posted on May 8, 2001 11:22:51 AM new
johncarillo, most people posting complaints about locked accounts are simply mistaken. Their account was not locked at all.
"Why do you keep bringing up the NDAs?
This is an issue yisgood. NDA's are typically an indicator of a business deal"
I would sign one with paypal too if they asked. All these services wanted was that I should not reveal any sensitive information they may reveal in speaking with me. I haven't received a dime from any of them, as I have repeated often, so what makes me biased? The only service that has given me anything of financial value is Paypal. I got some t-shirts and quite a few bucks in referral fees back when they paid them. So if I am biased toward anyone, it would be paypal.
Now you asked me to present both sides. I gave you three cases. I am still waiting for your explanation. [email protected] had his very active Paypal account restricted without explanation.(the user is more than welcome to come back to explain the reason for the account restriction, but I can't).
He uses it almost entirely for buying, not selling. He uses his bank account, not credit card. His account was restricted after he bought $1300 in goods from a number of folks. The money was taken from his bank account but not sent out to the sellers. So now he has a number of negs for not paying and his reputation has been ruined for reasons paypal won't explain. He spent weeks calling and emailing to find out why. He posted here, you got involved and within days his account is unrestricted, still without explanation or apology.
1) Why was his account restricted? (see above)
2) Why did it take weeks to resolve? (don't have all the details, but I resolved it).
3) Why was he asked to fax in driver's license, bank statements, etc and then when he did so, no action took place?
(I work in an entirely separate office (corporate) and the information would have been sent to customer service. I don't have the details you are looking for).
4) Why did it take posting on a public forum and getting you involved to correct what customer service should have done in the first place? (I have advised that I come to the forums to make sure that outstanding situations are resolved that did not get taken care of ---this is to close the loop on issues that may not have been resolved. You point to several instances, out of the thousands of emails and phone calls resolving issues daily, as indicators of a large-scale problem.)
5) Why do we find no such stories about any of the other services? (Probably because we are the largest payment service and we activate more accounts daily than most have as an entire user base)
6) Why does Paypal still have a bad rating with the BBB months after the article came out and Paypal promised it would be fixed?
(Ratings do not change overnight. My understanding, based on information that I have, is that complaints have been cut in half. We will work to make sure that the number continues to dwindle and we hope that the BBB will rate us as satisfactory).
7) Why do you ignore direct questions and try to redirect attention elsewhere with innuendo against me or answers to different questions, just like defense attorneys of guilty clients do?
(Because I find your information lacking all the details on any customer case you bring forward and highly biased.I also find that your comments generate a fair amount of undue concern for users in the forums based on incomplete information).
You asked me to present the other side. I am still waiting to hear it.
To give you an idea of some of the account restrictions that have made the boards lately:
1. User accessing the service from countries not approved for use with PayPal.
2. User that had multiple claims/charge backs filed against them (that did not supply information relative to the Seller Protection Program).
3. Users that had multiple personal/premier accounts open (tou violation).
4.Users that have had multiple, large dollar amount claims filed against them (fraud measure).
5..A user that appeared to be part of a pyramid scheme (fraud measure).
5-7 problems related to account restrictions (on a busy week) appear on the boards. These are some of the immediate reasons I can point to. These are just a sampling of some of the items that have come to my attention---without implying a specific user.
I also forgot to mention that a common reason, one that is entirely avoidable, is having incorrect/outdated telephone numbers on the account. We will often try to call before taking action on the account--I would urge all users to make sure that their information is current in this regard. Several of the cases did involve our trying to contact the user, which we could not because of the information on the account.
posted on May 8, 2001 04:15:28 PM new
None of your answers explain this particular situation. Again, the user was a buyer, not a seller. He used his bank account, not credit card. His account was open for months and thousands of dollars had gone through it without a hitch. He even posted pages of transactions before AW erased his post because it revealed user information. He was never told why it was restricted except that there was some suspicion of fraud with another account. But the real question is:
1) Why did paypal wait until he had withdrawn $1300 from his account to make payments before restricting his account?
2) If you really did think there was fraud, why didn't you at least reverse the withdrawal?
3) You claim that Paypal makes an attempt to contact the user. I find that hard to believe. Paypal ignored the user's numerous attempts to contact them. They ignored his calls and emails and made him fax and re-fax his info.
4) The fact that his account became unrestricted within days of his posting here (thanks to your help) proves to me that he did not commit and fraud. So the restriction was a paypal "safety" feature. Though these safety features may have good purpose, locking up a customer's money and ignoring him is inexcusable.
