This is not my problem. This is Linda_K's problem. Isn't it strange that when I question her insult, all of a sudden everyone is saying, in effect, poor Linda...she really means well.
Well if I had made such a mistake, I would have received a letter from Diana and everyone here would be on my ass.
Can you see this trend, rawbunzel?
I don't mean to be unfriendly about it, I'm just telling the truth.
posted on June 10, 2002 02:39:33 PM new
Helen, I don't think "poor Linda".She can handle herself.Did she mean well? I don't think I said that either. In my opinion she should not have called a fellow poster anti-American.However, as I said before I said my piece to her yesterday and I don't need to spend any more time on it. It is Lindas problem...and anyone else that sees it as theirs..perhaps she should examine why she thinks that speaking out against the administration is anti-
American but I cannot do it for her, nor can I force her into it. Nor do I want to.
As for a trend? That remains to be seen. Linda has only been back a short time.
posted on June 10, 2002 05:12:14 PM new
Please, everyone, thank you. Especially to rawbunzel for her honest opinion that coincided with mine, namely, that calling a person anti-American for voicing their opinion. Thank you also KRS, Helen, others, but it is unnecessary to go on as the rest of it did not bother me.
Let me just say this: after getting over the insult of being "anti-American", I thoroughly enjoyed my time with both Linda_K and with Yellowstone. It's true. That's because after my initial anger at being called ant-American wore off and I began to think about this, I realized that fate had entrusted to me a great onus. This will likely let the sheets of illusion fall, but I'll say that I realized what KRS has said above and that the blindless patriotism felt by Linda and many, many Americans can be Nationalism, rather than Patriotism. I felt that I was given the golden opportunity to address more than just Linda, but other Americans who are also at this juncture. It was a clear opportunity to define the concept of Patriotism to the reading public; which in our Democracy forces a kind of tolerance seldom felt by those who feel a Nationalist pride. Nationalism allows no other views ~ kinda like Fundamentalist version of religion.
So, if you look at how this debate progressed, Linda asked me questions that I was happy to answer for her. What eventually happened was that she began to see that what she had thought was "right" for Patriotism was not what she had thought. She eventually left the arena to think. I felt that there could be no better conclusion than that.
This is not to say that Linda is a bad person by any means. If Linda is bad because she confuses Nationalism with Patriotism, then two-thirds of Americans or more are bad as well, which I disagree that they are bad. It is the fault of politicians and political parties that have evoked Nationalism and labeled it incorrectly as Patriotism that is guilty for their confusion. I feel that the years of removing the importance of Citizenship and American History from High Schools has produced a nation of Americans whose ignorance is ripe for manipulating. It is therefore up to us to educate those who ask questions like Linda and Yellowstone does; as both of them are intelligent enough to understand that "something isn't adding up quite right" from what they have been told to believe. Instead of berating them, I ask that you cherish them and their comments, as I have. For it is from the seeds that you plant in these people that will keep the Truth alive, especially important in the times to come. Answer their questions politely and freely, no matter how they may address you in return. Remember that someone who is frightened will say or do things that they normally would not and regret them privately later on, how much less of an impact can having your belief system kicked out from under have?
posted on June 10, 2002 05:35:32 PM new
First of all I'd like to answer one point Helen [of course] made about me starting a thread to Borillar. I did so because I didn't want to further derail the thread that was on a different subject. That's why HELEN.
AND HELEN as for you to be the one accusing me of being rude...think pot, kettle, black. And if you'd notice I also asked Borillar if he'd like to take it to email. HE said no and I had questions I wanted to ask of him....to clarify my thoughts...to clarify the opinions I was/am forming.
I said what I meant, make no doubt about that. For me, many of his posts appear anti-american. When I wasn't posting on AW and I read the thread where he's sharing how we could overthrow the present government I couldn't believe it. DOES HE HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY THAT? Get this...YES!!! When I question him on it and he DENIES it...that tells me something too. Add to that all the criticizum he constantly makes about our country and it's leaders...that adds to my thinking too. Don't like it, don't agree? Fine. You're free to feel differently. It's my opinion. You don't agree...that's your right. You think less of me??? That's your right to.
