posted on August 31, 2002 07:33:09 PM new
Ahahahahahahahhahah!!!! How will they fill their time????
LEXINGTON, Kentucky (AP) -- The Kentucky Department of Corrections
has suspended formal satanic worship services at the Green River
Correctional Complex while officials work to shape a statewide policy on the
practice.
Inmates at Green River, a medium-security prison in Central City, had been allowed
to hold weekly satanic services this summer as part of the official religious services
calendar, said Lisa Carnahan, a Corrections spokeswoman.
"We honestly didn't know it was on the religious calendar," Carnahan said after the
Lexington Herald-Leader questioned the practice.
"We are researching it to see what we are required to
allow under the law. But we've found information
that indicates that satanic services could be a threat to
the institutions, so for now we won't aid or abet
satanic worship," she said.
Under federal law and U.S. Supreme Court decisions,
correctional institutions may not prohibit the exercise
of inmates' religious freedom, as long as the practice
of the recognized religion does not compromise the
safety of other inmates or the staff, said Joe Weedon, manager of government
affairs for the American Correctional Association.
Satanic services were suspended Thursday at Green River after the newspaper's
inquiry.
Inmates of at least two of the state's other 14 prisons practice Satanism on their
own, Carnahan said.
Carnahan said the state has not suspended Wiccan services, which also are held at
Green River and three other prisons. Wicca practices witchcraft but sees the divine
in every element of nature.
"We don't have any materials that indicate that Wicca compromises the safety of
the institutions," Carnahan said.
The issue arose at Green River a few months ago when one inmate sought
permission to practice Satanism.
Warden Patti Webb decided it was safer to give inmates a specific time and place to
worship, where they would be monitored, rather than letting them practice among
themselves on the prison yard, Carnahan said.
Only two inmates showed up last week for the satanic services at Green River,
Carnahan said.
Kentucky officials have learned that policies in other states vary. For instance,
prison officials in Texas, where 150 inmates say they follow Satanism, prohibit the
services.
posted on August 31, 2002 08:59:42 PM new"We've looked at the satanic bible and are convinced that what it advocates would put our prisons at risk, safety-wise," said Donald Kaspar, chaplain for the Texas system. "One of their tenets is revenge -- if somebody hurts you, hurt them back."
That's just their interpretation of the Biblical "eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". Death penalty advocates and warriors such as George Bush think like that.
This is clearly a case of discrimination against the inmate's religious beliefs!
posted on August 31, 2002 11:14:38 PM new
The case that the Bible itself promotes violence, murder, and mayhem is easy to make. Satanism is a rejection of Christianity, for without Chrisitanity, there would be no satanists practicing satanism. We were supposedly given "free will" by God and if these inmates want to go this route and do it willingly without violence, murder, or mayhem, then I can see no reason to stop it. Other Christian's viewpoints may differ than mine, pointing out that satanism takes people away from the True Faith. But if that Faith is so True, then how can anyone once knowing it, be driven from it? By refusing to allow people to make a choice of their own minds, are we not depriving people of their "free will" that God intended us to have? Does God require us to remove a person's Free Will in order to protect His monopoly? Do we have the right to keep people from making their own choices? Are we that arrogrant?
posted on September 1, 2002 10:30:36 AM new
Maybe Satan worshipping is a serious matter for these guys, but I highly doubt it. Satanism is just a good excuse for justifying long term crappy behaviour imho. Do you think they lay in their cells thinking about how wonderful their lives have become since getting to know Satan? I think it's a novelty. Inmates don't have much else to do than press for 'rights'.
What the jail should do, is serve these guys bowls of goat eyes for dinner to see if they're serious or not.
posted on September 1, 2002 11:09:38 AM new
Goat's eyes and testicles are concidered a delicacy in many countires in the old world and the middle, central, far east and the lnads north of central asia and north of China.
KD, I do not know much about satanism, other than I want nothing to do with it. Where did you get the information that goat's eyes are a delicacy for followers of satanism? What background or culture does it tie into, then one might imagine?
posted on September 1, 2002 11:24:33 AM new
Whether inmates are seriuos or sincere in their religious beliefs is not for the state to decide, nor should the state decide what beliefs are valid or "safe". If there are certain activities within the worship that may compromise security of the prison, then those activities may be discontinued, but a ban on undisruptive worship because of beliefs and tenets as interpreted by the state as being "unsafe" shouldn't pass Constitutional scrutiny.Mainstream religions have as much to lose by this state action than the fringe religions.
