the government is actively working against them and their best interest"] They're all out to get us. ["the threat from 'within' is always greater to the people of any nation than the threat from 'without'.] ["yellow-bellied Democratic politicians in Congress"] ["creating the KGB..of course, Congress will pass this with blinding speed]. ["The DNC is owned by the GOP"] Our system has checks and balances, so I really don't see that happening.
The media's lying to us...keeping the "truth" from us. The media's reporting 'fluff' stories..to "blot out all government news stories". They're all in this conspiracy together...all owed by the GOP.
The SEC...they're going to go along...after all..who wants to discover Anthrax their mail.
The Corporations are all evil type of statements. American was built and has become successful because of capitalism. Should we shut them all down? Might it not be better to use our justice system to deal those who are found to be breaking our laws?
5) So when our leaders ignore the United States Constitution and take authority that they do not have, then they commit crimes against the People of America. So...this is when you share the government should all be overthrown because it is [b]all[/i] corrupt? I believe in our justice system and I believe that if a leader is ignoring the US Const. they will be stopped. But when you've been asked why the Dem's aren't doing anything about these atrocities you scream because the Democratic Party is 'owns' them. When you say things like, "Were others in high government offices aware of the IMMINENT possiblity of a 9-11 attack ...you say it's very likely. So...that leads me to believe you don't trust that the American system is functioning at all in the average person's best interest.
Adding to your list..."The US Supreme Court went against the constitution."
6) I do NOT have to love BUSH in order to Love My Country! I agree. The United States Government IS NOT America! I disagree, in part, because the government does represent us, the American People. We elect our representitives according to their view/opinions on different subjects. We send them to congress/HRs to work towards solutions that we [individually] agree with.
[i]To criticize the Government or any part of it or public person in it is as kosher as Mom's Apple Pie in a Democracy. Agreed! It's the way in which that is done that I'm referring to. Many here have disagreed with each other...believe one party is corrupt and shout their praises about another. They usually offer another suggestion...like another party, candidate etc. But it appears to me you don't like any of the leaders that we have voted in to represent us. [They're all out to get us. It appears to me that you believe the system isn't working at all.
Then last, but not least, you make many statements about the president. Do you have that right to? Of course, just as I have a right to form my opinion that TO ME you seem very anti-America. ["Bush illegally declared war on his own..."] Has nothing to do with Bush...any president can do what he has done. Are you forgetting Vietnam, Korea, Desert Storm? Did Congress vote to declare them a war? No.
When you say "doesn't compare to the magnitude of Bush having preceipitated the 911 attacks on the USA"..."Bush is a TRAITOR". "Bush's private war...abusing his authority to order our troops to kill and get killed." "Bush is corrupt and anti-American." How many times I have seem you post Bush is anti-american. And without showing us proof of these serious claims....against any president of the USA.
And then you seem to think (?) I don't have a right to form my opinion that it is you who is anti-american?
posted on June 9, 2002 11:05:20 AM new
I have been asking for PROOF for a long time and it is something that can't be produced. Other than to say that so many others are saying it, then it must be true and email so and so if you want proof. Or the documented proof is forthcoming just you wait and see.
posted on June 9, 2002 11:08:27 AM new
There were an awful lot of anti-American republicans during the Clinton administration using your own theory of what anti-American is. The Republicans that posted here were ready to...dare I say it? run him out of office on a rail tarred and feathered! They were utterly gleeful when Newty and his bunch were digging sigging sigging for dirt...Oddly enough we were at war..the same war we are in now...at the time [all presidents since Carter have declared war on terrorism...congress has not yet done so so the war is the same one we've been fighting for decades]Why was it ok to distract Clinton from the terrorist war during his administration? Why was it ok to try to bring him down over and over again? Why is it not ok to now..under the same war conditions we were in then ...to dissent against the current administration? It is the ADMINISTRATION folks are upset with not America. You cannot be called anti-American for standing up and doing exactly what our forefathers wanted us to do. Query the goverment when it appears to be doing things that are not in this countries best interests. That is NOT anti-American.
Why is it that even though people here have repeatedly asked for one thing that Bush has done that is good for America I have never seen an answer? If what he is doing is so great you should be willing to scream it from the rooftops! Is there nothing he has done that is good? If so then why do you back him so vigorously? Simply becasue he is Republican? I don't understand and I really do want to.
posted on June 9, 2002 11:39:18 AM new
OK. First off let me say that I don't feel that any of the posters here are anti-American. We are all doing what we feel is right based on our own thoughts and ideas.
