posted on January 26, 2003 01:49:13 AM new
No wonder Social Security is going to go broke when the baby boomers retire. They killed a good portion of the next generation!
posted on January 26, 2003 06:30:29 AM new
DOUBTFUL IF MANY OF THOSE "KILLED" WOULD OF BEEN MUCH USE TO SOCIETY, COMING FROM BROKEN HOMES AND BEING AN UNWANTED AFTER THOUGHT TO A NIGHT OF FUN OR AN UNWANTED BYPRODUCT OF RAPE...
MORE LIKE SAVED THE COUNTRY SOME CASH BY GETTING RID OF SOMETHING THAT PROBABLY WOULD OF BEEN ON SOME SORT OF ASSISTANCE OR IN PRISON.
OR WORSE KILLED THE MOTHER BY BEING BORN...
YEP, BEING BORN INTO A WORLD WHERE YOU ARE NOT WANTED SURE IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on Jan 26, 2003 06:32 AM ]
posted on January 26, 2003 10:34:36 AM new
Instead of mourning what isn't, why don't you try mourning for the babies that have been born - to crack mothers, addicts, teenagers, people that can't afford them, etc. These are the children that need your help, not the unborn.
posted on January 26, 2003 11:23:06 AM new20 million abortions since Roe vs.Wade
Show me please.I would like to know where that accounting of abortions is from.Not trying to give you any grief,I would just like to know who has been counting.Does this number include forced abortions in other countrys?Does this number include back alley numbers, before Roe vs.Wade?
Is there an accounting of poor or middle class or by race?
posted on January 26, 2003 11:41:16 AM new
junquemama - If you ask those on both sides of the issue, or read the hundreds of sites that speak to this issue, you will find numbers that are all over the board. Peggy Noonan ran a recent article where she stated the number of abortions performed yearly are around 40 million. And she stated that she felt that was a number both sides would probably agree with.
Maybe you could email her directly and ask where she got her information from. Her direct email is at the bottom of most of her columns.
One of the reasons it's so hard to have accurate numbers is because a lot of states don't require they be reported.
BIG CORRECTION Above I said a year....that is not correct....since Roe vs. Wade is.
[ edited by Linda_K on Jan 26, 2003 11:53 AM ]
posted on January 26, 2003 12:06:40 PM new
Those are startling figures Linda.
I wonder what the number is of children that live in foster care, adoption care, hospitals, abusive homes, etc. is? Double, triple? And how good is the care system for these children, let alone add on 20 million more? I also wonder how many of these abused children wish they had never been born, or wonder why they were?
P.S. There's a snow storm outside so I'm in a rambling mode...
posted on January 26, 2003 12:20:14 PM new
KD - You know I worked in the field. I am pro-choice. BUT I very much believe, after my personal experiences, that there needs to be some MAJOR changes made to the way the whole process is now.
Your point really doesn't change my mind because what I propose isn't forcing these women to have to have these children, but rather that other methods be used to prevent conception. Not using abortion as a form of birth control, which is happening in a larger number of cases than most want to accept. Easier access of the 'morning after pill'. That these women can make their decision to keep, or not, their pregnancies....but to allow them past the point of where a child could live on it's own, I just can't accept. Say, for example only during the first trimester.
Most things in life have limits/regulations....why not here?
"If you ask those on both sides of the issue, or read the hundreds of sites that speak to this issue, you will find numbers that are all over the board. Peggy Noonan ran a recent article where she stated the number of abortions performed yearly are around 40 million. And she stated that she felt that was a number both sides would probably agree with."
<end quote>
Frankly, I would not ask Peggy Noonan.
Based on CDC info, the total number of abortions for the following years are...
posted on January 26, 2003 12:43:13 PM new
LindaK,First thing I was made aware of is Peggy Noonan is very much a republican.The next thing I noticed,she has a privledged background.Have you read any of her quotes?
What is life? A madness. What is life? An illusion, a shadow, a story. And the greatest good is little enough: for all life is a dream, and dreams themselves are only dreams.
A great speech is literature.
