posted on July 1, 2002 09:29:15 PM new
The situation is not a matter of saying the pledge or not saying the pledge.
It is a matter of a government institution (the public schools) using a government employee (teacher) to lead the students in a pledge that asserts 1. that there is a God; and 2. that our nation is under such God.
To me that is establishing religion by our government.
The religious can use any number of ways to establish and propagate their religion. I can not understand why they feel it necessary or right to use the government in their religious exercises.
Believe me, your religion has much more to lose by entangling it with the government than the government has to lose.
posted on July 1, 2002 10:56:41 PM new
"We also should not expect God to bless this nation,there is no reason he should and we should."
I DON"T expect God to bless this nation.
The flaming ego that thinks that because you were born here you are better than someone born a few miles north in Canada or someone born a few miles South in Mexico amazes me.
If this nation chooses wrongly it will pass off the scene like any other nation has in the thousands of years they have all claimed support from some god or another.
The injustices and wrong deaths this country has committed are no different than any other country - many of whom also claim special relationships with God. That's what countries do - they survive by force. Sometimes it is ugly.
Does anyone believe that if the US drops an a bomb on Mecca that Allah will stay the laws of physics and make a miracle to preserve Islam?
If Bush believes God is protecting the US we don't need all those missile defense systems. I guess that special relationship with God is OK for propaganda but short on practicality - like stopping missiles. These big mouth politicians are a little short on faith aren't they?
I find the whole thing as silly as praying to win a baseball game - as if God favors one team over the other. Same hypocrisy - they practice and train - why don't they just pray?
People claim favor of God for the stupidest things. One of the girls that survived that church bus crash recently said the Lord reached down and saved her. What about the four that died? Were they false Christians and that's why they were allowed to die. Why didn't God keep the driver awake? And yet some idiot preacher will stand up and say God TOOK them like it was a favor to be squashed against concrete at 60 miles an hour.
The overwhelming similarity between all these religious proclamations is that people don't THINK before they spout off whatever comes to mind. Except for the preachers. I'm convinced most of them know they are lying.
[ edited by gravid on Jul 1, 2002 11:05 PM ]
posted on July 1, 2002 11:18:36 PM new"I liked, once again, James Taranto's take in his WSJ article. "
"The Year of Whose Lord? Incidentally, if the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional, the Constitution must be unconstitutional too. Just above the names of the Constitution's signers appear the following words: Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth. In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,
James Taranto seems to be as dimwitted as those who like what he has to say. The problem is not in the words, but in their meaning and if the government is making an endorsement of religion of any sort. That complaint above clearly shows the stupidity of trying to understand everything in black and white at their face value. That these types of people make it to adulthood should entitle them to be studied under the microscopes of scientists in order to understand how they beat the odds and haven't been killed by their siblings or neighbors for being such an embarrassment to the human race.
UBB
[ edited by Borillar on Jul 1, 2002 11:19 PM ]
posted on July 1, 2002 11:34:38 PM new
What really should be done is the lawyer who handled the governments case should now be sent to ellsmere island to determine the legal status of mice droppings on the tundra.
The Pledge says Under god, and while you may take that as an affirmative it could also be argued as an inqusitive. That is to say Under god could be taken as a questioning form especially since this prick has also thrown out the exxon valdez award and I warned you all aboutthis pussbag months ago but No No one would listen until he worked his balls up top this stunt. Better yewt send him with the lawyer to study mice droppings in Antartica give them both a magnifying glass.
posted on July 1, 2002 11:50:42 PM new
If we allow religion to invade our governemnt, it won't be long before the "christians" of this "christian" nation are howling when the muslims, hindus, and wiccans, start injecting their religion into the governemnt.
Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell were all for Bush's program to turn over funding and operation of some govt programs to religious institutions, that is until they relaized that this also meant that Louis Farakhan, wiccans, and satanists and all the other groups would be entitled to the same funding and operations.
If you value your religion and the right to teach your children your religion, you'll keep it out of government entanglements.
That wall of separation protects religion, not government. Politicians will use religion just like they use social security or the budget deficit once co-opyed into government.
Those that want to inject their religion into government may get what they wish under the present Supreme Court, but I guarantee they will regret it. It will just be a matter of time until these same groups are petitioning the Court to get the words god, allah, and lilith out of the Pledge of Alligence.
The recent court ruling that permits vouchers for private schools, of which the vast majority are religious, in a time bomb. It appears at first blush to be a wonderful opportunity for kids in lousy school systems, but wait until the other shoe drops. What is going to happen is that these schools will become dependent on the govt funding in short order, then the legislative branch will start attaching strings. The religious schools will then have to choose between fiscal ruin or meeting the govt demands.
And what shall we do with private schools accepting vouchers that have religious tenets that many find objectionable ? Perhaps a Louis Farakhan schhol that teaches hatred towards jews and white people and that American blacks should have their own "homeland"? Or how about a christian fundementalist school that teaches that woman are inferior to men, and the curriculum for girls is limited to housekeeping and child rearing ? Ah.. your tax dollars at work. No school board to compalin to or un-elect, or recall.
What the religious groups are advocating is that the "majority" should rule. Well.. you might be in the majority now, but demographics are changing rapidly in this country.
40 or 50 years from now we may very well have a huge latino and catholic majority in this country. Public schools should then have catholic mass and confession, and the language will be Spanish?
Majority rules- remember?
But the constitution isn't about majority rule. It is about basic freedoms and limitations on government that the government shall not invade, no matter how many people think it should. The Constitution protects political minorities from political majorities.
But once we cross the Rubicon that the majority determines what religion the governemnt shall support, just think about the real possibility that you won't be in the majority the next time around.
posted on July 2, 2002 12:05:17 AM new
What we really need is a study of some kind to see just why politicians are so slimey.
I mean this is not something new. You know when Washington's troops were wearing rags on their feet at valley forge there were shoes greedy suckers in the line of supply were ripping off the continental army and profiterring kind like colonial ebay.
posted on July 2, 2002 06:36:34 AM new
What I am saying is that these issues we discuss have been the fabric of our nation almost since it began. They have been embedded in our nation's history and traditions. "inalienable rights given by their "creator". etc etc. etc.