I believe anti-American is anyone or any group that works against the countrys..thereby the peoples.. best interests. Like the CEOs that ran Enron did.Like Neil Bush did with the savings and loan debacle. Anyone that is an American citizen that is working against what America stands for. I believe it is anti-American to wish harm on the country and the people in it like McVeigh did.
I do not believe it is anti-American to disagree strongly with any administration ...especially when all this is is talk.Just talk. No one is organizing a revoloution...we all want what is best for the country.We all just see it differently. I really love to hear both sides views expressed and even though there are two main sides there are mutiple variations that makes our views unique.
I still want to know one thing that makes Bush great.
I'm leaving for a few hours but hopefully, when I get back, there will be one reason posted.
[ edited by rawbunzel on Jun 9, 2002 11:40 AM ]
posted on June 9, 2002 11:43:57 AM new
I believe it would be anti-American to force everyone to shut up about what they feel. I believe it would be anti-American to not allow dissent. I believe it is anti-American to think all of us MUST think alike.
America is about diversity..in thought, in race, in political ideology. That fact that twe are able to get anything done in this country sometimes amazes me...but that is what makes America ..well...America.If we were all expected to think alike we might as well live in Communist China.
posted on June 9, 2002 11:44:55 AM new
Rawbunzel said: There were an awful lot of anti-American republicans during the Clinton administration using your own theory of what anti-American is. The Republicans that posted here were ready to...dare I say it? run him out of office on a rail tarred and feathered! They were utterly gleeful when Newty and his bunch were digging sigging sigging for dirt...Oddly enough we were at war..the same war we are in now...at the time [all presidents since Carter have declared war on terrorism...congress has not yet done so so the war is the same one we've been fighting for decades]Why was it ok to distract Clinton from the terrorist war during his administration? Why was it ok to try to bring him down over and over again? Why is it not ok to now..under the same war conditions we were in then ...to dissent against the current administration? It is the ADMINISTRATION folks are upset with not America. You cannot be called anti-American for standing up and doing exactly what our forefathers wanted us to do.
posted on June 9, 2002 11:53:07 AM new
Rawbunzel - There were an awful lot of anti-American republicans during the Clinton administration using your own theory of what anti-American is. May I ask what you are seeing as my theory?
posted on June 9, 2002 12:01:23 PM new
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posted on June 9, 2002 12:02:15 PM new
I did not specifically name you Linda but here is a quote of yours that seems to show that you belive speaking against the President to be anti-American.
"Then last, but not least, you make many statements about the president. Do you have that right to? Of course, just as I have a right to form my opinion that TO ME you seem very anti-America."
Now I have to go, Huband is waiting and none too patiently.
posted on June 9, 2002 12:47:05 PM new
Wow, Linda, you really are in the dark concerning my comments! Here, let me remark on your new comments/questions, perhaps that will clear things up for you:
"1) "It is NOT possible to "Ride the President out of Town on a Rail after being Tarred and Feathered." Okay...That's what I don't understand."
I'm going to try to put this as clearly and least insultingly as possible, Linda. We'll use Logic. OK, here's the premise: IF said comment is not possible in reality, THEN said comment cannot be taken literally (unless the author is a complete dope - which you know I'm not.) THEREFORE, if it cannot be taken Literally, then it should be examined Figuratively. Now do I need to digress further? I'll be happy to do so if that doesn't clear it up for you.
"4) The reason that people are elected to Congress is to represent the electorate; i.e., the People of America. Does that sound familiar at all?...I don't think we need to start being sarcastic with one another."
Recall that I wasn't the one to start out by making insulting comments. However, I wasn't being nasty there, but you can take it any way that you wish.
"What I see in your posts is that there is no one in congress you think is acting in our best interests. ["the government is actively working against them and their best interest"] They're all out to get us. ["the threat from 'within' is always greater to the people of any nation than the threat from 'without'.] ["yellow-bellied Democratic politicians in Congress"] ["creating the KGB..of course, Congress will pass this with blinding speed]. ["The DNC is owned by the GOP"] Our system has checks and balances, so I really don't see that happening. "
Linda, what is your educational background? I mean, do you read books, literature, history? I mean, REAL books - the 'Dry' stuff? I hate to take another person's questions, but really, What has Congress and/or the president done for us lately? So far, they've voted time and again on legislation that screws ordinary Americans over in favor of a few and/or corporations. I hardly am making wild assertions there!
"The Corporations are all evil type of statements. American was built and has become successful because of capitalism. Should we shut them all down?"