Is there any independant accounting?Far from the political battles?Im looking for Joe Fridays "Just the facts Mam"..Everything seems to be tied to agendas.The reason being,mainly a few years ago we were shown crack babies, on the nightly news,and the costs of keeping these babies alive.You dont hear about them anymore,and crack is still out there 50% or more then when it was talked about in the 1980s.
posted on January 26, 2003 12:46:05 PM new
I sure agree with you Linda... I wasn't trying to change your mind on anything. Anyone that uses abortion as a means of birth control should have their head examined and their tubes tied (I'm being nice). And as you stated in another thread, it's all part of the deterioration of society. What I mean is that, even though the abortion numbers are staggering, the number of children we have to deal with now, that are living, is also staggering. Shouldn't we be concentrating on those children first?
posted on January 26, 2003 01:00:21 PM new
Hellen,I didnt see you while typing,Thankyou for the numbers.
S/H
In a Mans view the abortion issue is so easy a fix,not true tho because it has always been a very personal issue with a woman.Thats why women will not freely discuss this issue on the boards.I know of some women who have gone thru abortion,usually just once,because they are never the same again.This is not an easy issue mental or physical for a woman.Abortion is the last ditch attempt for many woman who tried everyway in the world to keep that pregnacy,but they live in the real world,and words have no meaning if they have no solutions.The rage is about late term abortions,I would like to see those numbers as well.
posted on January 26, 2003 01:07:03 PM new
Of course not...no Republican can be trusted to be telling the truth.
Sorry...I had to say that.
junquemama - Helen's post is not giving the whole picture. The four states that don't report, therefore their abortion numbers are not included are: California New Hampshire, Oklahome and Alaska.
From the CDC website it says: [i]In 1998, as in previous years, most legal induced abortions were performed in New York City, Florida, and Texas; the fewest were performed in Wyoming, South Dakota, Idaho, and North Dakota (Table 3). In previous years, a large number of legal induced abortions also were performed in California (7). The lack of data for California explains most of the national decrease of 25% in the number of abortions reported between 1997 and 1998.
But even so...why argue over the numbers. That and believe the numbers posted...then multipuly then by the number of years since Roe vs Wade. They're still high. That means the first figure Helen point out = 32,024,511. And the decline? Read the above copy and paste from the CDC about California not reporting their numbers. You think a ton of abortions aren't happened in one of the most liberal state of the Union? I don't.
posted on January 26, 2003 01:14:59 PM new
KD - I know you weren't. I'm coming across as angry today...and I apologize for that. I am upset, but don't mean to be taking it out on others.
From your posts, over time KD, if you'd experienced what I have there's no doubt in my mind that you'd see some limits are very much needed. When you deal with some idiot that's coming in for her 3rd or 4th abortion and refuses to use birthcontrol because her boyfriend doesn't like to....or because she states they made her gain 5 pounds, etc. etc. It would drive you crazy.
But there sure are a lot of restrictions about what you can do to make a woman THINK before she makes her decision. BUT.....you're not allowed to.
And I do understand what you are saying about those already born and not well cared for. That has always been the way, even before abortions were legal. And it's okay we disagree that this is a reason to [or not] put SOME limits on abortion.
posted on January 26, 2003 01:16:03 PM new
LindaK,You said:
". Not using abortion as a form of birth control, which is happening in a larger number of cases than most want to accept."
I have never heard of a woman who would freely go thru so much pain as abortion, as a form of birth control.She would have to be in a coma or dead.
I do know some women cant take pills,some who get pregnant while on the pill,condoms that break,a whole host of problems.Rape numbers are what?every 10 or 15 minutes?a woman is raped?Then you are getting into a whole different gene pool and chances are the guy has Aids or some other sexual disease.
Anyone who would think a woman freely aborts without consequence, is the biggest fool of all.
posted on January 26, 2003 01:25:02 PM new
junquemama - Anyone who would think a woman freely aborts without consequense, is the biggest fool of all.
So...call me a fool. I know what's true and what's happening behind those closed doors. And until you've worked in an abortion clinic you [and others] will never know the truth. I use to think and believe just as you, and many others do, please believe that at least.
My opinions changed because of what I saw. What happens is very different from what most believe happens. Yes, there are some who when they came in you could see they were struggling with this decision. I don't mean to imply none do. But the majority of women coming into abortion clinics are young, white and unmarried. Many were repeat visitors.
