posted on July 2, 2002 12:53:47 PM new
I believe they would say that (whoever 'they' were ) is because in Catholic H.S. 'back in the day' (as my kids say) required Latin be taken in High School.
OT When my kids were in elementary PUBLIC school back in the 80's, their school was 'choosen' for a grading expierment.
The idea was to never leave a child behind. NOT the way its said today...What they wanted was never to let 'Little Johnny' have low self esteeem when he would receive a D in class, so they got rid of the A, B, C, D and F grading system. I hated it. And it didn't last long.
My daughter was on honor roll, first thing they did was get rid of that.
If one child didn't understand the work in one area, the whole class stopped, until that child got it. No one was given an 'A' and no one was given an 'F' No child failed, and was never held back a grade in school.
I thought it was the most insane thing they could think up. They did eventually drop it, when enough parents and teachers complained.
Learning is work, and to receive an A and pass is an acheivement and yes, a reward for their work.
posted on July 2, 2002 01:02:33 PM new
"My husband and I decided he was not going to be open to learning in this 'rough' environment so we pulled him out and have never regretted doing so. Once we could afford to move to a different area, our sons attended public schools."
Well Linda the reason this "rough" environment existed is because the public schools can not exclude the "rough" students from attending the public school. The only way to exclude the "rough" students is to live where the "rough" students can not afford to live, which is why suburban and private schools have much better results.
The only reason a private school doesn't have these rough and disruptive students is because they can exclude them. It has nothing to do with the quality of the teachers, administration, or cirriculum.
If the "problems" of inner city schools were allowed to move into the private or suburban schools, the results would be the same as the inner city public schools.
The next issue to come out of the voucher program will be complaints of students being rejected/expelled from the private schools. Especially when the parents find out that due process and equal protections safe guards do not exist at private schools.
The private schools will screen the students to get the lowest maintanance/cost students with the best learning potential. The problem/disabled students will by and large remain in the public schools.
Vouchers will not solve the problem, it will just create another layer of separation for the problems.
Fiscal management
Public schools are subject to open meetings requirements, have budgets that are subject to public scrutiny and criticism, and are subject to audits. None of these accountability measures apply to private schools. This lack of oversight has led to fiscal mismanagement of public funds by voucher programs in Cleveland and Milwaukee. In Florida, the Department of Law Enforcement is investigating allegations of misconduct associated with several voucher schools, although the Department of Education has no oversight into these charges.
One government function is education, which is administered through the public school system by the department of education. The states, therefore, have primary responsibility for the maintenance and operation of public schools. The Federal Government also has an interest in education. The National Institute of Education was created to improve education in the United States.
Each state is required by its state constitution to provide a school system whereby children may receive an education. State legislatures exercise power over schools in any manner consistent with the state's constitution. Many state legislatures delegate power over the school system to a state board of education.
Here's the list if you want to check your state:Link
LOL at some of the states *regulation*.
[quote]The Alabama state legislature is prohibited from taxing school property, real or personal. Alabama Constitution, Article 4, Section 91.[/quote]
[quote]Registration/Licensing/Accreditation: All private schools, except church schools, must register annually on or before October 10 with the Alabama Department of Education and report on the number of students and instructors, enrollment, attendance, course of study, length of term, cost of tuition, funds, value of property, and the general condition of the school. Ala. Code § 16-1-11. The state superintendent of education furnishes the necessary forms for reporting. Ala. Code § 16-4-16.
"Church schools" are defined as schools offering "instruction in grades K-12, or any combination thereof including the kindergarten, elementary, or secondary level and are operated as a ministry of a local church, group of churches, denomination, and/or association of churches on a nonprofit basis which do not receive any state or federal funding." Ala. Code 16-28-1.[/quote]
Not too much about curriculum in the ones I looked at.
I hear a giant sucking noise....
Where is the accountability? You have the right to an informed opinion -Harlan Ellison
posted on July 2, 2002 01:14:09 PM new
snowyegret - Did you read where I wrote I don't have all the answers?
The different voucher systems that are being studied around our country all seem to be a little different in application. But the results are all looking very positive. Some of these are religious schools, some are not. Only more time will show the facts.
Linda, how will vouchers that support mainly religious schools, but do not pay a large portion of the tuition help the kids in Camden, NJ or any other blighted urban area?
I haven't read anywhere that says religious schools are the only ones the children can attend. Some of the suggestions are that the vouchers be only used for parents to send their children to another public school that is showing greater success. The voucher systems that are being studied now, is giving the parents the choice of sending their child to pubic, private or religious.