Linda, you are equating the self-centered interests of Multi-National Corporations with the political/Economic theory of Capitalism. Corporations are NOT Capitalism! Don't ask me to explain it - go take the time to read a good encyclopedia entry for Capitalism and its history. Also, America was built by the Blood, Sweat, and Tears of the ordinary worker and no other! Corporations are not people and only people can do great things, Linda.
"Might it not be better to use our justice system to deal those who are found to be breaking our laws?"
Surely, Linda, you are so knowledgeable as to recall that after the FBI Sting operations against Congressional politicians taking bribes of the late 1970's, that as soon as Ronald Reagan took office, Congress passed LAWS that Members of Congress CANNOT be investigated by any agency for wrongdoing? That only the Senate Ethics Committee has any 'right' to pass judgment on someone in Congress, and to levy fines and punishments? Linda, you ARE aware that this makes Congress voting themselves ABOVE THE LAW. So, let me ask you, Linda: if no one in Congress can be investigated by any policing agency of the United States, how are we uncover and punish wrongdoing? Getting the picture now?
"5) So when our leaders ignore the United States Constitution and take authority that they do not have, then they commit crimes against the People of America. So...this is when you share the government should all be overthrown because it is all corrupt?
Linda, please provide a single quote from me extolling or advocating the use of violence to overthrow the government; or advocate a revolution of any sort! Take your time - you won't find it, because I never have advocated the violent overthrow of the government or supported any revolution by arms against this country or government.
"Adding to your list..."The US Supreme Court went against the constitution."
They did. Evidently, you weren't paying attention. Linda, U.S. Constitution 101 states that ONLY by process of Amendments can you make changes to the Constitution and it gives the LEGAL process where this can be done, as it has been legally done in the past. When the Supreme Court decides to ignore the U.S. Constitution, what do you make of that? Do you know WHY there is a Federal-level Supreme court and what it's job is? If you did, you wouldn't be throwing this into my face.
To criticize the Government or any part of it . . . But it appears to me you don't like any of the leaders that we have voted in to represent us."
I actually do like a few of them. And, amazingly, they are from both reigning parties. But they, too, fail us when they take a party line vote on a matter that screws the ordinary American. For that reason, they do not get my 100% support. When we get someone in of any political party that votes 100% all of the time for the People of the United States of America on every issue, then they'll get my 100% support. But that's not possible, because you don't get party support if you don't compromise your values once in a while and screw the American People over in favor of Special Interests. There you have it.
"Then last, but not least, you make many statements about the president. Do you have that right to? Of course, just as I have a right to form my opinion that TO ME you seem very anti-America. ["Bush illegally declared war on his own..."] Has nothing to do with Bush...any president can do what he has done. Are you forgetting Vietnam, Korea, Desert Storm? Did Congress vote to declare them a war? No."
Linda, I recently had this discussion verbally with someone else. The difference between those conflicts and this one - from a LEGAL, Constitutional standpoint is that Bush, Jr. DECLARED WAR! No President has the Constitutional authority to Declare War under any circumstances. This is why these past conflicts may be called "The Vietnam WAR" or "The Gulf WAR", but in no case did the President dare to come out and publicly declare that America was at War! Furthermore, each of those past conflicts would be a large discussion in of itself as to why each one went the way it did. That is one big reason why America right now is so divided. Congress COULD HAVE Declared War, or that a State of War exists; or Bush, as Leader, could have pointed out those countries that "support and harbor terrorists, which we'll make no distinction about" {paraphrased - you know the quote} and then let Congress discharge their Constitutional Duties and Declare War on each country. But they haven't. Why? Because it is the natural inclination of politicians to avoid scandal and Congress, IMHO, knows more than they are letting on and are distancing themselves from the Bush camp by not getting involved at all in this. The only thing that *I* ask for is for Congress to either Declare War or to declare that we are Not At War.
"And then you seem to think (?) I don't have a right to form my opinion that it is you who is anti-American?"
You can have that opinion all that you want. And if, in turn, I can then say that you are a politically uneducated, mindless follower with no valid opinions of her own, and so, post thoughts that expose the depth of your ignorance in these matters, well, then that's just my opinion -- right? So do you really think that you are being polite to me by posting your opinions about me?
posted on June 9, 2002 01:42:42 PM new
Rawbunzel - Well...we can clear that up quickly. I believe Borillar and everyone else has the right to say what they want...and to dissent. Just as I have a right to take all the information they've shared and form an opinion. I don't ask that others support than opinion.
I agree with just about all of the things/people you listed and think are anti-american.
Would anyone be willing to share with me how to do a RT search? It's changed since I was here before.