We've argued this on AW before. No one's going to change anyone's mind.
But I believe that's why we heard such a loud outcry from so many when these two judges, from a court that's had the majority of it's decisions overturned, made the decision they did. And I believe it will be overturned.
While we have freedom "from religion" we also have freedom "of" religion. And I believe that's some of the issue with this case.
Not the best example, but the smoking issue is an example I'll use. Yes, I agree no one should smoke....it's unhealthy..etc. But I also feel smokers should have the right to do so. Not be banned [by laws] from doing so because there are those who don't think they should. First it starts out with I don't want to be paying for my meal and have to smell the cigarette smoke. Okay...have smoking sections. To now, some cities are banning smokers from smoking outside. At that point it's gone too far in the other direction for my liking. Now smokers rights are being set aside.
Because this one lawyer doesn't want his daughter to listen to the pledge, those of us who want to must stop? I don't think so.
The 9th circuit appeals court is a joke. Something like 80% of their decisions have been overturned. They're a waste of tax payer dollars to the states they represent. The statistics I heard said that 54 out of 63 decisions were reversed in the years '96-'99. In 2000 8 out of 11 were reversed. In 2001 11 out of 15 were reversed. Says something to me.
posted on July 2, 2002 06:53:41 AM newIf we allow religion to invade our government, it won't be long before the "christians" of this "christian" nation are howling when the muslims, hindus, and wiccans, start injecting their religion into the government.
I see this differently. [Surprise ]
I believe the parents who cannot afford to send their children to a better learning environment, should have the choice of what school they want their children to attend. If that turns out to be a religious school of their choice, then I'm all for it....no matter the religion. The point is to get the child educated. Where that happens doesn't matter to me.
I also can envision a day, if the voucher system proves successful, where more private schools [non-religious] would open up to accommodate those who don't wish their child to attend a religious one.
Facts show that the children attending all forms of private schools are succeeding. Too many of the poor school districts children are not. Just look at the statistics for proof.
To me this is all about having a choice. Giving parents the choice to choose rather than forcing them to keep their children in an enviornment where they are failing.
posted on July 2, 2002 07:22:42 AM new
As long as the religeous schools offer the same quality of education that the public ones do or better.
By that I mean that the courses are not curtailed because of religeous taboos.
For example I would hate to see public money go to an Amish school where nothing of science or technology could be discussed past the date they decided everything should stop.
I think that is about 1870.
posted on July 2, 2002 07:44:23 AM new
Hi gravid - Even the Amish should have the right to educate their children the way they see fit. Do you think just because a group [any group] is forced to stay in a school where they aren't learning to read that's okay...just be sure they aren't sent to an Amish school? I don't think any but the people who support the Amish lifestyle would choose to put their children in an Amish school. And if they did, it'd be my opinion that they did so only to be able to give their children a better education.
That's my point. This is about giving the choice back to the parents.
Public schools were established so ALL children would be educated, no matter their parents incomes. But what we seem to have now is all those who can afford to have already pulled their children out of public schools and put them in schools of their choice. Look at our leadership in WA to see that pretty close to half of our representives who have school age children have them in private schools. Yet they vote down the poor from having that same right? If the public school system is so great...then why aren't they showing their support for them by having their children attend? Because they know they'll receive a much better education in those private schools, that's why...IMO.
Those in wealthy districts are, for the most part, comfortable with the education their children are getting. But the poor....shouldn't they still be guaranteed an "equal" education? I believe vouchers would give parents a chance to obtain this for their children.
What would be hurt by giving it a chance? If it fails...then nothing is really lost. But there is a chance things could be improved.
Vouchers are currently being handled in many different ways. Flexibility is good. Some parents have the choice of putting their children in a different school district. Public, but one that's showing better learning results. By having the funding from voucher, the public school the parent now wishes to place their child in, won't feel the pinch of additional students attending.
I believe it would, and has, caused the public school system to sit up and take note. They might be more likely to improve their schools so more parents would make the choice to stay right in their own districts.
MHO is that the reason a lot of democrats don't support the voucher system is because of their major funding from the teachers unions, who oppose it.
posted on July 2, 2002 08:30:41 AM new
Probably the greatest contributors to the decline in public education are the clone-like, airheaded "soccer moms and dads" who began to proliferate in the eighties. Though televangelists and political ideologues should also be given credit for their contributions.
The vouchers are pretty much token in helping parents to underwrite the cost of a quality secular private school education. Most Catholic schools are educationally sound but they have limited available space and the vouchers aren't large enough to begin to offset the cost of any expansions. The greatest effect of the vouchers will be to support the growing number of fundamentalist schools in the nation, most of which have sprung up to meet parental preferences, among which academic excellence doesn't top the list.
Regardless of what neoconservatives may think, I would wager that if it gains much popularity, the voucher system will create a logistical nightmare contributing to even more bureaucracy with an increased taxpayer expense.
posted on July 2, 2002 08:56:45 AM new
Studies are beginning to show positive results for vouchers.
The positive findings of the recently released study by researchers at Harvard University, Mathematica Policy Research, and the University of Wisconsin on how vouchers have affected achievement among poor students in New York City should come as no surprise. It is an example of a growing body of research that reveals both the achievement gains voucher-style approaches offer and the greater satisfaction among parents who use those vouchers to send their children to a school of choice.
In just three years, the effects of the School Choice Scholarships Foundation vouchers were sizeable. African-American students who primarily were poor and scored below average on the Iowa Test of Basic Skills and who used the SCSF vouchers to attend a private or parochial school improved their test scores in math by almost 10 percentile points in just one year.
That type of improvement is significant, both for the students and their parents, and for the nation.
posted on July 2, 2002 09:03:16 AM newThis is about giving the choice back to the parents
LindaK, parents have the choice between public and private education now.
What would be hurt by giving it a chance? If it fails...then nothing is really lost
Taxpayer dollars come to mind.
The vouchers do not cover the full tuition, so how does that help poor parents?
Religion belongs in the home and temples, not in government. Taxpayer dollars do not belong in religious coffers. You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on July 2, 2002 09:38:10 AM new
"Because this one lawyer doesn't want his daughter to listen to the pledge, those of us who want to must stop? I don't think so."