Those parents cannot pay the rest of the tuition. The feds should pick up the rest of the tab? Wouldn't that be <gasp> entitlements? In this case I believe the USA owes every child an education. The fact that some are not even able to read when they graduate high school [if they even get that far] just cannot contineu. I believe they deserve this 'entitlement' as you call it. If the public schools can't do the job then we need changes made.
When President Bush tried to 'award' schools who's test scores improved you all had a hissy fit about that too. And that didn't involve any religion. It sometimes appears to me that the democrats just want to keep throwing more and more tax dollars after a system that if failing. Make the schools responsible for their failures...meanwhile let the kids at least learn how to read. In a way their parents choose for them.
You didn't address my issues with my tax dollars going to a church which tries to convert, by overt and deceptive means, my coreligionists. It is spiritual genocide, and for tax dollars to go to that is not what our Founding Fathers intended. Sorry....kind of hard to answer so many questions at once. I'm saying let the individual parents decide. But I always love how each side of any issue always is so sure of what our founding fathers meant.
posted on July 2, 2002 01:37:07 PM new
snowyegret - Yes....between my spelling and typing skills...
All I can say is that you all have certainly made your case, as I have tried to the best of my ability to make mine.
Maybe you all should have been arguing the case against vouchers being used where they currently are....maybe then the US Supreme Court would have decided differently.
posted on July 2, 2002 01:55:36 PM new
We could argue public vs. private schools, vouchers vs. no vouchers ad infinitum. IMO until problems of poverty, drug abuse, family violence,parental neglect, physical disabilities, etc. are addressed, we're going to continue in this rut.
posted on July 2, 2002 02:56:32 PM new
My personal feeling is that this is simply another tactic by Fundies to brainwash your kids. After decades of trying to invade our public schools with their religious zeal (and interpretations) and being more successful than you think they would be, their goal has been nothing short of Fundamentalist Christian teachings as a part of the public school curriculum and the removal of all educational materials that they deem "inappropriate" to teach people; such as human biology and sexuality, Evolution, and Geology, etc.
What this Voucher program really does is it gives parents who want their kids to have a religious education, but cannot pay for one, get the taxpayer to do it instead. In fact, the idea is so good, that if they can get parents who are unaware of their schemes to enroll their kids in the hopes of their kids getting a better education - then that's just gravy! They'll grow bigger and more powerful with missing educational funds that will be diverted to proselytizing the world. how nice of them to do that ~ taking your taxpayer dollars to do just that!
The far agenda of these Fundies is that if a school is operating badly, then instead of fixing the problem, they remove the kids and the funds. As they do so, less funds are available to pay teachers, who go away to find better paying work, janitors, administrators, etc. In the end, the school system will collapse if they work hard enough at it and then, all children will be brought up in religious schools - Fundie Schools.
But wait! Isn't there a plethora of diverse religions? That's the next battlefield - making sure that other religions cannot qualify for these kids and funds will not go to them - only to Fundie Schools. Or haven't you been paying attention?
Yep! I see it all as a Fundie Plot. It was the Fundies who started the big push with this idea of "improving" public schools through school Vouchers; it's the Fundies who are always harassing our school boards and PTA meetings, demanding that their curriculum be taught over everyone else's. Just as this parent does not want that little girl in school to hear the Pledge of Allegiance with the words "Under God" all the time, these Fundies do not want Evolution taught to their kids in defiance of their religious beliefs -- and they don't want yours too either!
posted on July 2, 2002 03:01:21 PM new
I honestly and truely look forward to death. I hope there is an afterlife. It must be great comedy to see the faces of these suiside bombers, fundimentalists, and other religious wackos when they meet their maker, and find that she is not pleased (by the way, Her name is Nancy, and she makes a killer Carrot Cake). Personally, I think the bombers are going to be sent to the hell of being one of someone else's 76 virgins. I think Jerry F. will be made into an intelligent lipstick to be worn by Larry when he is kissing Fred (or would it be LA LA when he is kissing PO).
posted on July 2, 2002 04:55:40 PM new"Personally, I think the bombers are going to be sent to the hell of being one of someone else's 76 virgins."
LOL! Dejapooh!
I have a lot of muslim friends who are just as angry as we are at those bombers and they rail at them to go to Hell for what they are doing. I'll have to pass this idea along to them -- it's sure to get a chuckle. Maybe it'll somehow make its way throuhgout their culture - as any really good joke or saying eventually does and it will do some good in the right places.
posted on July 3, 2002 08:31:12 AM new
snowyegret - I do understand your strong opposition to the voucher system. I'm not trying to change your mind in any way, I read something this morning that I wanted to share with you [and others].
You had asked something along the line of what good would these vouchers to poor children who still couldn't pay the rest of the tuition necessary.