These actions are tantamount to the state determining which beliefs (not actions but beliefs) are valued by and permitted by the state and which are not.
Catholics and others practice ritual cannabilism in the communion. Shouldn't the state not allow these religions to be practiced in prison ?
posted on September 1, 2002 01:01:06 PM new
Satanism a religion??? Hahaha! Isn't it just a stupid fad that's disguised as a religion? Why shouldn't jailed child molesters, terrorists, etc., have the same freedoms calling their club a religion? These guys are in prison as punishment and to (hopefully) learn from their mistakes. A prison that condones a 'religion' that promotes hatred & evil is backwards. I don't need to be in a church to talk to God, so why can't they just do all their praising or whatever in their heads like most people?
As far as the goat eyes (and other parts...yuck!) Borillar, it was meant to be funny because I just can't take these groups seriously. It's the type of stuff you see in b-movies... the bat's blood, newt's eyes, etc. I never thought of them as being edible in real life!
posted on September 1, 2002 01:15:35 PM newCatholics and others practice ritual cannabilism in the communion.
What a crock of $hit! You obviously don't have a clue about what you are talking about. Most certainly you have no knowledge about Catholicism.
Transubstantiation is not synonymous with cannibalism.
posted on September 1, 2002 02:07:26 PM new
OK, let's split hairs here. Transubstanciation is the >>LITTERAL<< transmution of bread into human flesh and wine into human blood -- human flesh and blood, albeit from a god. It is the eating of Jesus' Real Flesh on earth and drinking His Real Blood. Catholics like to feel as though eating a part of God is an act higher up in morality than the eating of one's own dead. I imagine that it is all in your point of view, but really, eating your god or your brother is still cannibalism to me.
ed. because I can't spell today
[ edited by Borillar on Sep 1, 2002 02:06 PM ]
posted on September 1, 2002 02:15:35 PM new
KD, like I said, I don't know that much about satanism. I recall hearing that Luciferism is about the rejection of God as being incompetant and replacing Him with someone else who might do a better job of it -- namely, Lucifer aka Satan aka The Devil, etc. Luciferians believe that by supporting God's Enemy, they are correcting the real and perveived wrongs done to them at the hands of mainstream organized religion. I've heard for years about satanists being cannibals, that they eat babies. I remember reading history books that described this behavior about the Jews from Christians throughout history and, of course, this accusation was made by Nero against the Christian community in Rome. Who knows how old such accusations of slander this claim really is and is there any truth to it? You hear stories, but never from acutal police investigations, but rumors of acutal police investigations -- you know what I mean?
posted on September 1, 2002 02:24:14 PM new
.... "we've found information that indicates that satanic services could be a threat to the institutions, so for now we won't aid or abet satanic worship"
This action by the corrections department reminds me of Orwell's science fiction "thought police". People were convicted of crimes based only on the thought police's perception of crimes that people could commit in the future.
posted on September 1, 2002 04:12:05 PM new
Borillar, transubstantiation is most certainly NOT a literal "transmutation"(what the heck is THAT word?)of bread into human flesh. And there is nothing "literal" about it. In the sacrament of Holy Communion, "transubstantion" is what sets Catholics apart from Protestants. To Protestants, communion is "symbolic". It most certainly is not "symbolic" to Catholics. Nor is it "cannibalism".
While you might deem yourself an "expert" about political matters, you most certainly do not know the first thing about Catholic Doctrine.
posted on September 1, 2002 06:03:57 PM new
I do know about Catholic dogma (two aunts were nuns, great uncle a priest).
"Transmutation" is exactly what Bor said it is. Transmutation in the Catholic ritual is the changing of bread and wine into the flesh and blood of Christ.The incantations of the priests literally change the bread and wine into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ - only priests in the Catholic church are permitted to produce the eucharist. It is a cannabalistic ritual by which eating the flesh and blood of Christ, one is thus "communed" with Christ. If you have ever witnessed communion, watch carefully how the crumbs from the wafers and any spillage of the wine is handled - sacredly--, because it is now the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. But what difference does it make if the ritual is spiritually "literal" or only symbolic, it is still the promotion of cannabalism.