The issue has nothing to do with one child or 10 hearing the pledge. The issue is that the school is a govt institution, and the teacher is a govt employee. Would you feel the same way if the teacher had the children "under satan" ? Satan is a part of the "fabric" of judea-christian cultures.
"The 9th circuit appeals court is a joke. Something like 80% of their decisions have been overturned. They're a waste of tax payer dollars to the states they represent. The statistics I heard said that 54 out of 63 decisions were reversed in the years '96-'99. In 2000 8 out of 11 were reversed. In 2001 11 out of 15 were reversed. Says something to me."
What your stats don't show is that the 9th circuit is the largest and busiest circuit in the nation. How many decisions are overturned is not the measure of the court's quality. Many overturned decisions one day become Supreme Court holdings.
Why do private schools seem to do better ? The main reason is because the private schools have a choice regarding who can attend the school and who can remain at the school.
Public schools must take anyone who shows up, and may only temporarily expel disruptive students. Sooner or later the public school must re-admit the disruptive student.
Any school can show great results when they can pick and choose who attends.
What do you suppose a private school does when a student applies that doesn't speak English or is disabled ? A public school must accomodate these students.
Private schools have never faced the challenges that Public schools must face.
posted on July 2, 2002 09:46:35 AM new
Linda_K, you raise a troubling issue. Vouchers syphon money from public schools. In districts like mine most people are happy to send their kids to public schools. I agree that there are school districts that perform poorly, but I'd rather the money go to hiring good teachers and upgrading the facilities that are there.
As antiquary said most vouchers wouldn't begin to cover the cost of private school tuition. Nevermind the issues of embezzlement, false teaching credentials,racist doctrines,creationism,sexism, etc. that crop up routinely in the news. I know that some of these problems affect public schools also, but they may be more easily discovered and corrected. How much of our tax dollars should be spent policing private schools?
posted on July 2, 2002 09:55:43 AM new
I don't want taxpayer dollars used to support fundamentalist schools and other religious based schools. We should be focused on education and not religion.
How would you feel about the voucher system funding a school backed by a group such as the Ku Klux Klan or any other extremist group?
Besides that, the really poor children will not be able to take advantage of vouchers which do not offer full tuition to all private schools.
posted on July 2, 2002 09:56:11 AM newBut there are private 'non religious' schools also, and what is wrong with tax dollars going to that
A measly 14 % of private schools are non religious based. Here.
Listen, I'm a Jew. The Southern Baptists support conversion of the Jews, and even use deceptive tactics to do so. That to me means the destruction of my religion. I will not give them one penny. Taking my tax dollars for use by a group which supports spiritual genocide violates everything this country stands for. My uncle is 100% disabled from Pacific service in WW2, my grandfather (WW1), father(ww2), uncle(ww2), aunt(ww2), brother(VIETNAM), husband (Vietnam), and myself have served in the Armed Forces.
posted on July 2, 2002 10:54:08 AM new"Let the religions support their own schools."
Right, snowyegret!
Thanks for posting those links. I knew about the SBC campaign against the Catholic religion but I was not aware of this disgraceful and deceitful stand against Jews.
We need to improve public schools with our tax dollars and let the Churches support themselves.
John F. Kennedy....
"It is my firm belief that there should be separation of church and state as we understand it in the United States -- that is, that both church and state should be free to operate, without interference from each other in their respective areas of jurisdiction. We live in a liberal, democratic society which embraces wide varieties of belief and disbelief. There is no doubt in my mind that the pluralism which has developed under our Constitution, providing as it does a framework within which diverse opinions can exist side by side and by their interaction enrich the whole, is the most ideal system yet devised by man. I cannot conceive of a set of circumstances which would lead me to a different conclusion."
If my church attempted to influence me in a way which was improper or which affected adversely my responsibilities as a public servant sworn to uphold the Constitution, then I would reply to them that this was an improper action on their part. It was one to which I could not subscribe.
We do not want an official state church. If ninety-nine percent of the population were Catholics, I would still be opposed to it. I do not want civil power combined with religious power. I want to make it clear that I am committed as a matter of deep personal conviction to separation.
posted on July 2, 2002 10:55:13 AM new
LOL - Does it surprise me that most here disagree? No.
snowyegret - Yes, but one has to be rich to afford it. Taxpaper dollars? Well, if anyone checks on how much we've increased educational spending, in the last 10 years, with no positive results...I'd say the current system is wasting taxpaper dollars. Try something new. Don't keep funding a system that is failing the inner city children. Let it be the parents decision what they want to do.
NearTheSea - a huge %...yes, something like 87 percent. And as these programs show positive results more and more will become open to vouchers...in some form.
Reamond - You asked about Satan - My answer would be that those who don't want their child attending a school that worships satan, won't send them to one that does. any school can pick and choose The study results I shared above, didn't have any restrictions/requirements for the children...other than to be very far behind in their studies. They didn't exclude children/hand pick children. What about those who don't speak English Well, they could learn just like they did when I was going to school. There weren't all these 'special' interest groups. The child started school and learned the language. Most had already done so, to some degree, before they started school.
saabsister - taking money from public schools. It could, and has been, set up in a way that the child is just exchanging one public school for another. Just giving the parents the decision making ability if they felt the school their child is attending is not doing it's job. That way the un-preforming schools will be affected. But the children will at least get an education...they're not now. And I agree I'd rather see the money go to hiring good teacher and upgrading.....but that's not happening for the inner city kids. How long are we as a nation going to sit by and let it continue. Something has to change. We're graduating too many high school students that can't read. They deserve better, IMO. vouchers don't cover the cost of private schools (Get ready to hear the screams) Many religious schools do fund what the parents can't pay. Many attend free, paid for by the support church. So, because the parents might choose to put their child in a religious school, you don't want them to have that right? Do I have all the answers? Of course not. But it's my belief that each parent is the one who's in the best position to decide what's best for their child.