I never, HELEN, said Borillar doesn't add to this board. NEVER!
Maybe I didn't make it as clear as someone else might have. I'm not well educated as KRS so graciously points out. He uses people's weakness/shortcomings against them when he doesn't agree with their statements. I've got tough skin and can take anything anyone says. Just because I don't have much of a formal education doesn't mean I can't read and listen to different political arguments and form an opinion of my own. I don't rememeber there being a requirement of a high IQ in order to vote in this country or state one's opinion.
But think about this. For months I've seen people question where are the Republicans? Why are the one's that are here...not answering our questions? Ask yourselves how many have left here because they don't see it as a place to freely debate.. to freely state their views. Not because they didn't have what it takes to back up their opinions, but because of all the harrassment they received because they thought differently.
There are many here who have my respect, because they don't do that.
The mature posters here will question another's view/opinion and call them on it without making it personal. So...you asked why..that's my opinion. Do I expect others to change for me...do things the way I'd prefer they be done. NO! I am only in control of what I do.
And Rawbunzel - to answer why I was asking people to share what they felt being anti-american was....wasn't because I don't know what it means to me. It's because I feel it's subjective, personal to each of us. I wanted to learn what other's thoughts were on the subject. That's all.
posted on June 10, 2002 05:58:31 PM new
I have no problem reading your opinions of my statements. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with them. Please understand that.
But while you are busy criticizing my statements/opinions and forming your opinion of me...is there any one here who feels I don't have the right to state them?
I don't think there is.
Borillar, maybe if we had taken this issue I'm having with your previous statements to email, things might have had a different outcome.
Possibly if I had been able to question you on my concerns about your posts, you would have been able to help me understand things you've been posting differently. I don't know.
As I've said before this is a hard medium for communication. [How the written word is said..and accepted.] Maybe if I had asked, "Your statements are coming across to me as anti-american...would you explain?"....you would have been able to make me see things differently. But that didn't happen.
posted on June 10, 2002 06:40:05 PM new
Linda_K, Just to prove the point about how easily things are misunderstood using this medium....the three smilies after that remark about why you asked people what they felt anti-american was...was a joke. Three smilies=joke. [1 smiley means I'm smiling while I type!]
I would like to hear your definition of what is anti-American though. So if you get in the mood to say I'd like to hear it.
Edited to add:
AW-W shucks Borillar, twarn't nothing.
you're welcome even though no thanks necessary. I wouldn't have said what I said if I didn't absolutely believe it.
[ edited by rawbunzel on Jun 10, 2002 06:54 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2002 07:06:59 PM new
Rawbunzel - Yes, but please understand I didn't misunderstand what you were saying. If my post made it sound that way, that wasn't the way it was meant. I saw your three 'friendly' smilies.
I shared that I agreed with most of what you shared it meant to you. I do wish more had shared their views of what it meant to them. I would add that part of being anti- american, TO ME , is also not working *within* the system for wanted/needed changes. Anyone doesn't like the way it's working...fine..no problem...change it. But not by advocating it's overthrown.
Just like when I read statements from the terrorists that say they want to destroy our country...I believe them. So when I read the statements I did...I believed he meant them.
Thanks for the invitation to come here more frequently.
I'm sorry it has taken so long for me to get back here to answer your rebut to my post but life happens.
As to the Education Bill. I don't agree with most of it. In Illinois we already test our kids to death when they should be learning and if our testing isn't up to par with what the federal government mandates we lose Title 1 monies and another year of not being able to track classes. What I do agree with is the accountability of teachers. I hope that will take some of the stench out of tenure. Some teachers are very good but some are very bad. The point I tried to make was he did push the bill through Congress. You asked what he had done which was good and I do see some good in it. Please don't forget that Congress was involved in this, that they gave their approval.
