posted on November 11, 2002 08:16:38 AM new
The tragedy of love for the known and unknown soldiers who fought and are fighting will be with us forever...In Distrust of Merits, Marianne Moore wrote, "some we love whom we know, some we love but know not"
Especially relevant right now, she wrote of the "The seeing who have no sight......"None are so frightening as the blind who can see" --the morally blind whose possession of military power threatens all.
Helen
ed. to remove trite poem by Marianne Moore.
[ edited by Helenjw on Nov 14, 2002 06:45 AM ]
posted on November 11, 2002 12:28:54 PM new
Helen, you beat me to it and I loved your quotes.
As I sit here at the Tourist Center looking down the street at the flags the Ladies Auxillary has on display, the flags on our poles and the red, white and blue ribbons dressing up our lights I feel a sense of awe as I think of they who have given up their lives or part of their lives, bodies and souls to honor this country and we the people who live here.
Whether Democrat or Republican or Republican or Democrat or any other party one thing we can say is that we are Americans and I thank God that I was born in and live in America.
Thank you Veterans for all that you have given to make our lives as comfortable as they are. God Bless you for making that sacrifice.
It was the headline above from the CBS Marketwatch site that I thought ironically appropriate. Since it won't remain there long, the appropriateness of the above link to this thread would likely become puzzling shortly without a mention of the headline here.
Well, there is good reason for fear. I read today that " Intensive bombing is likely to start within the next few weeks, followed by an invasion of troops in the first part of next year. More forces are being steadily deployed into the region, command and control centres are being moved up, while British and US aircraft have stepped up their bombing raids that are aimed at knocking out the limited Iraqi defences and radar."
posted on November 11, 2002 11:30:29 PM new
Troops. Our Troops. On the Ground. In Combat.
How many of you who read this are willing to see your son or grandson, daughter or granddaughter torn in half with gunfire and shredded to bloody bits from shell fire? How many have a loved one who now lives but by this time next year, will have had his or her head severed off by shrapnel and came home in a closed casket? How many are prepared for the sight or the armless, legless, eyeless wounded whom as history shows us, the government will have forgotten them within a few years? How many more Walls will we need to fill up with names - names of those burned to a black steaming crisp from flamethrowers, the unrecognizable horror of what happens to flesh from chemical attacks, the biological attacks, and God forbid, the nuclear attacks? How many of you are sitting there looking forward to sacrificing your young's life at the hands of this unprovoked War with Iraq?
How will you feel for your loss when they hand you that flag?
And will you feel that it was all worth it when the enemy retaliates? Not just on their own soil this time, but on our own, here in the continental United States? How many cities will we loose to biological attack has the Bush Administration admitted to in their estimates? Will you still feel vindicated when a so-called Dirty Bomb goes off upwind a few blocks away from you and your children's school and playground?
And it doesn't get prettier.
How will the Iraqi people see us: Saviors or Conquerors, as American-owned and held bayonets stab through their babies for the fun of the troops and the sheer horror of on looking parents and relatives? How many respected, kindly grandparents blood and flesh will be ingrained into the walls of buildings from nearby bomb blasts from American jets and tank shells? How about seeing their best friend look like gory road kill from being run over by tank treads as he or she tried to escape?
And we're doing it for what reason did they say - this week?
No, there will be no Joy in Mudville over this, certainly no Honor, or accomplishment to be proud of. Just shame and horror and the loss of our Honor worldwide for no good reason.
posted on November 12, 2002 06:33:22 AM new
After reading the link provided by krs above and learning how Bush avoided military service it was especially repulsive to see Bush standing with his hand over his heart....the heart that has never experienced the fear or horror of a battlefield.... as he used the occasion of Veteran's day to prepare Americans for his next planned attack. What a pitiful excuse for a man.
As he rattled his saber, he said, "Over the generations, Americans in uniform have defended this nation without seeking to dominate any nation. American troops do not come as conquerors but as liberators. We believe in self government for every land. And we believe that freedom is the hope of people of all cultures."
..Now, we have another American ideal trashed and another lie by George Bush.
If you haven't already, wave goodbye to peace and prosperity. You can't create and maintain a police state with an aggressive foreign policy unless the resources, both fiscal and human, are devoted to the State.
The very rich will become even richer.
The very powerful, even more powerful.
The other 99% will feel the chill, but wrap themselves tighter in their illusions and feed on prepackaged, synthetic cliches and superstitions to alleviate the pangs of grawing doubt.
posted on November 12, 2002 09:23:52 AM new
Wave good bye to security also.
Today it was reported in the Washington Post that the FBI is "dangerously unprepared to detect or thwart strikes on U.S. soil." Over a year after the WTC and Pentagon terrorism, the FBI does not have a thorough understanding of networks that will retaliate when Iraq is attacked.