To me, that's what this is all about. Choice. Freedom "of" religion. While those who prefer to enjoy Freedom "from" religion can make other choices for their children.
posted on July 2, 2002 11:15:53 AM new
Linda_K. I'm concerned about the curricula at some of these schools. Will children be taught creationism instead of hard science? If so, what happens to these kids when they apply for college or go into the work force? Do they have to continue by applying to "Christian" colleges.( I'm not talking about academically recognized private colleges.) Will they become a fringe group in our society?
I moved to a state (Virginia) that wouldn't allow me as a female to attend some of the state colleges that my tax dollars supported. I don't want any of my money spent teaching any little girl that she is a second class citizen in our society.
posted on July 2, 2002 11:27:02 AM new Linda's quote
"Reamond - You asked about Satan - My answer would be that those who don't want their child attending a school that worships satan, won't send them to one that does."
end quote
Good grief! Do you, Linda K, want tax money to support a school that teaches Satan as in REAMONDS example? Can you imagine the groups that will suddenly become a religion and start sucking in voucher money.
Give me a break. This is a plan from hell, masquerading as an education plan.
Furthermore it's deceitful to lead people to believe that this is good for inner city children. Inner city children need public school funding so that they can hire good teachers for all the children.
The children who need the funds most will be left right where they are, with poor teachers and less funding than they have right now.
posted on July 2, 2002 11:36:26 AM new
Just to make sure you know what I meant about the Amish - I am afraid of some schools becoming schools in name only - like the schools in Afganistan where the only text book is the Koran and they learn enough Arabic to read that and as far as they are concerned ALL WISDOM resides in it and the school does not teach math - history - or any modern subject.
Schools like that leave a student unable to function outside the closed society that is basically making them a prisoner of their culture. They have no choice. I don't think we should have to support those that want to isolate themselves from the rest of us to that degree.
The implied contract has always been that society benefits from supporting the schools.
But what benefit would everyone get from a totally isolated school system that serves up only propaganda?
posted on July 2, 2002 11:44:47 AM new
Linda, how will vouchers that support mainly religious schools, but do not pay a large portion of the tuition help the kids in Camden, NJ or any other blighted urban area? Those parents cannot pay the rest of the tuition. The feds should pick up the rest of the tab? Wouldn't that be <gasp> entitlements? So if you're of an approved religion, your kid can get a private school education? That would automatically grant second class status to other religions. I repeat, that is not what this country is about. If you want a private education for your kids, pay for it yourself.
You didn't address my issues with my tax dollars going to a church which tries to convert, by overt and deceptive means, my coreligionists. It is spiritual genocide, and for tax dollars to go to that is not what our Founding Fathers intended.
Helen, it's not just the Catholics and Jews. I found an article by Ghandhi about the conversion of Hindus, and Elie Wiesel also wrote a good one. I'll look for them later.
State sponsered religions almost always lead to a second class of citizens, those who are not of the approved church. It is true in Muslim countries, in Israel, and I do not want to see it here. This country is not about the rights of the majority, it is about protecting the rights of all citizens.
You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on July 2, 2002 12:05:24 PM new
I don't think that a 'non Catholic' attending a Catholic school will be subjected to 'religion class' (as we used to call it)
Though I have not seen how parochial schools are run lately, its been a very long time since I attended. Back then, there were few to none 'non Catholic' kids attending.
Catholics, where I grew up anyway, never did go out of their way to 'convert' anyone to Catholicism.
And when you wanted to convert, you had to go through a year or more of religious 'training' and all the 'sacrements'.
When I attended parochial school, they said when graduating from Catholic high school, it was equivalent to 1 year of college. (though you couldn't skip a year of college because of it you just had an advantage)
I don't know if that holds true any longer?
posted on July 2, 2002 12:26:19 PM new
"Reamond - You asked about Satan - My answer would be that those who don't want their child attending a school that worships satan, won't send them to one that does. any school can pick and choose The study results I shared above, didn't have any restrictions/requirements for the children...other than to be very far behind in their studies."
But do you want your tax dollars supporting a "Satan" school ?
Picking and choosing what students can attend a private school is exactly what private schools are about. It is also why their students appear to do better.
I also do not think that merely throwing money at poor inner city schools will solve the problem. Many suburban schools spend less per student than DC or Cleveland.
It takes a community of parents committed to a strong school system, and parents with the resources and goal to have a seamless transition between school and home.
If a child spends its first 6 years and beyond in a functionally illeterate, impoverished, one parent or no parent, and perhaps criminal environment, how do you expect the public schools to change that child by having the child a few hours a day and for 9 months a year ?
One of the first things private schools inquire about when you apply is parental involvement. This is second only to whether you can afford the school.
The bottom line is that private schools do not have to accept every student that applies, and they don't.
Are there examples of a poor child thriving in a private school ? Sure there is. But there is not now, nor will there ever be an example of a private school filled exclusively with poor single parent children that does well.
Private schools don't address the needs of the poor children any better than a public school. The private schools just don't accept the problem children that the public schools must.
Imagine a baseball team in which you had to take and play the first nine children that show up, while I can pick my players from the city's population. I'll beat your team everytime.
posted on July 2, 2002 12:27:59 PM new
saabsister - I'm not trying to change anyone's mind/opinion. Just sharing a different point of view.
I'm concerned about the curricula at some of these schools. Will children be taught creationism instead of hard science? I wouldn't be able to answer that. Each parent would have to do their own homework and decided if any given school's policies were agreeable to their way of thinking.
If so, what happens to these kids when they apply for college or go into the work force? Not sure I'm understanding your question. Millions of religious and non religious have attended religious schools and have gone on to public colleges. The private/religious school children are almost always ahead, academically than those in public schools. Some who attended religious schools also go on to religious colleges.
Have you ever known anyone who's child has been educated outside the public school system? They have no problem accelerating in a public college or university....no more than anyone else. My personal opinion is they do much better in college/U as they've had a much better education.
I moved to a state (Virginia) that wouldn't allow me as a female to attend some of the state colleges that my tax dollars supported. I don't want any of my money spent teaching any little girl that she is a second class citizen in our society. Well...see there are other problems that exist that don't involve voucher. It has never been my experience that religious school teach girls to be 'second class citizens'.