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm trying to be part of the group that just wants all the facts presented so people can make a more informed decision.
posted on January 26, 2003 01:42:03 PM new
Next time, get your facts straight before you present your argument or make your comment or accusations or ask your inappropriate questions.
posted on January 26, 2003 01:47:52 PM new
LindaK,That message was for the person that started the thread,and hasnt posted since.Note my "The men have left the building",message.
I would be the last one to make fun of the way you think or believe,You are where you are for a reason.You are true to your convictions and a strong soul for doing it,Intimadations and threats havent swayed you.
Time is the change,we all change,I flip flop on opinions every couple of years.Anything Ive said should not be taken personal as I have my own demons to battle as we all have.
posted on January 26, 2003 01:58:55 PM new
junquemama - I understand...again I apologize for the way I'm coming acoss today. You can see that the numbers quoted of around 40 million abortions to date are 'in the ball park' of being correct. At least according to the CDC. They started watching abortion levels in 1969, but of course one needs to understand that these reported are 'for sure' and that the numbers are all still just estimates. Who's to know how many are going on it the four states that aren't reporting.
Thank you, junquemama for saying what you did. I appreciate it very much.
posted on January 26, 2003 02:16:00 PM new
Most aborted babies would have become criminals, probably killing their own parents.
Most aborted babies come from women who are crack addicts.
Most aborted babies are the result of rape or incest.
If abortion were illegal, women would do it anyway, and probably die as a result.
There isn't enough room in the world for more children.
We can't afford more children. Have you seen the price of gas lately?
There isn't enough food for more children. (I don't like to share my Sara Lee cheesecake with anyone.)
posted on January 26, 2003 03:13:15 PM new
KD - Thank you too. I know [or at least think I do] that you wouldn't approve of terminating a pregnancy just because [and only because] the fetus is a female. That's being done in VERY large numbers by at least two different cultures of women. Then there is one culture who's belief is that you never use birthcontrol [they're not Christians either ] but rather the withdrawl method. So...abortion is used for those above mentioned reasons also.
Bye darn, here we are two Republicans and two pro-choice women. Who'd have thunk it? Maybe there is more to the Republican party than one would imagine, Huh?
I agree with you on everything you have said in this thread.
posted on January 26, 2003 08:08:58 PM new
Just lurking here ladies, as I really don't think a man's opinion carries much weight on this issue...but I just noticed that the original poster is nowhere to be seen beyond his(her?) initial post...the same is true in his other current thread...must have gone back under the bridge
posted on January 26, 2003 09:54:17 PM new
I agree Linda. I'm also pro-choice but I couldn't imagine working in a clinic and having stupid people with lame excuses for having an abortion become a common thing. If I was a fighter, I'd be tempted to beat them up. I feel it's gotten so out of hand that women should be forced to have their tubes tied until they are 30. It would be a lot less pain - physically and emotionally for them compared to an abortion.
posted on January 26, 2003 10:41:12 PM new
Kraftdinner
<QUOTE>
I agree Linda. I'm also pro-choice but I couldn't imagine working in a clinic and having stupid people with lame excuses for having an abortion become a common thing. If I was a fighter, I'd be tempted to beat them up. I feel it's gotten so out of hand that women should be forced to have their tubes tied until they are 30. It would be a lot less pain - physically and emotionally for them compared to an abortion.
<END QUOTE>
Abortion wouldn't be a choice that I would personally make under normal circumstances but I believe that it should be a choice available to every woman. Why do you mention stupid people? Intelligence level should not be a qualifing prerequisite for an abortion. Excuses should not be required and subject to some counselor's judgement. What may be a catastrophic circumstance to one individual may appear to be a "lame excuse" to someone else.
You mentioned being tempted to "Beat them up"? Your anger seems to indicate that you are not really pro choice, especially if you agree with Linda.
"Forcing" women to have a surgical procedure as a method of involuntary birth control is an outlandish idea!
It appears to me that on the issue of pro choice that you are sitting smack dab on the fence.
[ edited by Twelvepole on Jan 26, 2003 06:32 AM ]
Anyone that uses abortion as a means of birth control should have their head examined and their tubes tied (I'm being nice). And as you stated in another thread, it's all part of the deterioration of society. What I mean is that, even though the abortion numbers are staggering, the number of children we have to deal with now, that are living, is also staggering. Shouldn't we be concentrating on those children first?
] but rather the withdrawl method. So...abortion is used for those above mentioned reasons also.