What's striking is the number of options available to Cleveland parents. They can simply keep their children in public schools. Or they can use the voucher to pay for additional tutoring. Or they can enroll their children in a charter school, a magnet school, a nonreligious private school or a religious school.
And directed to anyone interested, this article points out some other [currently used] 'voucher' systems that also use tax dollars that go to/for religious institutions.
East Palo Alto, which until recently held the title of "murder capital, USA" graduated just one third of its senior class. The district may be taken over by the state because of controversies with the special ed. program. Administrators are constantly in the news for taking trips with the district's money, questionable personal financial dealings, and various unsavory practices.
It's all pretty sickening, considering how EPA is such a poor neighborhood, yet right next door in Palo Alto you've got Stanford University and all the rich faculty's kids.
Since parents in the EPA district largely speak English as a second language (used to be black, now hispanic), there is really no one to oversee the school district administration.
posted on July 3, 2002 09:10:52 AM new
As to the bomber for all eternity the 76 will remain virgins. No Achmed I've told you a million times NO!!! Jamal you can't have any either!!!!!
As to God, please see the Gods Must Be Crazy.
One Nation under a coke bottle.....blah blah blah
As to vouchers I'll go to Watsamatta U with Bullwinkle
posted on July 3, 2002 10:28:14 AM new
Hey Twinsoft those are our Palestinians
personally Its way past the point where we should have called out the tanks
posted on July 3, 2002 10:55:42 AM new
Senator Byrd presided over a group of senators opposed to the removal of "under God" from the pledge.
After the Pledge, they quickly went to work on the defense authorization bill. In God we trust, but the Pentagon is a nice backup. As Tom Lehrer once sang, "The Lord's our shepherd, says the psalm, but just in case, we better get a bomb."
posted on July 3, 2002 11:20:36 AM new
Well since adding "under God" to the pledge was instrumental in defeating the threat of communism, perhaps we should just go ahead and substitute "corporation" for "nation" and that will allow our current government to act with even less impunity in saving us all. After all a born again government that frees us from the original sins of the Constitution seems to be our only path to salvation in these troubling times.
"The words "under God" were introduced 48 years ago purely to distinguish America from a godless antagonist. America's enemy now is so far from atheism that its agents fly planeloads of innocents into buildings in the apparent belief that this will gain them entry to heaven. If the rationale for inserting God was to differentiate America from atheists, then the words should logically be deleted to distinguish the nation from enemies who promote a holy war: a concept in which we like to think Bush doesn't believe."
posted on July 5, 2002 07:20:04 PM new
I might point out that that enemy North Korea is still there, still communist still murdering scum that should be wiped from the face of the earth.
posted on July 5, 2002 09:55:49 PM new
You forget, AN, that Communist countries have never had the chance to become true Communist. The Communist Manifesto states that after the revolution a central government must be established until true communism can be set in place. The Dictatorship of the Proletariat it is called. After that, the government is useless and the people are self-governing. That's the theory at any rate. Unfortunately, once a government is in place and a person is in change, it just goes back to being a never-ending tyranny. That's also because the outside world is hostile to communistic regimes. In theory, if all nations were communistic, then one-by-one, the governments would dissolve and the Worker's Paradise would appear.
BTW: I heard on TV that Bush was suggestion that the words "Under God" be replaced with the words "Victory Hail!" What do you think?
posted on July 6, 2002 12:28:01 PM new
posted on July 5, 2002 09:55:49 PM
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You forget, AN, that Communist countries have never had the chance to become true Communist
posted on July 6, 2002 12:49:18 PM new
In theory Bor is right. I think that the theory also opines that a true communist state could only actually arise from a capitalist society.
The "communist" regimes that have existed were "communist" in name only. There has never been a true communist state as outlined by Marx and Lenin.
posted on July 6, 2002 01:19:08 PM new
When you have a group big enough to form a society in which all are interested in working hard for no personal advantage and seek the advantage of the other call me up and we will decide if we should call them communists or christians - but we won't call them human.
posted on July 6, 2002 01:24:48 PM new"From each according to his or her ability and to each according to his or her need."
What a beautiful idea that is! If the Soviet Union had not insisted on causing revolution in surrounding countries and throughout the world, it might not have made the Western Capitalist countries so much. Had the Western Capitalists not done everything that they possibly could to destroy the Soviet Union, short of all-out warfare AND the Soviet Union not tried to make every other country rebel, we might have seen a true Communist Country come about! I think that what made the Soviet Union so unworkable and unwieldy a state is that it never truly became a capitalist society first; at least, not like in a modern industrial sense. If Capitalism had been allowed to go on there for say, another hundred years, the infrastructure would have been in place and with modernization, it would have been ready for a communist revolution. Instead, when the revolution did take place, 99% of the country never even had electricity, and about the same with running water. It should have just concentrated upon itself instead of world conquest and domination and it might have been able to modernize and eventually reach that Utopian existence. Who knows how it might have ended up?
posted on July 6, 2002 04:27:13 PM new
"When you have a group big enough to form a society in which all are interested in working hard for no personal advantage and seek the advantage of the other call me up and we will decide if we should call them communists or christians - but we won't call them human."
posted on July 6, 2002 06:32:33 PM new
Never been A Communist state ?