I don't know if that holds true any longer either. It probably depends on the school. Some public schools at the Junior High level are equivalent to one year of some colleges.
It depends on which college you are considering.
Helen
ed to add the name nearthesea
[ edited by Helenjw on Jul 2, 2002 12:30 PM ]
Apparently your information about the Peterson-Howell Research came from an interpretation by the Heritage Foundation which selected some information and omitted other information in order to reach its glowing conclusions. In fact, the researchers themselves state that their findings should not be used as an argument to support large scale voucher programs and that " there was no overall private school impact." I wonder how they could have missed including that information?
Though a bit long, I've posted the academic paper below (documented with a list of sources at the end). It gives a brief summary of the problems with the study and very importantly the information that the white and Hispanic students showed no noticeable progress; in fact, the achievement of Hispanic students actually declined in some instances.
I decided to include the paper below because it also includes basic findings from other projects and it is a documented research paper. I think that this fact is important because, in an age when the ability to read and analyze information with reasonable objectivity is critical to understanding the world around us, the danger exists that students attending private schools with an ideological or religious bias might not receive instruction in logical analysis, but rather, in its place, learn to manipulate information to support prejudices.
Vouchers: What the Most Recent Research Shows This week, Harvard University professor Paul E. Peterson is addressing a Heritage Foundation audience to discuss his research on voucher students in various cities, including New York City. Peterson's message is likely to resemble the presentation that he and University of Wisconsin-Madison professor William G. Howell gave only a few weeks ago at a Brookings Institution symposium, reviewing a Peterson-Howell report on a three-year study of voucher students. The three-year study compared a "treatment" group (students who used a voucher to switch to a private school) with a "control" group (students who attended public schools). In its findings, the Peterson research team reported that African-American voucher students consistently outscored those who remained in public schools. One newspaper trumpeted the Peterson-Howell research in an article headlined: "Scores of blacks rise with vouchers."4 But this upbeat coverage-and what is likely to be a similar spin by pro-voucher groups in the months ahead-is unjustified by the data, nor does it answer several questions raised by the data. In fact, Peterson and Howell specifically admitted that their three-year findings should not be used as an argument in favor of a "large-scale voucher program" serving all children in an urban school system.52
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Voucher supporters are putting an upbeat spin on the Peterson-Howell report, even the authors concluded that there was "no overall private school impact" on the student test scores of those using vouchers though. While voucher supporters are likely to focus on the three-year data showing gains for African-American voucher students, there are nagging concerns and questions about the Peterson-Howell data. For example, there were large fluctuations among subgroups and across the various years of the study, even in New York City. It is also worth noting that neither white nor Hispanic voucher students showed any academic gains over their public school peers. Additionally, a review of the New York City data reveals that reading scores actually declined for all groups of Hispanic voucher students, except for those in 7th grade. Peterson and Howell have made considerable effort to explain why black scores improved and why white and Hispanic scores did not-but to no avail. 6All of these considerations help to explain why Peterson and Howell concluded that there is "no overall private school impact of switching to a private school on student test scores ..."7Finally, this isn't the first time a Peterson-led voucher study yielded a host of questions or concerns. The conclusions drawn by Peterson from a voucher study released in August 2000 were seriously challenged. (The 2000 data were part of the overall three-year study that Peterson and Howell recently released.) Researchers Alex Molnar and Charles Achilles raised concerns about the August 2000 data, warning that the Peterson team's use of averaged results "may make the achievement impact reported appear more generalized than it is."8And Mathematica Policy Research, one of the partners in the August 2000 study, was so disturbed by the conclusions drawn by the Peterson team that the firm took the extraordinary step of issuing a press statement entitled "Voucher Claims of Success Are Premature in New York City." Referring to the August 2000 data, Mathematica cautioned policymakers against "setting policy based on the overall modest impacts on test scores."9Findings on Cleveland and Milwaukee Voucher Plans Over the past few years, other research and analyses of voucher programs have failed to buttress the case being made by voucher supporters. Last fall, the U.S. General Accounting Office reviewed state evaluations and found little or no difference between the academic achievement of voucher students and public school students in Cleveland and Milwaukee-the two major urban school systems with publicly funded voucher programs. 10Indiana University researcher Kim Metcalf, who has spent several years studying the Cleveland program, released a report last year comparing groups of voucher students and public school students from the time they entered first grade through the end of second grade. While voucher students had higher total test scores entering first grade, this advantage quickly began to erode. Over this two-year period, the report revealed that the public school students demonstrated average learning gains that were greater in language, reading and math than the voucher students.113
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Voucher supporters have cited isolated data from last year's Indiana University report, claiming that Metcalf's research proves that vouchers boost academic performance. Yet Metcalf himself wrote that the analysis of student test results from voucher schools and public schools "presented no clear or consistent pattern tha[t] can be attributable to [voucher] program participation." Echoing this view, the Ohio Department of Education summed up the study in distinctly lukewarm terms, noting that voucher students "perform at a similar academic level as public school students." 12The Milwaukee voucher program has received only one comprehensive state evaluation, conducted in 1995 by a University of Wisconsin-Madison team led by professor John Witte. 13Reviewing the voucher program's first five years, Witte found no appreciable academic gains in reading and math from vouchers.14He also observed that the attrition rates for voucher students were high, especially in the first two years. 15Using Witte's data, a research team led by Peterson employed different assumptions and statistical techniques, claiming that there was a statistically significant gain for voucher students in the third and fourth years of the program. 