A prison that condones a 'religion' that promotes hatred & evil is backwards
I guess that means prisons should ban all religions. There hasn't been a religion yet that hasn't promoted hatred and evil at some point.
posted on September 1, 2002 08:28:42 PM new
KadyD, one cannot have an exhausting knowledge of history without an extensive examination of the Catholic Church, its beliefs and doctrines, its great thinkers down to the masses who try to live by their words, the rituals and other Holy matters. The act is called "The Miracle of Transubstantiation" and you may read all about it here THEOLOGY FOR THE LAITY, Transubstantiation, By Father Paul A. Duffner, O.P. Of note are these sentances: "NOTHING REMAINS OF THE SUBSTANCE OF THE BREAD AND WINE: When at the consecration of the Mass the words are pronounced "This is My Body," in an instant the underlying substance of the bread is changed into the BODY, BLOOD, SOUL and DIVINITY of Christ. By the power of the words of consecration, the substance of the bread is changed into the Body of Christ." (emph. theirs)
>While you might deem yourself an "expert" about political matters, you most certainly do not know the first thing about Catholic Doctrine.
KatyD, you are not the first to make that mistake. It comes from a belief that if you aren't catholic, how can one know Catholicism? Honestly, catechism classes teach you about church doctrine and how to have sex when married (lie still, don't enjoy it - that's a Sin or "Everytime you masturbate, Baby Jesus begins to Cry!" ) Yup, those classes far exceed what a person can learn by reading books for themselves. >chortle!<
ed. UBB
[ edited by Borillar on Sep 1, 2002 08:31 PM ]
posted on September 1, 2002 08:38:35 PM new
Reamond, you are wrong. And no you no nothing about the Catholic Church. I don't care which family members you say are nuns or priests, if such a claim is true, NOT ONE of those Catholic relatives will agree with your irresponsible assertions. You are completely ignorant about transubstantiation and the Holy Eucharist. Most assuredly we believe in transubstantiation of the host, and thus treat it with respect. This is what we celebrate as The Mystery of Our Faith and is not based in any way on the practice of "eating our God, nor our brother" or cannibalism in any shape or form, symbolic or otherwise. Yours, as well as the ignorant comments of Borillar likening our religious practices to cannibalism, are incorrect and worse, insulting and inflaming about MY religion.
Neither of you are Catholic. Neither of you were educated in the Catholic Church. Your comments are offensive to me and to my religion. The sole purpose of such statements is to denigrate and inflame others against a faith millions practice around the world. There are plenty of anti-Catholic chatboards for you to indulge in your perpetuance of ignorance and hate of Catholicism.
KatyD
(ed. ubb)
[ edited by KatyD on Sep 1, 2002 08:39 PM ]
posted on September 1, 2002 08:49:00 PM newThis is My Body," in an instant the underlying substance of the bread is changed into the BODY, BLOOD, SOUL and DIVINITY of Christ. By the power of the words of consecration, the substance of the bread is changed into the Body of Christ."
Precisely, but this is not "cannibalism", it is the Mystery of our Faith. A miracle if that makes it easier for non-Catholics to understand. A gift that Christ gave to those who followed him at the Last Supper, and yes, the host becomes "divine" through consecration, and we become one with Christ with the requirement of previously being in a "state of grace" through the sacrament of Reconciliation. This is what makes our Holy Communnion different than that of Protestants. To liken our sacrament to cannibalism is inflammatory and insulting.
posted on September 1, 2002 09:18:24 PM new"I've heard for years about satanists being cannibals, that they eat babies."
LoL!!! What a hoot Borillar! I've heard that and other really poorly thought out customs they allegedly practice. I also know very little about Satanism, but I remember a guy called Anton Levey, (sp?) in the late 70's, that wrote the so-called Bible of Satan. He would do the odd interview on TV and was the stereotypical
Ghoulardi type with the black cape and fake horns. If I had of heard about his book first, I might have felt scared, but when I saw him on TV, I couldn't stop laughing. I've read that this book is still considered the backbone of Satanism and was read by Richard Ramerez (sp?) and a few other notable Satan groupies. Do you or anybody remember him?
posted on September 1, 2002 10:26:48 PM new
KatyD, you didn't look at those links that I provided for you. If you had, you would understand thigns a lot clearer.