As for the ecconomy, I agree that there are many variables which have gone into the depreciation of our ecconomy but Greenspan is the head honcho and as Truman said "The buck stops here."
They called Lincoln "Emperor Lincoln", which was one of the nicer things they called him. They just didn't have a Hitler back then for reference.
As for the farm ecconomy, your analogy, quite frankly made light of an important issue to me. Trade wars have gone on much past the Clinton Administration. Also many other variables come into farming such as the weather, inflation, the fuel prices. There's and old saying which has proven true many times over. The country will go the way of the farmer.
As for the oil issue. I'll have to take your word for it. But, I think Americans rebelled and were heard. In fact, I think we scared the **** out of some important people.
I have been honest and sincere in what I have posted and have treated you with respect. I hope to continue in that manner.
Linda_K, You are a good sincere person.
krs, you are irrasible (probably didn't spell that right). I wondered where you were in all of this.
Helen, there's another old saying. "He who laughs last laughs best." You misunderstood what I had intended.
posted on June 11, 2002 02:11:01 AM new
It's irascible.
We've bought a new castle in.................are you ready, bunz.......the state of Washington! Nope, I'm not going to say where exactly. So I wasn't here and likely won't be much for a while to come as the move is proving to be quite a hassle. When I say lathe and milling machine to the movers they balk as if I were asking if they could handle six tons of gold bullion.
Although I am aware of the conflicting opinions of Lincoln, I really believed that your suggestion that history might compare Bush to Lincoln was intended to be humourous. In the future I will read your comments with careful consideration.
posted on June 11, 2002 12:01:15 PM new
KRS, That's great! I'm glad you've found a place. There are a lot of great places here.We're thinking of moving either up north or out to the peninsula . I want woods and at least an acre.
Don't you worry though, if you bought a castle then we'll never be neighbors! I'm more likely to end up in a mobile home. Hopefully it will at least be a double wide.
posted on June 11, 2002 12:48:36 PM new
You know, some of those are NICE! Chris would have none of it, but there were several that had been put onto acres with shops and landscaping that were so well done that it was hard to tell that they WERE mobile homes.
I've got what I wanted most which is insulation from the spread of development. We looked at so many nice places, but I'd look at how easily it would be to wake up to the sound of graders next place over. I always asked about the surrounding properties as much as about the one in question because I wanted to be able to know that I could live out my life without some jerk building an apartment house nearby. That was what we kept running into in Oregon, and there are some really horrific examples in that state where it was obvious that people had thought that they were in the country only to find the city arriving on their doorsteps a few years down the line. It could happen where we're going too, but we've got a buffer of five acres in every direction to keep them at bay. Zoned R-5, It's 20.65 total of forest and pasture with the house dead in the middle, set into the treeline. up maybe 100 ft. from the five acre pasture part. So I'll be able to place my guns to sweep the entire approach to the house and if they try to come from behind or by the flanks through the forested parts I'll have plenty of warning. I'm gonna' need an ATV to go get the mail. LOL!
Chris is ALL excited! I'd never seen her so happy as she was on the drive back down here on the day we made the deal, just chattering away a mile a minute about flowers and furnishings and all that.
posted on June 11, 2002 01:12:22 PM new
"So I'll be able to place my guns to sweep the entire approach to the house and if they try to come from behind or by the flanks through the forested parts I'll have plenty of warning. "
Are you sure you aren't moving to Idaho?
Sounds wonderful! We'd like to be insulated from development as well. I'd also like a private well.Mobile homes can be really nice. I've seen some I'd live in although I really prefer a nice old wood frame house.
Guess we are trying to go back to our "hippie" roots.
The cat died but the mother in law is still alive which means that we will be here for several years. We pay exorbitant taxes for the priviledge of living in the great state of Maryland just a few miles from ground zero, (Washington, DC) inhabitited by a diverse group of people of many nationalities. Sometimes I look out my front window expecting to see Ashcroft sitting on my curb looking for terrorists.