16But this finding was disputed by many in the research community, who argued that by the third year the control and experimental groups were not comparable. The annual attrition rate (about 30 percent)-consisting primarily of students doing poorly in the voucher program-ensured that those students who remained were an academically superior subset, not a random sample. 17Other aspects of the methodology used by the Peterson team to re-analyze the Milwaukee data have been criticized, including the Peterson team's reliance, in some cases, on tiny samples-in one instance, a sample of 26 students. 18The Peterson team's re-analysis was described by Witte as a "confusing, tortured effort," and even the pro-voucher Wall Street Journal wrote that Peterson was "loose with his claims."1 9Since the 1995 state evaluation, voucher supporters have shown no enthusiasm for new efforts to examine the program's impact on student achievement. In fact, after the lackluster results of this evaluation were released, Wisconsin legislators eliminated provisions calling for future academic evaluations of the program. 20Since then, the Legislature has provided only for a single audit by the state's Legislative Audit Bureau in the year 2000. This audit observed: "Some hopes for the program-most notably, that it would increase participating students' academic achievement-cannot be documented, largely because uniform testing is not required in participating schools." 21Some voucher supporters have cited research by Princeton University's Cecilia Rouse that reported math gains for Milwaukee voucher students. 22Yet, the findings Rouse cited were only for the subgroup of students who were in the voucher program over a four-year period. As noted earlier, student attrition rates come into play because Witte found that "voucher students who left the [Milwaukee] program for various reasons had lower test scores than those who continued to participate [emphasis in original]." 23Clearly, a full and accurate assessment of voucher schools considers not simply those students who use a voucher and remain in the voucher school, but, rather, all students who entered the voucher program. In simple terms, students who do well in voucher schools are more likely to stay-those doing poorly are more likely to leave or drop out. Additionally, Rouse found that "the [voucher] 4
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5effects on the reading scores are as often negative as positive and are nearly always statistically indistinguishable from zero." 24The Voucher `Competition' Myth Voucher supporters such as researcher Jay Greene claim that vouchers have a positive impact on publicschool students because the threat they pose leads public schools to improve. In a February 2001 report, Greene asserted that the "Florida A+" voucher program led to public school gains. But researchers at Rutgers University and the University of Colorado at Boulder identified serious flaws in Greene's analysis. 25Stanford University professor Martin Carnoy found that under the accountability system that Florida created beforevouchers existed, student improvement was greater than after the so-called `voucher threat' was introduced. 26Voucher supporters claim that public schools won't improve without "competition." Yet, last year, numerous large urban public school districts raised both math and reading scores without the presence of a publicly funded voucher program. Greene also neglected to consider the significant impact of extra resources, both state and local, which were directed towards Florida's `F'-rated public schools. These resources enabled the schools to extend the school day, week, and year, as well as strengthen professional development for teachers. These elements-combined with accountability measures-may well have been the real cause of improvements in these Florida public schools. 27While pro-voucher forces claim that public schools won't improve without "competition" from voucher programs, the evidence dispels this myth. In fact, public school districts in Los Angeles, Baltimore, Dallas, Portland, Minneapolis, San Diego, Birmingham and Seattle raised both their reading and math scores last year in every grade tested-and each of these urban districts did so without the presence of a publicly funded voucher program. 28Indeed, Greene's own research leads to the conclusion that accountability, testing, and increased resources led to public school improvement in Texas, a state which has no publicly funded voucher program. 29Voucher supporters also cite Harvard University researcher Caroline Hoxby's finding that competition from private schools spurs improvements in public schools. But Duke University professor Helen Ladd and other analysts have questioned Hoxby's conclusions. In a study published earlier this year, Ladd observed that other researchers "have used better data and alternative methods and have found no positive effects on public school achievement from competition from private schools. "30Class Size Reduction: What We Know In stark contrast to vouchers, the research supporting the benefits of class-size reduction is both ample and compelling. Indeed, a considerable body of research demonstrates that significantly reducing class sizes in the early elementary grades has a major impact in
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helping to close the achievement gap between white and minority students. This finding is supported by one of the most large-scale, comprehensive studies ever conducted in education: the Tennessee project called Student-Teacher Achievement Ratio or STAR. The highly respected Harvard statistician Frederick Mosteller has called STAR "one of the most important educational investigations ever carried out." 31In an evaluation involving more than 11,000 students, STAR researchers compared the progress of students who were in smaller K-3 classes in 1985-89 (pupil-teacher ratios of 14-16 to 1) to students who attended regular-sized classes. Researchers found that smaller-class students outperformed their peers in regular-sized classes during those years. 32More significantly, however, the smaller-class students continued to outpace their peers in math, reading and science for many years to come-even long afterreturning to regular-sized classes in later years. In fact, the gap in test scores between students in the smaller classes and the regular classes increased over time. STAR researchers also found that the black-white gap in taking college-preparatory exams was cut in half for those minorities who had been in smaller classes. 33Smaller-class students were not only more likely to take college-prep exams, but they also scored higher on these exams. 34Jeremy Finn, a professor at the State University of New York, has observed that the STAR research "leaves no doubt that small classes have an advantage over larger classes" in raising student achievement. 