Again, I have still not gotten an answer to one question: Why doesn't paypal have any way for customers to contact someone with the authority to look into restricted accounts and fix them quickly? This was promised at least 6 months ago. If, as you claim, there are very few restricted accounts, it would seem that it would not be that difficult to do.
posted on May 9, 2001 12:03:26 PM new
I wonder if I'm the only one that has noticed the originator of this thread places himself in the role of Judge Judy demanding a 'public hearing', but he's made numerous post explaining how another service or he will not being able to discuss their fraud investigations, procedures, or safeguards, or policies in an open forum.
Nawww... I doubt anyone else notices things like that, but maybe someday the right person will notice that and the pattern of those actions and then
posted on May 9, 2001 12:21:10 PM new
>>I wonder if I'm the only one that has noticed the originator of this thread places himself in the role of Judge Judy demanding a 'public hearing'<<
It was Damon who kept stating that my posts were one-sided. So I gave him the opportunity to present his side. I'm still waiting to hear it.
>>he's made numerous post explaining how another service or he will not being able to discuss their fraud investigations, procedures, or safeguards, or policies in an open forum<<
and I haven't asked paypal to explain their fraud investigations, only why they freeze funds without notice and make the users jump through hoops for weeks or months to get answers. When another service does the same thing, I will ask them the same question.
>>I doubt anyone else notices things like that,<<
and I wonder if anyone else notices that we have not seen a SINGLE complaint about frozen funds, frozen accounts or lack of customer service from any of the other services (with the exception of paydirect).
>> but maybe someday the right person will notice that and the pattern of those actions and then <<
I'm not exactly sure what you're implying here. Are you saying that maybe the right person will notice the pattern that only paypal is making these actions and then a real investigation will take place?
posted on May 9, 2001 12:28:19 PM new
What I have noticed is a common theme to the complaints posted across all Paypal related threads replied to by the same circle of paypallies all reading from the same page....
Had Paypal responded to my e-mails or letter, I would not have filed a complaint with the BBB minutes ago.
Now, wouldn't you think a letter received by a company dedicated to reducing BBB complaints would have responded if it clearly stated that a complaint would be lodged in 14 days if no answer is forthcoming.
PS: I waited 3 weeks.
Okay Paypallies, get out your handbook and locate the proper response.
contact: [email protected]
posted on May 9, 2001 12:56:32 PM new
roofguy: "johncarillo, maybe you can explain why you believed you had a legitmate reason to demand attention from Paypal. Or maybe you can't."
Let me understand you thought processes, if at all possible. You feel that a customer, whether right or wrong, is not owed a reply to their concerns or questions?
Perhaps this philosophy explains a great deal.
I almost let this one pass thinking that you're not really serious. I don't think even your "leader" would agree with you on this one. Then again, actions......
posted on May 9, 2001 01:19:55 PM new
Roofguy, you just don't get it. I'm sure not going to preach to the converted. I bet if you were at Jonestown, you would have asked for a second cup of Kool-Aid.
contact: [email protected]
posted on May 9, 2001 01:31:04 PM new
yisgood I wonder if anyone else notices that we have not seen a SINGLE complaint about frozen funds, frozen accounts or lack of customer service from any of the other services (with the exception of paydirect).
Interesting yisgood, interesting. Now why on earth could that be?
Did you know that Californians comprise the largest number of the complaints about internet fraud? Next is Florida, then New York, then Texas. South Dakota isn't even on the list... I guess South Dakota is the safest place to purchase from on the internet.
Did you know most internet fraud reported deals with payments made via Money Orders and Credit Cards? Did you know that the fewest complaints deal with sending cash? I guess sending cash is the safest form of payment.
We all know by now that Damon will NEVER give a straight answer in response to most questions. To do so is apparently against PayPal's ethical standards.
We all know by now that the PayPal cheerleaders will keep on cheerleading until their turn at being screwed by PayPal comes up (and it's only a matter of time).
posted on May 9, 2001 03:43:34 PM new
Hi dubyasdaman,
Yisgood is acting for specifics on an account, which I will not offer to him or the public message boards. He is more than welcome to contact the users directly to see if the reason for the restriction was explained and how it was resolved.
I would also like you to direct me to an unethical practice or comment that I have engaged in. I can only speak to company policy on an issue and give a little background about why, but I can't force any member to accept the explanation offered.
posted on May 9, 2001 03:57:22 PM new
>>Yisgood is acting for specifics on an account, which I will not offer to him or the public message boards.<<
Every time I post someone's story on my site, you complain that I haven't asked for the other side. Then when I ask for the other side, you say you can't tell me. So stop trying to pretend that it is my fault that there is no other side.
