posted on May 3, 2001 07:15:28 AM new
Damon has often said that the problem with these boards is that you only get one side of the story. I have therefore decided to try something unique. If I see a post that seems truly outrageous, I will contact the poster and ask if they want me to "feature" it on my site. I will then invite Damon to investigate and present Paypal's side of the issue. I hope that we will then get a balanced presentation of what happened, why it happened and how it was resolved.
A poster has complained that after many transactions involving thousands of dollars, with no charge backs or complaints, Paypal restricted his account containing $1300 without notice. The only explanation was "prob fraud." He has sent his bank account, cancelled checks, driver's license, etc as requested, only to be told that the person in charge of restrictions has no telephone. He has agreed to have his story posted on my site, with his email id, (so those of you who think this is made up can contact him). I have invited Damon to respond. You can follow the story as it unfolds (assuming that something happens) at my paypal page.
posted on May 3, 2001 08:35:07 AM new
posted on May 2, 2001 07:18:34 PM by packer
Remember...I work for the post office and there rate for scanning on a daily basis is about 93%(that is just for our area) the other 7% DOES NOT get scanned.
posted on May 2, 2001 08:53:37 PM by paypaldamon
The easy answer is---any method of tracking that can be done on-line is acceptable for Paypal. As far as the disclaimer for scanning, I can throw that into future responses, but I was kind of hoping that many people would understand that on their own.
Based on the response in the above thread, PayPal appears to prefer a sort of "figure it out yourself" approach when it comes to customer service. One might wonder why a customer service representative would "hope that people would understand on their own" rather than provide clear-cut guidance when customers have questions regarding policies and procedures.
posted on May 3, 2001 09:02:47 AM new
Yisgood's "challenge" is based on statements from a poster who says "Paypal needs to die".
We do not know what happened in this story, but we do know it didn't happen as innocently as described. We may never know exactly what happened, because despite a public "challenge", Paypal is not at liberty to discuss details of such cases. So the challenge is phoney.
[ edited by roofguy on May 3, 2001 09:07 AM ]
I can't go into account specifics on the boards with you. This has been mentioned in the past and there are various legal reasons for it.
Hi mrpotatohead,
Without sounding a little bid confused... Why would I make comments about the scanning ability of the post office and why would I comment on the scanning aspect of it? The ability of the post office, or any carrier, to scan packages is completely out of my hands and that of PayPal.
I think many users would understand that they are separate organizations.
All I can state is what is accepted, not what happens if the post office doesn't scan it. That is an issue between the USPS/carrier and the individual.
posted on May 3, 2001 12:33:51 PM newI think many users would understand that they are separate organizations.
I would agree with that. Actually, I'd go farther and say nearly all users, but that's just me.
All I can state is what is accepted, not what happens if the post office doesn't scan it.
Say what?!? You can't explain to your customers the implications of not having the item scanned, as they relate to your "protection policy"? Why not? Are you trying to keep it a secret?
That is an issue [scanning an item]between the USPS/carrier and the individual.
Until they wish to avail themselves of your "protection policy"- at that point, I believe PayPal will most likely take an active interest.
posted on May 3, 2001 01:29:43 PM new
for all you (roofguy) guys that think folks make up stories. Just the facts. I posted this three days ago. Im available to talk to anyone on the phone if you think its bogus. Read. This isnt quite as funy as reading old men whining when pay pal seizes your money, wont talk to you, and sends cancellation notices to your payees. READ gentlemen.posted on May 1, 2001 10:59:16 AM
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I can tell you fact mr paypaldamon, chargebacks are not the only problems with paypal and their nazi tactics. Fact is playing GOD seems to be a paypal mentality not confined to chargebacks. My acount with paypal [email protected] paid for hundreds of transactions over many months....99 percent cash transfers totalling thousands and thousands of dollars, NO CREDIT CARDS. Then one day last month pay pal SEIZED over $1300 dollars they had just withdrawn from our checking account, sent my payees cancelllation notices and will not return emails or phone calls about exactly what the hell is going on. Evasive, vague, and playing stupid seems to be the order of the day. ANd yeah, I ASLO heard the people that know why it was frozen are in another building and cant be contacted. WHAT?? All I get is a read the form letter and comply when I call. ALL YOU CROOKS want is my bank account statement and my drivers license number to verify who I am after months and hundreds of completed trasactions using the same account, in the same way, in similar amounts....and I say again...with no problems. This is unacceptable and a horrible way to reward a long standing customer. You send me YOUR bank account statement MR PAYPALDAMON. Thats not much to ask.....?? Of course you can trust me to keep it all in confidence......You can call clubmans statements about paypal possibly illegal, but their seems to be a pattern of pay pal being totally unresponsive to CUSTOMERS. He's not the only one posting. I feel really good about being