KD, I recall that there was a nutcase, but like I said, I've never been interested in satanism beause as I stated earlier, if Christianty did not exist as an organized religion, then satanism would not exist either. It is like you stated: people trying to get attention, or to rebell against and to reject their repressive upbringing.
posted on September 1, 2002 11:14:57 PM new
KatyD appears to be in denial. Again, whether it is symbolic or spiritually literal, it is ritual cannabilism. I don't know how it can be explained otherwise. If you are eating the flesh and blodd of your deity, it is cannabalism.
You'd be surprised at the number of Catholics and those of other religions that are totally ignorant of their own rituals.
posted on September 1, 2002 11:44:35 PM new
I've run accross this form of denial from catholics before, REAMOND. For them, they are doing a sacred duty and respectful observance of their god. The inner workings of ritual are left to the priesthood and the knowledge is commonly not shared with the faithful. Martin Luther tried to get away from this goulishness by saying that Christ was already in the bread and wine and did not need to be literally transformed. Still, that makes it only ritual cannabalism, not actual cannabalism. When I first learned of the bread and wine ritual in the protestant faith, I was horified. When I latter learned that the host was consecrated and literally turned ionto flesh and blood in the catholic faith, I was aghast. It still makes me want to puke, even now while writing this post.
posted on September 2, 2002 02:11:00 AM new
I think that the correct term is "transubstantiation", " the miraculous change by which according to Roman Catholic and
Eastern Orthodox dogma the eucharistic elements at their consecration become the body and blood of Christ while keeping only the appearances of bread and wine".
posted on September 2, 2002 08:09:33 AM new
Borillar and Reamond,
I don't have to sit here and explain Catholic catechism to you. Nor do I have to defend my religious beliefs to you so you can publicly denigrate and deride them. And if I thought it would be helpful, I could post link after link from the Vatican and other Catholic organizations that explain transubstantiation. However it is clear that you are both are more comfortable reading the likes of Jack Chick tracts and other false and inflammatory propaganda. All I want to know is who is next on this board for you to target? Jews? Jehovah's Witnesses? Hmm...maybe it will be Mormons, if the "flavor" of the "Smart" thread catches your eye?
Your hateful comments about my religion are unacceptable and inappropriate at the least. I realize that there is no longer moderation at this chat site, but if religious baiting and posting of false propaganda is what is to become the norm here, I want no part of it.
posted on September 2, 2002 08:30:16 AM new
It's not as bad as all of that. A comparison of certain aspects of satanism and catholicism might be a interesting exploration if it could be held to an intellectual plane, without subjectification. In reading the comments by reamond I believe that such a pursuit is his only interest.
posted on September 2, 2002 10:25:37 AM new
This isn't about attacking or defending any religion. The point I am trying to make is that the govt, via prison officials, should not be in the business of legitimizing or de-ligitimizing religious beliefs ( do note I said beliefs, and not actions). My example of the ritual cannabalism of Christians, as exemplified in the last supper, is to point out that the Catholics may be next on the list of banned religions in a prison.
Satanism, Wiccan, Gia, Goddess worship, are just as valid a belief system as any other. If we wish to base govt acceptance of religion on their beliefs, then the freedom of religion clause in the Bill of Rights is worthless. The only thing a govt may ban in a prison is religious activities/actions that pose a credible threat to safety and security. The beliefs of the religion should not be considered for govt scrutiny when determining whether the activity is a threat.
There is a difference between belief and action. Native Americans were banned from using Peyote, but the govt can not take punitive actions against them for maintaining the belief in using Peyote.
There is a free speech element also. While a congregant may preach about an illegal activity, he/she may not incite others to commit those acts. There is a difference between conveying ideas and inciting to action. Preaching about one's religious experience while using Peyote, while it may be persausive, is different than entreating others to use Peyote from the pulpit.
posted on September 2, 2002 11:59:09 AM new"Your hateful comments about my religion are unacceptable and inappropriate at the least. I realize that there is no longer moderation at this chat site, but if religious baiting and posting of false propaganda is what is to become the norm here, I want no part of it."