You cant possibly believe this bs.
There were and are Commie states.
They do not work because they are founded on a lie.
Make that the Big Lie!
Soviet Russia had every chance in the world to become the state she was supposed to be that is the entire point of opposing the current mental stagnation coming out of washington dc.
Communisism is the height of irresponsibility.
THOSE PEOPLE ARE STARVING IN NORTH KOREA, And being tought that its our fault.
there seems to be some idiotic pragmatism that manifests itself in individuals who normally think clearly raving about the wonders of the true communist state. This is imbecility at its best. It is an insult to the memory of the lone chinese man standing unarmed before a row of tanks.
How dare you blame the failure of marxism at the feet of those powers who upheld freedom.
The fact is is that the United States propped up this pack of evil thugs with loans moneis grain and when the chips were down American military might.
what the reds were and are are mentally diseased dishonest thieving crimminal murdering scum. These basterds tortured our boys in Korea and Vietnam and would do it again in a heart beat.
posted on July 6, 2002 10:24:06 PM new"Communisism is the height of irresponsibility."
Well, your mind is set, apparently. For you, the real and true Communist State did come into existence and proved to be nothing more than sadistic torture for everyone who lived under it. That you explained how you think of the Russian people, no doubt explains why so many of them still prefer communism to capitalism. That true communism was supposed to eliminate greed and selfishness and was ruined because of greed and selfishness does not devalue the ideals of communism.
Would you be surprised to learn that Karl Marx's version of Communism was based upon early Christians?
Would you also be surprised to learn that Karl Marx was able ot write his book Das Kapital because of a grant given to him by a Major Capitalist?
"No wonder your so soft on Clinton."
Let's turn that the other way around. I'm not hard on Clinton because of several things: 1) The Republicans and Right-Wing groups created and put out so many lies and baloney about Clinton "wrongdoing" that we will never know the true score. Likely, Clinton didn't steal as much more or lie as much more or was more corrupt as any other previous President, and likely much less than a few late Republican ones. While that doesn't excuse him for forsaking the People's Agenda in favor of multi-national corporatism, you only have to compare the threat that Clinton was with the current one and his father, who was the previous one to Clinton.
Now, you're also making the same mistake that others have when thinking that simply discussing the issue of a topic means that you are endorsing it. For instance, because we have on at least one occasion, discussed a Revolution and how it might work, does not mean that anyone endorses that idea. It means that we are simply discussing the idea for the sake of education and discussion itself. That we talk about the theory of Communism in its pure form and mention that the so-called communist republics never were communist does not mean that anyone here is endorsing it. And one can admire Utopian Ideals, even if such ideals are not truly attainable on this earth, there simply is no good reason to throw it all out. Cooperation instead of dog-eat-dog, kill-or-be-killed capitalistic competition has its place whether you like it or not.
posted on July 7, 2002 01:45:05 PM new
I did not disparage the Russian People.
The fact is that when King George wanted merc troops he went to the Quen of Russia first.
She not only refused him but also lectured him on how to treat one's subjects.
She also sugested war with Russia if to many troops were stationed in the new world.
after the trade tower bombing Russia let us use her bases.
I don't have anything against Russians I'll Czech the record on the reds.
as far as marx I don't give a damm about Christians.I was Christian once and I got Pennicillian and It cured me.
My Cousin fought the commies in Vietnam. He started taking risks because at home here his finace was murdered. He stayed behind with the wounded while others went to get help. After he was dead the reds cut off his head and dropped it up on his rifle with other damage so our other soldiers would find it.
I am proud of having used my bare hands to have stopped the budding carerrs of many stinking reds.
posted on July 7, 2002 01:49:29 PM new
andf then we have Lenin a blood sucker.probably the worlds closest thing to a living vampire.
He was visiting a factory after the revolution had begun and a young girl shot him in the face with a 22 cal pistol. she lived and got away. The wound would not heal as he had contracted syphillis years before
they wound take the white army prisoners in each day and literally transfuse them to death to keep this mnonster alive. Thats why his rotting corpse is so well preserved to this day. They ought to bury the morbid son of a ditch in draculas grave.
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) is because in Catholic H.S. 'back in the day' 
When my kids were in elementary PUBLIC school back in the 80's, their school was 'choosen' for a grading expierment.
.