a premier (PAYING)customer since day one when I could have rode free for a long time.... SEIZING assets of long term customers for vague bogus "suspicious activities" is what is illegal. I faxed information to them and have called them. I cant wait to join or instigate a big class action lawsuit that destroys pay pal with the same cavalier attitude that they take destroying people that are their CUSTOMERS. They take an awfully cavalier approach to screwing with folks reputations. As you know, three NPBS on ebay gets you booted. PAY PAL has been holding money for weeks now that was intended and sent to pay EBAY sellers. Guess what happens now mr paypaldamon? Damage hads been done....know what that means? My lawyer does. Holding folks money and ruining their reputation on ebay is not quite the thing a long time, big no-troublemaker user should expect. Its wrong, they are not sorry, and Pay pal needs to die. I have gotten no response from them for weeks for any email I send them WHILE they continue to hold my money illegally while asking for information they have no business of asking for. It may seem a joke to you and them, but screwing with folks lives is SERIOUS business. Funny how these seizures always come with no warning AFTER paypal gets some money in the account that is NOT thiers. Its just as easy to freeze or warn BEFORE the money gets seized. Pay pal using extortionist tactics is NOT right. Im sorry. Long term customers deserve better. Remember, theres no charge backs even in this. ALL CASH on a customer you have made money off of for hundreds of PAYS. No one there even WILL ANSWER ANY questions of why, and no one can put me through to the people that know. POOR. POOR. and criminal too, in my humble little opinion. Wonder what a jury would think? That just the facts. [email protected]
posted on May 3, 2001 01:36:10 PM new
This is what I sent them today. Just more waste of my time. You guys need to let this happen TO YOU. I welcome any public debate about SPECIFICS fo my acount mr paypaldamon. How you guys can treat a long term customer in this way and just ignore them after moeny seizure is unbelievable I admit. Better read around. Im not the only one. These forums are kind of hard to find. But it will get easier. I can tell you this. My money is gone...and NO one is talking about why. Heres my latest message. Subj: No response from you criminals for weeks. ALL CASH $1300
Date: 5/3/2001 1:50:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Takemyexwife
To: [email protected]
I dont expect any answer from this, but lets waste some more of my time. I faxed (under protest) you crooks my DL, bank account statement AND cancelled cks front and back showing me signing them. After hundreds of cash transactions with you mobsters, (not cc's) its far more than I should have to be expected to do, and is no less than extortion. Youve now held 1300+ dollars of our money for over three weeks without even a response to the last 10 calls or emails in over 2 weeks. You are nothing short of criminals. Ive now posted on AW public forums, contacted several folks working up class lawsuits against you and have talked to my lawyer. Ive complained officially to your BBB and my congressman. Im sure youre busy, and Ive got better things to do. (youre ruining my quality of life) But, rest assured, Im freeing up more time to help you crooks get your just deserts. NO way to treat any long time paying customer. At this point you sending my money back to me would be a real bargain for you guys. Write it down. Carey
posted on May 3, 2001 01:59:10 PM new
Theres plenty more of these pages of ACTUAL transactions by me. LOTS MORE. Aint too funy when you do all these cash transfers MAKING GOD OLD PAY PAL money and all of a sudden you get your money seized. By the way, wonder why the BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU recommends agaist using them. Guess their making up bogus stuff too. Im not somebody buying baseball cards once a month. IM a long term GOOD customer. AND a busy person as well. Ive got better things to do than slander myself against a multimillioon dollar company. When I say Paypal die, its to show the level of my frustration at the end of a lot of wasted time where no one seems to think stealing folks money is a problem. BOGUS hell, people got better things to do than hassle paypal. This aint someone whining about a chargeback. My money is in paypals hands, I put it there because I thought I could trust them. YOU tell me why pay pal cant delegate authority to fix these problems with one call, even if it means saying you lose sucker. Hiding and dodging and ducking behind even supervisors that know nothing and have no authority to HANDLE folks problems is a totally ridiculous way to waste customers AND their employees time.
posted on May 3, 2001 02:42:30 PM new
Roofguy: When you go to work in the morning, stop by paypaldamon's desk on the way to your office and see if he's working on my account, will ya? If you find out, let me know, email me your phone number and extention. It'll probably be late tomorrow or sat before I can find more time for this nonsense, but if you give me your number I will call. I wont even run up Paypals 800 number while I talk to you, its a drop in the bucket compared to the work time Ive lost screwing around with this. Heck, Im mad, but not at you, anyone like you that makes statements about regular folks he knows zilch about will always be "my PAL", even if he basically called me a liar. Wear a light colored hat when you're on that roof, the sun beating down can really overheat an uncovered head. HA HA. Cheers "Pal". Carey ([email protected])
posted on May 3, 2001 02:44:51 PM new
seemomgocrazy,
I have deleted your post containing I.D.'s as it is against the CG's to post such information about other people.