They don't know the location of the terrorists or what kind of support they have. Apparently, the FBI has focused on policing and neglected the type of investigative work that might shed some light on what we can expect when Bush launches his attack. Senator Bob Graham, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee stated, "No evidence I've seen shows they have a sense of urgency or a thoughtful plan or very much information to predicate a plan on. He added, "There will be hell to payif we don't use the next 60 days to do everything in our power to dismantle their capability.
Wouldn't you think that George Bush would know that such a retaliation is to be expected? Why doesn't he know that a U.S. war against Iraq will be seen as an assault against Islam. Why doesn't he know that al Qaeda will not ignore this attack?
Then to add to this ludicrous situation, we have US citizens either voting for him or not voting against him and someone from a pitifully uninformed corner says that he is "a war-time President with the highest sustained approval ratings in history".
....While he leads us straight to hell! with no hope for peace, prosperity or security.
Helen
sp. ed.
[ edited by Helenjw on Nov 12, 2002 09:39 AM ]
posted on November 12, 2002 09:59:52 AM new
Well, we've been hearing for two years now how government is simply an act of faith. Questioning is sacrilegious. That's the only path to political truth. Just put aside all worldly concerns, and believe with your whole heart, Helen. We'll defeat the evils of reason and democracy and embrace a reborn government. What could be simpler than that?
Do you suppose that the acronym for FBI has been secretly altered? Damn, there's that faith problem again. They've been busily doing something for the last year and I'm sure that it's all for our own good. I wonder if it's sacrilegious to even speculate about it though. Maybe it's the Federal Bureau of Inquisition and they're quietly purging the country of political and intellectual sinners, a purification process to make us worthy first to receive the gift of protection from terrorism. I bet that's it!
posted on November 12, 2002 10:28:35 AM newROFLMHO @
"and someone from a pitifully uninformed corner says that he is "a war-time President with the highest sustained approval ratings in history." Thanks for the laugh Helen
The person in your so called "pitifully uninformed corner" was none other than.....are you sitting down???? DNC Chairman, Terry McAuliffe Taken from the DNC website.
[ edited by Linda_K on Nov 12, 2002 10:30 AM ]
question
The subject of your Concordia talk is “Journalism and Sept. 11” and the failure to ask, “Why?” What did you expect to see in those first few days [after the attacks]? What would you have liked to see?
Robert Fisk
RF On Sept. 11, I was flying to America and my plane turned ’round and went back to Europe. I called the office on the plane’s satellite phone and I said, “Okay, this has happened, but we have to ask the question why.” They said, “How long do you need to write it?” and I said, “I’ve written the first two sentences and the rest I will dictate from my head.” You can look up my story from Sept. 12, 2001http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=93623. Apart from the first two sentences, everything else was all written in an airline seat on a satellite phone over the Atlantic.
Question
M: You expected to see other people asking and answering the question why?
Robert Fisk
RF: No, I expected nobody to ask why. The night of Sept. 11 I was back in Europe. I was doing radio shows. I kept saying, “Why, why, why?” and the other guy on the show, [Alan] Dershowitz, started calling me a dangerous man. He said to be anti-American is the same as to be anti-Semitic. I said, “This is outrageous. This is not true. We must ask the question why.” So when I come to give lectures, my intention is to try to open that debate.
posted on November 12, 2002 11:11:12 AM new
The full quote:
"They had a war-time President with the highest sustained approval ratings in history, who made these elections his number-one domestic priority. He spent the year raising record amounts of money and the final three weeks stumping relentlessly for Republican candidates.
[All the while as much as ignoring all but the most politically threatening [to him] real domestic issues]
"Republicans also had tens of millions of dollars of special-interest money on their side, money that helped them blur the very real differences between our parties on key issues like prescription drugs and Social Security".
posted on November 12, 2002 12:27:17 PM new quote taken out of context??? I don't think so.
He said those words...no denying it....nothing left out of that quote changes what he said.
and you said he was from the "pitifully uninformed corner".
you know, krs, I've long believed you post here AS 'helen'. Especially when you only 'pop' in to try and help her remove her foot from her mouth. Wouldn't be the first time you posted under multi-ids here. Rememeber???
If you read the entire paragraph, you will see that McAuliffe was pointing out that the Republican focus was tactical rather than ideological.
Linda, I don't have my foot in my mouth. In my opinion you are still in your pitifully uninformed corner only now, I will add juvenile to the description of your corner. LOL!
You are now in a juvenile and pitifully uninformed corner. Hahaha!
posted on November 12, 2002 01:19:24 PM new
The entire quote.
And if you can't see the distortion that your out of context quote caused, I'll have to add to the description of your corner.
"If the Republicans had an edge over us yesterday, it was tactical rather than ideological. Ultimately, many of our candidates couldn't overcome the political muscle that carried many Republicans over the finish line. They had a war-time President with the highest sustained approval ratings in history, who made these elections his number-one domestic priority. He spent the year raising record amounts of money and the final three weeks stumping relentlessly for Republican candidates."