35The benefits of significant class-size reduction have also been demonstrated in other states. Started in 1996, Wisconsin's Student Achievement Guarantee in Education (SAGE) is a statewide class-size reduction program that has enjoyed strong bipartisan support and is targeted to low-income students in grades K-3. SAGE provides participating schools with $2,000 per student to reduce classes to pupil-teacher ratios of 15-1. The program requires participating schools to hold extended hours and provide community services to district residents. SAGE guidelines also require the development of rigorous curriculum and staff development. In the 2001-02 school year, more than 81,000 students statewide are participating in SAGE. 36There is extensive research-based evidence supporting SAGE's success in helping to improve student performance. In an evaluation of SAGE and comparison schools, 29 of the top 30 classrooms as measured by student achievement in language arts, reading and math were SAGE classrooms. The achievement gap in language arts and math between African-American and white first-grade students was reduced in SAGE classrooms while it increasedin comparison schools. Black second- and third-grade students in SAGE schools scored higher on every test than their black peers in the comparison schools. 37Results from the recently released 5th-year evaluation of SAGE reinforce these findings. 38The intensive and ongoing evaluations of SAGE by Wisconsin officials stand in stark contrast to the Milwaukee voucher program, which was the subject of only one state evaluation-now seven years old. Moreover, the SAGE findings are consistent with research obtained on the impact of class-size reduction in other states. For example, smaller classes were identified in a RAND study 6
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as one of the "major contributions" to Texas' significant achievement gains during the 1990s. 39Class-Size Reduction Versus Vouchers How does class-size reduction compare with school vouchers? It's a question that we can answer with surprising clarity thanks to a growing body of research. A 1998 studyfound that Milwaukee public school students in smaller classes had higher reading scores than those who used vouchers to attend the city's private schools. Princeton University researcher Cecilia Rouse, whose findings have been cited by voucher supporters, conducted a study in 1998 comparing Milwaukee's voucher schools with the city's P-5 schools-public schools with small class sizes and additional targeted funding (similar to SAGE). "The results suggest," Rouse concluded, "that students in P-5 schools have math test score gains similar to those in the [voucher] schools, and that students in the P-5 schools out perform students in the [voucher] schools in reading." Rouse went on to explain: "Given that the pupil-teacher ratios in the P-5 and [voucher] schools are significantly smaller than those in the other public schools, one potential explanation for these results is that students perform well in schools with smaller class sizes [emphasis in original]. "40In other words, improved test scores for some voucher students may have been the result of attending smaller classes. Princeton University researchers Alan Krueger and Diane Whitmore compared the effect of attending a smaller class to the effect of receiving a private-school voucher. Despite the serious questions raised about the Peterson team's August 2000 voucher study, Krueger and Whitmore used the study's data on African-American voucher students for the sake of comparison. (Keep in mind, in the August 2000 study African-Americans were the only subgroup of voucher students who showed significant gains.) Even in this context, Krueger and Whitmore found that black students who had attended small classes "improved their test performance by around 50 percent more than the gain experienced by black students who attended a private school as a result of receiving a voucher ..."41Although, in statistical terms, class size doesn't emerge as a determining factor in the African-American gains cited in Peterson-Howell's three-year evaluation of voucher students, it is clear that these voucher students were in smaller schools with smaller class sizes, and more after-school and tutorial programs.42Indeed, this is a powerful irony. The African-American voucher students were learning in the very educational climate that many policy analysts have long sought for publicschools- a climate that is incredibly difficult to create when a state diverts substantial tax dollars to vouchers. 7
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ENDNOTES 1Lynn Olson and Debra Viadero, "Law Mandates Scientific Base for Research," Education Week, January 30, 2002; accessed April 2002 via: www.edweek.org/edsearch.cfm. 2ibid. 3Alan B. Krueger and Diane M. Whitmore, "Would Smaller Classes Help Close the Black-White Achievement Gap?" Working Paper #451, Princeton University, Industrial Relations Section, March 2001; accessed May 2002 via: www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/working_papers.html 4Cheryl Wetzstein, "Scores of Blacks Rise With Vouchers," The Washington Times, May 9, 2002. 5William G. Howell, Paul E. Peterson et al, The Education Gap: Vouchers and Urban Schools, (Brookings Institution Press: Washington, D.C., 2002), p. 166. 6Daniel P. Mayer, Paul E. Peterson, David E. Myers, Christina Clark Tuttle and William G. Howell, "School Choice in New York City After Three Years: An Evaluation of the School Choice Scholarships Program," Final Report, Mathematica Policy Research, Inc., February 19, 2002. 7ibid. 8Alex Molnar and Charles Achilles, "Voucher and Class-Size Research," Education Week, October 25, 2000, p. 64. 9ibid. 10Mary Ann Zehr, "Effect of Vouchers on Achievement Unclear, GAO Says," Education Week, October 10, 2001; accessible via Web at: www.edweek.org 11Kim Metcalf, "Evaluation of the Cleveland Scholarship Program, 1998-2000: Technical Report." Bloomington IN: Indiana Center for Evaluation, Indiana University, September 2001. 12"Ohio Takes a National Lead in Choice Study," Ohio Department of Education, September 4, 2001, accessed via: www.ode.state.oh.us. 13People for the American Way Foundation, "Punishing Success: The Governor's Proposed Education Budget in Wisconsin and the SAGE and Voucher Programs," April 2001, p.3. 14John Witte, et al., "Fourth Year Report: The Milwaukee Parental Choice Program," Madison, WI: Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction, 1994, p. 2. 15JohnWitte, "Fifth Year Report: The Milwaukee Parental Choice Program," Madison, WI: Robert M. La Follette Institute of Public Affairs, University of Wisconsin-Madison, 1995, p. 2. 16Jay Greene, Paul Peterson, and Jiangtao Du, "The Effectiveness of School Choice in Milwaukee: A Secondary Analysis of Data from the Program's Evaluation," Cambridge, MA: Harvard University, John F. Kennedy School of Government, 1996, p. 3. 17Henry M. Levin , "Educational Vouchers: Effectiveness, Choice and Costs," Journal of Policy Analysis and Management, Vol. 17, no. 3, 373-392, p. 377; Correspondence to the office of U.S. Senator Edward Kennedy on Greene, Peterson and Du's analysis from Peter Cookson, Jr., Ph.D., Director, Center for Educational Outreach and Innovation, Teachers College, Columbia University, August 23, 1996. 18Correspondence from Peter Cookson, Jr.; John Witte, "Reply to Greene, Peterson and Du: The Effectiveness of School Choice in Milwaukee: A secondary analysis of data from the program's evaluation," August 23, 1996. 19Witte reply, August 23, 1996; Bob Davis, "Class Warfare: Dueling Professors Have Milwaukee Dazed Over School Vouchers," The Wall Street Journal, October 11, 1996, pp. 1ff. 20ibid. 21Letter of Transmittal for An Evaluation: Milwaukee Parental Choice Program, Janice Mueller, State Auditor to Senator Gary R. George and Representative Carol Kelso, Co-Chairpersons, Joint Legislative Audit Committee, February 2, 2000. 22Cecilia Rouse, "Private School Vouchers and Student Achievement: An Evaluation of the Milwaukee Parental Choice Program," Quarterly Journal of Economics, vol. 113, no. 2, May 1998, pp. 553-602. 23Center on Education Policy, "School Vouchers: What We Know and Don't Know - And How We Could Learn More", available at http://www.ctredpol.org/pubs/booklets.html. 24Cecilia Rouse, "Private School Vouchers and Student Achievement: An Evaluation of the Milwaukee Parental Choice Program," Quarterly Journal of Economics, vol. 113, no. 2, May 1998, pp. 553-602. 25Gregory Camilli and Katrina Bulkley, "Critique of `An Evaluation of the Florida A-Plus Accountability and School Choice Program,' " Education Policy Analysis Archives, v. 9, no. 7, March 4, 2001, accessed March 9, 8