I also want you to realize that any spokesperson for Paypal deserves the same respect as any other AuctionWatch.com member or staff person. Please keep that in mind as you post and consider this fair warning that your posting privileges could be in jeopardy should you continue to post in this vein.
posted on May 3, 2001 03:23:18 PM new
Yisgood, great idea. Even if PayPal does not respond, it would be great to chronicle the progression of some of these cases. Such press can only encourage PayPal to improve. Damon, you have sometimes gone into account specifics when it served PayPal to do so, but I understand your general position.
I am one of only two people you will see post in the forums for PayPal (me and Joann). No other employee in the company is allowed to post in the forums without the express consent of the Communications department. Employees that participate in forums, even as customers, can be disciplined for their actions. We also have to identify ourselves as PayPal employees.
roofguy,uaru, and many of the other posters in the forums are just satisfied users that have never had an issue with the service. Actually, out of a user base of 7 million+, you would find a pretty healthy number of users that have not had a problem with the service.
posted on May 3, 2001 03:42:20 PM new
Damon, not withstanding your policy, you have no way of knowing whether or not a particular user has a connection with your company.
Understood. I also wanted to make sure that company policy is perfectly clear on this matter and we do it so we have a clear, consistent message from an authorized person (discussions from delivery confirmation not withstanding.
posted on May 3, 2001 04:26:02 PM new
Damon, Ive been a premier member since day one when I could have rode free. I always said I dont expect anyone to do service for me for free. (including AW) I proudly pay aw for their services and you havnt seen one iota of me complaining you overcharge etc. A LOT of folks depend on me to help them with their computer problems, etc. I have personally signed up my girlfreind and MANY other people to YOUR service. (that makes me your freind, Damon) Right down to the holding the credit card and entering their information for them. I have literally pages after pages of no problem transactions with you. (other than you having my money for sometimes several days after the ACH before I can spend it, which honestly has improved) I am a good, no hassle high volume buyer who basically is probably gonna be bounced off buying on ebay as a result of YOUR actions. Basically you have contributed to ruining me making you money. No warning was given, how do I plan for this kind of thing? I found out when sellers started screaming about cancellation notices "I" sent them and CALLED me at home. How do you think this makes me feel? Ive neglected things I need to do, and spent money "on you" that was needed elsewhere, as a result of paypal's actions. SITES dont pull negs for slow paying either, thanks. The form letter I got basically is a generic one that tells me steps to verify the bank account. Since this was done last year, well....and to send in my DL and bank account statement. No personalization whatsoever. A generic vague, "or else" dear john letter to a GOOD customer. Your folks at the switchboard verify enough information before theyll just talk to me that the problem should have ended there. Bank name, account, address, you name it. Compounding your damage to me, Ive have lost sleep over this, work time, days off, money spent on consultations, and it still seems unreal. ALL avoidable. How can any company be so unresponsive to fixing problems that affect people so deeply? Hmmm, logic would figure, make a call, they check my account and say sorry. I call my sellers and say sorry. Done, though it still looks bad on me. Logic would say supervisors that answer the phone should have the authority, training, and intelligence to handle this problem, get it out of your hair and mine in ONE call. No matter, asking for my bank account statement is out of line. Asking for a cancelled check with my signature and drivers license MIGHT not be quite as outrageous. (I sent you some of those too since youve already raped me into submission anyway) If you give me the option of allowing you access to such priviledged information or being booted I would understand. My choice. I comply or walk away. Constantly changing the rules we have to play by with Paypal, with no option to comply or leave, and treating everyone as criminals while seizing their money seems weird to me. You can never get so hardened by crooks that you find it acceptable to mistreat folks so carelessly. Carey ([email protected])
Now that you know that Paypal Reps are easily identified on these boards, I will ask that you to stop with the innuendo that some AW users are Paypal employees and acting as shills.
No more. It is not fair to the membership that wishes to use these boards in a constructive manner.
posted on May 3, 2001 04:37:58 PM new
Damon, I respect your comment on roofguy, even though we dont know if he's a satisfied customer or not. If I was satisfied Id be at work or on the net, not looking for paypal threads. Awfully strong arguments for someone not really involved. Seems to be an obvious plant. (or stockholder?) Official or not. How can, or why would, a virtual stranger come in an write such opinions on things he has no personal knowledge or invlovement of? Just a thought. Thanks for your time....another day wasted. Carey
posted on May 3, 2001 09:51:09 PM newNow that you know that Paypal Reps are easily identified on these boards, I will ask that you to stop with the innuendo that some AW users are Paypal employees and acting as shills.