"Republicans also had tens of millions of dollars of special-interest money on their side, money that helped them blur the very real differences between our parties on key issues like prescription drugs and Social Security."
Your harassment is unacceptable and inappropriate. In other words, you are making a fool of yourself.
Most people who have been here as long as you have know my identity. One of the posters who left when the credit card requirement was installed, lives across the road from my relatives in Mississippi. You know her well and she still posts on another board.
posted on November 12, 2002 04:31:29 PM new
You must look as dopey as you sound, Linda.
Why deny your idiotic allegation? I admitted that in open forum before you were ever here and was included amongst the beneficiaries of the general amnesty for such things applied to all posters of the day. I'm sure that you've heard of that as well as having heard of the other as most everything that you say that you know is directly derived from the mouths of others as hearsay.
There, was that some odd triumph in your perverse way of seeing things? How nice. The fact of it makes you less interesting to converse with than Bunnicula's mule who, by association with her, must by now have a great deal to share and might do so, except for the accompanying knowledge that you'd never understand him and would because of that only be an unnecessarily tedious interuption.
posted on November 12, 2002 05:05:20 PM new
I think that if we do not want to be insulted, we must not insult others. Instead, how about if we all agree to disagree and discuss the issues at hand? While Bush has had those poll numbers, I personally don't believe them anymore than the claim that he was fairly elected President. As far as "War Time President" goes, he crowned himself with that title after 9-11, an incident by itself, and created a War against anyone that he doesn't like, including dictatorial power to point at and to arrest anyone he declares "an enemy combatant."
No, the quote may have been said in whatever context that it has, but I don't believe a word of it. That's just me.
Veterans Day used to be called Armistice Day, because it was November 11, 1918, at 11 AM - the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, that the first World War came to an end.
It would be good to remember a few things about that war as this country is about to embark on still another war. First, that you don’t "win" wars. We "won" World War I, but sowed the seeds of another world war. War is a quick fix, like crack. An exultant high - we won! - and soon you’re down again, and you need another fix, another war.
In World War I. the German Kaiser was presented as the epitome of evil - a threat to the world,, who must be eliminated for our safety. In truth, he was bad, but his danger to us was enormously exaggerated, as with Saddam Hussein. So the Allies defeated Germany, got rid of the Kaiser, and ten million men died on the battlefields.
We can get rid of Saddam Hussein. Iraq is a fifth-rate military power, with no Air Force to speak of, its army a remnant of what it was ten years ago, the country still in ruins, its infrastructure devastated by two wars, its people weakened by ten years of sanctions depriving people of food and hospitals of medicine, and causing hundreds of thousands of deaths. And the U.S. with its invincible Air Force, will win.
In the course of that, tens of thousands of Iraqis will die, , many of them innocent civilians, others poor, miserable conscripts in the Iraqi army. We will be killing the victims of Saddam Hussein. . Because of its high tech weaponry and overwhelming military superiority, America will lose few soldiers. But it will lose its soul.
World War I, presented to the public as a war for democracy, for freedom, was in fact a war fought by imperial powers (France, England, Russia) against an imperial rival, Germany. It led, not to the freedom of colonial peoples, but to a change in who dominated the Middle East, Africa, Eastern Europe.
Now, the war in Iraq is presented as a moral crusade to end the menace of "weapons of mass destruction", the evidence for which is far from clear. The assumption that Saddam would use them and invite annihilation (since most weapons of mass destruction in the world are held by the United States) makes no sense.
As in the first World War, there are imperial motives at work, and the defeat of Saddam will lead to a change in who controls the precious oil reserves of Iraq. Deals will be cut with Russia, France and England to divide the booty. The talks are going on right now.
The first World war was sold to the American public as "the war to end ll wars". But twenty-one years later came World War II, in which fifty million people were killed. The United Nations was formed, as its Charter says, "to end the scourge of war which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind".
But no, it’s been war after war for the United States: Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Iraq, Yugoslavia. All accompanied by claims that we were at war for some good cause, all resulting in the loss of human life, all demanding acceptance of the government’s reasons for war, most of which turned out to be lies. We should have learned from Vietnam that true patriotism does not mean marching off to war just because the government tells you to. Those 58,000 names on the Washington memorial should make that clear.
As a veteran of World War II, as a student of the history of our wars, and contemplating still another war, I suggest we keep certain things in mind. First, that we must be extremely skeptical of whatever government officials tell us about the reasons for going to war. Second, that what is certain about war is that large numbers of innocent people will die, including many children, and what is uncertain about war is that any good will come of it.
Finally, that when you go to war, you assume that the lives of people in another country are not as valuable as the lives of your own countrymen. If we really believe, as our most fundamental moral principles demand we believe, that the children in other countries have as much right to live as our children, then we must refuse the call to war. It is time, by public demand, by general outcry, to end "the scourge of war" .
The best thing we can do for Veterans Day is to pledge: "No more war veterans".