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2001 via: http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v9n7/>; Haggai Kupermintz, "The Effects of Vouchers on School Improvement: Another Look at the Florida Data," Education Policy Analysis Archives, v. 9, no. 8, March 19, 2001, accessed March 22, 2001 via: http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v9n8/>, accessed March 22, 2001. 26Martin Carnoy, "Do School Vouchers Improve Student Performance?," Washington, D.C.: Economic Policy Institute, 2001.27"False Claims about the Threat of Vouchers and School Improvement in Florida," People for the American Way Foundation, April 2001. 28Data is from a study by the Council of Great City Schools, as reported by Robert C. Johnston, "Test Scores Up in Urban Districts, Report Says," Education Week, May 30, 2001. 29Jay P. Greene, "The Texas School Miracle Is for Real," City Journal, vol. 10, no. 3, Summer 2000. 30Helen F. Ladd, Market-Based Reforms in Urban Education, Economic Policy Institute, 2002; accessible via the Web at: http://www.epinet.org/books/educationreform.pdf 31Mosteller quote is from "Research on the Academic Effects of Small Class Size," Class Size and Students At Risk: What is Known?...What is Next? U.S. Department of Education, April 1998; accessed May 2002 via: http://www.ed.gov/pubs/ClassSize/academic.html. 32In all, the test scores of about 11,600 students were monitored in project STAR. For more details, see: Alex Molnar and Charles Achilles, "Voucher and Class-Size Research," Education Week, October 25, 2000, p. 64. 33Debra Viadero, "Tennessee Class-size Study Finds Long-term Benefits," Education Week, May 5, 1999; "Benefits of Small Classes Pay Off at Graduation," Project STAR News, Lebanon, TN: Health and Education Research Operative Services (HEROS), Inc., April 1999. 34This is based on a report by Princeton professor Alan Krueger and Princeton researcher Diane Whitmore. The report's findings are summarized in "Class Size Makes a Difference," Princeton Weekly Bulletin, May 21, 2001, Vol. 90, No. 28. 35Quote by Finn is taken from: "Class-Size Reduction," Web site of the National PTA, accessed May 2002 via: www.pta.org/ptawashington/issues/classsize.asp. 36"SAGE Facts," Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction, 2001; accessed April 2002 via: www.dpi.state.wi.us/ (Note: Schools that elect to participate in SAGE must reduce class sizes for all students throughout the grade, not simply in those classes with low-income students since to do otherwise would result in economic segregation of students. Thus, SAGE has a multiplier effect.) 37Alex Molnar, Philip Smith, and John Zahorik, "1998-99 Results of the Student Achievement Guarantee in Education (SAGE) Program Evaluation," Milwaukee, WI: Center for Education Research, Analysis, and Innovation, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, December 1999; Alex Molnar, Philip Smith, and John Zahorik, "1999-2000 Evaluation Results of the Student Achievement Guarantee in Education (SAGE) Program," Milwaukee, WI: Center for Education Research, Analysis, and Innovation, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, December 2000. 38"Burmaster: SAGE Bridges Achievement Gap," Education Forum, a publication of the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction, Jan. 25-Feb. 1, 2002, Vol. 5, No. 20. 39David Grissmer, Ann Flanagan, Jennifer Kawata and Stephanie Williamson, Improving Student Achievement: What State NAEP Test Scores Tell Us, (Santa Monica, CA: RAND, 2000), p.xxv. 40Cecilia Rouse, "Schools and Student Achievement: More Evidence from the Milwaukee Parental Choice Program," Federal Reserve Bank of New York Economic Policy Review,vol. 4, no. 1, March 1998, pp. 61-78. (Pupil-teacher ratios averaged 17.0:1 in the P-5 public schools and 15.3:1 in the voucher schools.) 41Alan B. Krueger and Diane M. Whitmore, "Would Smaller Classes Help Close the Black-White Achievement Gap?" Working Paper #451, Princeton University, Industrial Relations Section, March 2001; accessed May 2002 via: www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/working_papers.html 42Daniel P. Mayer, Paul E. Peterson, David E. Myers, Christina Clark Tuttle and William G. Howell, "School Choice in New York City After Three Years: An Evaluation of the School Choice Scholarships Program," Final Report, Mathematica Policy Research, Inc., February 19, 2002. Acknowledgments: Arohi Pathak, Research Assistant Dwight Holmes, Education Policy Manager Elliot Mincberg, Vice President & Director of Education Policy9
posted on July 2, 2002 12:49:23 PM new
gravid - I really can't answer for the Amish. I am not Amish, although from what I've read about their people I have a lot of respect for many of their ways.
But I do think that sometimes people who have never attended a 'religious' school think things go on there that don't.
I can only share my life experiences, and those of our friends and neighbors who sent their children to religious schools...not for the religion, but for the education. I went to a catholic school until 5th grade. [A hundred years ago ] The only religious training that went on was a 1 hour catechism once a week. Now that more non-catholics attend catholic schools, I believe they can choose not to attend catechism...but I can't swear to that. Other than that they're taught readin', writin' and arithmetic.
My godson [I am not catholic] and his sister attended catholic school and by the time they were in 2nd grade, one could easily notice how much more advanced they were from the public school children. Is this family catholic? The father is catholic, the mother is Greek Orthodox..the children were sent to a catholic school for because of the superior education they would receive there. The family only goes to church maybe three times a year. What I'm trying to say is they aren't religious fanatics. Both their children attended catholic schools through high school. Then my godson went on to a catholic college in PA.
Our first son [now almost 33] went to a Luthern grade school his first three years. There he got the best start in school a child could receive. They didn't ask the parents or the children to do anything they felt uncomfortable with. But they sure as heck gave him a better education that our local public school would have. How do I know that? Because we sent our son to public school [this was in 1973] and his first week he had his snack money stolen from him twice. My husband and I decided he was not going to be open to learning in this 'rough' environment so we pulled him out and have never regretted doing so. Once we could afford to move to a different area, our sons attended public schools.
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