Joice, as I already stated, we know what PayPal states its policy is but as to what an individual employee of any company does is not something anyone knows.
I believe that almost every member would agree that Auction Watch has been an invaluable service for many Paypal customers. It allows people to vent about problems encountered with a seemingly unresponsive company and to see that they are not alone. It simplifies the response to inquiries from sellers when they ask, “Why don’t you take Paypal”.
I understand that AW has a relationship with Paypal. Many of the threads originate from Paypal employees clarifying their policies and promoting their service(s).
Your objection to innuendo and outright statements that Paypal groupies are company employees (shills) is understandable. It’s just that some people are just skeptical that everyday folks with no invested interest would spend so much time defending any company.
What I don't understand is the lack of objections to these same groupies when they imply that posters critical of Paypal are encountering difficulties stemming from their own nefarious business practices, or that they have their own “secret agenda”. I believe that the posters critical of Paypal, for the most part, have a clear agenda.
I guess all I am trying to say is this forum may work best if everyone treats everyone else fairly and is moderated impartially.
posted on May 4, 2001 07:21:25 AM new
The only way a whole account gets locked by Paypal is because there is some valid suspicion of the accountholder being a threat to Paypal.
Not everyone who looks suspicious is guilty of "nefarious business practices", but suspicious activity MUST be stopped cold, not after it is proven to be actual thievery.
When someone comes on here whining "Paypal locked my account and I didn't do anything", we KNOW that we haven't heard the whole story. Most of the time it turns out that Paypal is investigating an individual payment, and the account is not locked at all, but sometimes it's for real.
Does anyone think that Paypal just randomly locks accounts for no reason at all?
Does anyone think that the holders of locked accounts have no idea as to WHY their account got locked?
Maybe they didn't do anything wrong, but it would sure be more convincing if they included the rest of the story, which would boil down to "this looked suspicious but here's why it was normal in my case".
Without that, we're left knowing that the poster is only telling us part of the story, and we're left wondering why that might be if there is nothing to hide.
posted on May 4, 2001 07:49:33 AM new
Just to be perfectly clear:
-I am not a spokesperson for Paypal, not official, not unofficial, not even winked at.
-I am not an employee of Paypal.
-I do not know the details of any particular case being discussed here.
Beyond that, this discussion isn't about the actual people doing postings, it's about issues.
When the issue itself involves some behavior or knowledge of a poster, then such behavior or knowledge becomes relevant.
posted on May 4, 2001 09:33:38 AM new
Somebody still doesn't get it. Although the particular subject being discussed previously was delivery confirmation, the larger topic was the responsiveness of a company to questions asked by its customers, and that company's dedication (or lack thereof) to seeing that the answers provided were clear and unambiguous.
The fact that the same questions are asked over and over speaks for itself. A company truly interested in seeing that its customers have the information they are looking for would quickly realize that repeated requests for the same information are an indication that they have not provided the necessary information for their customers in a way that was readily accessable, and would take steps to remedy the situation.
When the customer service representative's response regarding user questions indicates that, rather than make the effort to clearly explain company policies so that there are no misunderstandings, they prefer to post the same statements repeatedly with the hope that users will "figure it out for themselves", it is hard to take seriously the idea that they are looking out for the customer's best interests.
If this were a company that ran an internet chat service or shareware download site, that attitude, although not particularly helpful, might not matter so much. When the company is one which is holding millions of dollars for millions of customers, the stakes are much higher, and a higher level of integrity should be expected. Through their business decisions, PayPal has made an effort to avoid the regulations that financial institutions such as banks are required to follow. From PayPal's TOS:
Not a Bank. You acknowledge that (i) the Service is not a banking service (ii) Service accounts are not insured by any government agency of any nation, (iii) the Service is not subject to banking regulations and (iv) PayPal will invest in liquid assets and that interest earned on those assets will be the property of PayPal.
Any business that holds money belonging to others, without offering insurance to protect those customers from loss of the money entrusted to them, has an obligation to be sure beyond any reasonable doubt that their customers are provided with a full, complete, accurate and unambiguous explanation of any of the company's policies or procedures about which they are asked. It all comes down to one word- trust. And you don't develop trust through evasiveness.
One more thing... There have been numerous posts made complimenting PayPal for having a representative available to post on these message boards, when many other companies do not. That would be a positive step, but it begs the question: Why is this necessary? Why should customers who have already contacted PayPal's customer service department in an effort to resolve a problem need to request further assistance on a message board? Only PayPal knows the answers to those questions. And what then, of all the people who are unaware of the existence of these message boards? Do they not deserve to have someone to turn to for help with a problem? At this time, the answer appears to be "No".
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