It's too late to be concerned about insulation from the spread of development.
Ken, you and your wife are very fortunate to have such a really great place!
If we survive the dirty bombs etc. I would like to move to a little shack on the water somewhere.
Good luck with your move, machine shop, etc.....and I thought moving a piano was a problem. LOL!
posted on June 11, 2002 02:57:11 PM new"Guess we are trying to go back to our "hippie" roots"
There's a lot of that, but thirty years ago I'd have gone for a few hundred acres far away from anything. Now we need the cities much more. For me - (here's a hint)- a VA hospital, actually a transplant center, is a requirement, and we're spoiled by some of the ease. My realtor kept pointing out that there's a Starbucks in the town until I told him that I'd never been in one and have no idea how to order any of that lat stuff. He seemed disapointed.
posted on June 11, 2002 03:39:06 PM newMy realtor kept pointing out that there's a Starbucks in the town until I told him that I'd never been in one and have no idea how to order any of that lat stuff.
You've been targeted. Shave the beard while there's still time.
posted on June 11, 2002 04:32:21 PM new
Thanks, krs. I remembered that this morning.
Enjoy your new home. Is that where the kids are?
Helen, It seems that we misunderstood each other. I meant that all presidents are judged in the end and had no intention of comparing Bush and Lincoln. Reading things written in the threads just reminded me of what was said about Lincoln back then. I just found it interesting that history was kind of repeating itself. Of course, I probably could have used several other presidents but he is the one I have studied the most. I'm sorry for misunderstanding you and not making myself more clear.
posted on June 11, 2002 05:13:11 PM new
We used to want to move up to the Northwoods of Canada when we were a bit younger. Now I just want to be away from the hustle and bustle of the big city and out where the birds sing and the crickets....um...just act like crickets I guess . I'd like to be just close enough in to be able to get into town when I had to without it being a overnight trip.A place by a lake would be great! Fishing! I love fishing!Ah....someday soon I hope.You are lucky, your new place sounds like a little slice of heaven.Hope you really like rain.
At least now with you moving to Washington I won't be the only one here that does not drink Lattes. I have never had a Starbucks coffee although I do own some of their cups to put my plain black stuff in.
posted on June 11, 2002 07:03:04 PM new
We just went up to Maple Valley to the old farm the girls were raised in, man, the developments are everywhere. We are moving this summer, and are still deciding.
We almost went for a new constuction in North Bend, it was 4 homes on the river, each with 1 acre, well the last one left they showed us, nice house, but... the back yard... had 4 'graveyard' septic tanks for all 4 houses. We both went 'NAAAAA' Its no wonder its not selling But damn, I like it up there.
I can't stand lattes, espressos, Italian sodas and all the other $5 drinks they have, and my youngest daughter is the barista at one
posted on June 11, 2002 07:11:37 PM new
The land sounds wonderful. Wanna rent me a space? Hubby just bought a travel trailor, and we can park it RIGHT NEXT DOOR to ya. Just think...we can have coffee every morning
nearthesea, I like ice mochas myself, but only from coffee bean and tealeaf, which is only in southern calif. Awesome stuff. Beats the heck outta nasty ol starbucks. And even better than CB&TL is coffe brewed over an open campfire.
posted on June 11, 2002 08:07:28 PM new
Hep that would be 'Cowboy Mocha' sounds good
Whats really ironic is that Mike works at Seattle Best Coffee, the corporate headquarters downtown. When my daughter first heard he worked for Seattles Best coffee, she got all upset, and said, 'is he a BARISTA too?' LOL He joked with her for awhile that he was, but no, he isn't
And he said he wouldn't mind the commute from North Bend to Seattle everyday, so maybe, and I hope
, is also not working *within* the system for wanted/needed changes. Anyone doesn't like the way it's working...fine..no problem...change it. But not by advocating it's overthrown.