And this from the very person who has espoused the "KILL THEM ALL AND LET GOD SORT THEM OUT!" blind attitude when it comes to Islam and Muslims from anywhere in the world? What a hypocrite!
The same zero tolerance KatyD is showing towards innocents in Afghanistan and other countries where innocent Muslims are being bombed and slaughtered.
But HER religious beliefs? >>GASP!!<< THOSE are SACRED! Too sacred to even discuss in an open, public forum! God forbid that anyone should have an opinion! Terrible, just terrible!
Right. #*!@ is #*!@, in my view!
KRS - My understanding is that the word Transubstantiation refers to the act itself, whereas the words "Miracle of Transubstantiation" refers to the dogma as well as ritual. At least, in all of the books that I've ever read on the subject referred to it this way. Maybe those theologians are wrong?
posted on September 2, 2002 12:16:09 PM new
>reading the likes of Jack Chick tracts
Hmmm . . . I never read his stuff as he has been discredited by mainstream religious figures since at least the 1970's. There is a certain press here in the west, in Colorado I think, that prints out these little pamphlets that try to use terror to bring people to God. You can usually find them in landromats next to copies of the Watchtower. When I lived in Memphis, those pamphlets were everywhere! They were so horrific that I collected them because they made me laugh. I remember one such that showed some guy feeling guilty about staring at a beautiful woman as she passed by. The pamphlet compared him to peering one-eyed out a dark alley as a sick, drooling sex pervert! LOL!
Actually, the subject of whether or not it is cannibalism, symbolic cannibalism, or some supreme act of faith not cannibalism at all has been around ever since Christianity has been around. Like I mentioned earlier, Christians were accused of cannibalism, and so, thrown to the lions for that very reason. Yes, they were charged with not acknowledging the established pantheon of Roman gods and Nero's charges that they burned down Rome may have influenced it a bit too. But Nero needed more to win over the masses who already suspected him of lighting the fires. The "eating babies" thing came from the sharing of bread and wine ritual from the Last Supper. Certainly, this is all established history and is not meant to slander Catholicism. I bring it up to show that such a subject is appropriate. It relates to the thread topic because Satanism is a rejection of organized Christian practices and faith. And they tend to copy Catholic practices and to dishonor them. That is why the Eucharist not used at the moment is kept locked in a safe place and why Satanists are portrayed as cannibals.
posted on September 2, 2002 02:15:28 PM newAnd this from the very person who has espoused the "KILL THEM ALL AND LET GOD SORT THEM OUT!" blind attitude when it comes to Islam and Muslims from anywhere in the world? What a hypocrite!
You are such a liar, Borillar. I have never posted such a thing, and I have never denigrated the Muslim religion. I may not agree with the political motivation of Muslim religious fanatics, but I have never posted demeaning propaganda about any religion, and challenge you to find one post of mine where I have.
The same zero tolerance KatyD is showing towards innocents in Afghanistan and other countries where innocent Muslims are being bombed and slaughtered.
I am tolerant of all religions, and the bombing of Afghanistan is a political decision arising from the decisions of the GOVERNMENT there aiding and abetting terrorists. Innocents die in war, no doubt and it is regrettable and not something to take pleasure in. I have never EV ER advocated killing anyone because of the religion they practice or believe in. Such a thing is abhorrent to me.
This is not the first time you have attributed posts to me which I have not made. Either you do not fully comprehend what you read or you do not take the time to know who is posting what. The lies and religious hate you preachare the same themes that are found on any white supremacist or KKK website. The same old crap toward Jews and Catholics. It's hateful and wrong. You are a hateful individual, Borillar. And you are wrong. If you like links so much, there's lots out there that explain Catholic catechism and doctrine. Try the Vatican website. Then you can "get it" direct.
And for the record, a$$hole, I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic schools, and was never admonished about sexual positions or masturbation or any of that other crap you get from reading you favorite redneck sites. What I was taught was to be tolerant towards a$$holes like you. Little did THEY know. Huh.