Once again, I'm not sure, rabunzel, if you're directing the questions about Bush to me....or just to Republicans.
posted on June 9, 2002 02:10:38 PM new
Borillar - Linda, I have never said...../ I don't remember you saying anything specific about *violent overthrown* etc....more like hinting...offering as a suggestion to others....and that is the biggest part of my issue with your posts, and why I said what I did.
From having read these threads I do believe you to have stated [in some form] or encouraged in some form revolution against our government....because both parties, the media, all government offices, leaders, etc are corrupt. If I can find it I will. I believe I remember you comparing it to the Boston Tea Party. Can't state specifically.
As far as...."You can have that opinion all that you want. And if, in turn, I can then say that you are a politically uneducated, mindless follower with no valid opinions of her own, and so, post thoughts that expose the depth of your ignorance in these matters, well, then that's just my opinion -- right?
Yes, it is. Doesn't make me believe it to be true like most of what you post. Even the uneducated can vote, hold opinions and practice free speech. Just like me....what a wonderful country we live in.
So do you really think that you are being polite to me....? I formed an opinion on your posts as a whole, shared that opinion and I stand by that....yes. Polite...how does one politely say someone is anti-american. Have you been saying it 'politely' when you say it of President Bush. If you were...I mis-understood you....and apologize.
posted on June 9, 2002 02:24:58 PM new
http://web.archive.org/web/19991013082649/http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/
scroll all the way down and click "search message center". But be forewarned...all kinds of things will pop up from long ago...some you will be tempted to share because it makes you smile, others better left long forgotten. Dont want ya to get in trouble now by searching and bumping the wrong ones, lindak
posted on June 9, 2002 02:41:47 PM new
If criticizing the President is anti-American, what does that make all the Bill Clinton bashers when he was in office?
The freedom we have to question and criticize our government is what keeps us from being a totalitarian state. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on June 9, 2002 03:01:35 PM new
Thanks for making it clickable, yellowstone.
To find things not necessarily from your key words, just click the "previous topic" link at the top of the page of whatever popped up. You can go back, back, back. Or, get the "next topic" and go forward, forward, forward. I had a blast the other night..found my birthday thread from Oct of 2000, found the food link one, and so many more that were fun. Then again, you will stumble across more political threads too, along with ghosts of the past that may or may not post here anymore. Anyway you look at it, its a blast from the past.
posted on June 9, 2002 03:12:03 PM new
"Once again, I'm not sure, rabunzel, if you're directing the questions about Bush to me....or just to Republicans."
Linda, The question is directed ~and has been directed for nigh on two years now[since before the election] ~to anyone ,whether Republican,Democrat or Independent ,that happens to think Bush is doing wonderful things for our great country. So far in low these two long years not one NOT ONE Bush supporter has given reasons why I and other like me should think he is the cats meow. I am not the only one that asks. But silence is the only answer forthcoming. I really truly would like to believe that there is something I am not seeing about this man or this administration that is good and uplifting.I would really love to find out I am wrong. So please, Linda, since you do admire the man,feel free to answer the question because I really do want to know.
Oh, I nearly forot this:
"Rawbunzel - Well...we can clear that up quickly. I believe Borillar and everyone else has the right to say what they want...and to dissent. Just as I have a right to take all the information they've shared and form an opinion. I don't ask that others support than opinion. "
The difference is that I would never eversuggest that you or any Bush supporter is anti-American for feeling as you do and saying what you do.It is a hard earned right that we have been given in this country to say what we want to no matter if it is "politically correct". We are a diverse group with diverse ideas and I say thank God for that!
[ edited by rawbunzel on Jun 9, 2002 03:22 PM ]
posted on June 9, 2002 03:25:08 PM new
>>I had a blast the other night..found my birthday thread from Oct of 2000, found the food link one, and so many more that were fun.<<
Please fer chrissake don't dredge them up. I finally found a board that I nearly actually can keep up with, that is till you came back!
posted on June 9, 2002 04:00:02 PM new
When I click on that link, I get this message: "We're sorry, access to http://ad.doubleclick.net/adi/auctionwatch.com/home;cat=home;sz=468x60;stile=1;ord=2072843778 has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt." So I don't know what it said.
snowyegret - Please show me where I said that. I'm obviously not getting my point across, and I don't know how else to state it.
It's the *whole* picture of his comments...not just about Bush. All Americans are stupid....everythings wrong with everything in America...etc. That leads me to my conclusion.
I believe Borillar and everyone else has the right to say what they want...and to dissent. Just as I have a right to take all the information they've shared and form an opinion. I don't ask that others support than opinion.