>>He is more than welcome to contact the users directly to see if the reason for the restriction was explained and how it was resolved. <<
I did ask the users. They did tell me that in many cases Paypal never explained it other than to say "suspicion of fraud." And before your cheerleaders start saying "Well doesn't that prove there is something wrong with the poster," the fact that the restricted account was unrestricted within days of posting here and the accounts with frozen funds were unfrozen upon posting here, proves to me that there was no fraud. The accounts were restricted maybe with cause, maybe in error. But the real problem is that the users were not informed, paypal ignored them for weeks and made them fax and re-fax the same information for no apparent reason.
Now it is your turn. You can't talk about account specifics. How about generalities? Why does paypal ignore their customers until they are forced to post here and complain to the BBB? Why hasn't paypal managed to get a phone for the guy in charge of restrictions? If paypal believes that an account may be involved in fraud, why did they wait until $1300 was withdrawn from the bank account to make payments before freezing it? Wouldn't it make sense to freeze it before the money was withdrawn?
posted on May 9, 2001 05:18:37 PM newI would also like you to direct me to an unethical practice or comment that I have engaged in.
I didn't say that you engaged in unethical practices or comments. What I DID say is that we will never get a straight answer from you in response to some questions, that for to do otherwise is apparently against PayPal's ethical standards.
Translation: You don't lie. Instead you answer questions with statements that, while true, do not answer the questions that were asked. Example:
Question: On which continent can the city of Denver, CO be found?
Answer: Partly cloudy with a 60% chance of rain.
I can only speak to company policy on an issue and give a little background about why, but I can't force any member to accept the explanation offered.
We understand this and it seems to confirm what I said in my last post.
I am a vocal critic of Paypal. I feel that multiple complaints for the same issues demonstrates a pattern that needs to be addressed. I still feel this way. However, this afternoon my account was credited by Paypal for the amount in question in an effort to resolve my complaint. My thanks to Paypaldom for pushing it through.
contact: [email protected]
posted on May 9, 2001 06:52:13 PM newyisgoodIf paypal believes that an account may be involved in fraud, why did they wait until $1300 was withdrawn from the bank account to make payments before freezing it?
I suppose it works like the airbags on a car, they don't deploy before the collision, but they do deploy as quickly as possible after the collision. Don't worry yisgood, I know you won't understand that. The analogy was for others.
posted on May 9, 2001 07:13:10 PM new
>>yisgood If paypal believes that an account may be involved in fraud, why did they wait until $1300 was withdrawn from the bank account to make payments before freezing it?
I suppose it works like the airbags on a car, they don't deploy before the collision, but they do deploy as quickly as possible after the collision. Don't worry yisgood, I know you won't understand that. The analogy was for others.<<
No, I understand your analogy. It just isn't appropriate. What you are trying to say (I think) is that the $1300 is what tripped the security. Then what Paypal should have done, is NOT withdraw the $1300 or put it back in the bank account it came from. If you want a real analogy, suppose someone cashes a check against your bank account. Your bank suspects that the check is forged. A real bank might not cash it. A real bank might try to contact you. Paypal would cash it, but not give the money to the guy with the check or to you. They would take it out of the account and then keep it themselves. They would wait until you called and emailed repeatedly, complained to the BBB, posted on Auctionwatch, faxed your bank info a half dozen times and then finally they return the money with no apology and no explanation. Then they would reply to your messages on AW insinuating that you were at fault.
I know the cheerleaders don't think there's anything wrong with this (as long as it doesn't happen to them.) So this is for others.
posted on May 9, 2001 08:00:09 PM new
In damons defense.....
He is an employee who is doing the best he can. He doesnt write the policy he is just trying provide answers to questions with the knowledge he has. And if he doesnt know he tries to find out. He as a customer service rep of a payment service does not need to know every intricate detail or interstate commerce, or every credit card and bank policy blah blah blah.
Yet some people seem to constantly try to nail him to a wall over these little intricate details.
The other payment services don't have reps down here practically every night defending against attackers.
I was a waitress for many years. Do I know the menu of the restaurants I work at??
Yes I do
If a customer asked me what is in a certain dish.........for the most part I know that too.
When they ask for ALL of the ingredients in that dish thats kinda pushing it and i'll try to answer with what I know. And ask the chef on some things I don't
Then when a customer starts nailing me and ask how many calories each dish has it gets to a point where I gotta go take care of other customers.
Then when that same customer starts asking what if he took out this ingredient how many calories it will have after I really gotta move on and take care of the dozens of other customers.
I am just the waitress afterall. I don't have to know every friggin ingredient and calorie count to make myself a good waitress.
So I think we should lighten up on the customer service rep a little and give Damon a break.
I would invite you to read a certain book---it is called "The Cluetrain Manifesto". It will give you a far better idea of what I am trying to accomplish and it will also show that I have nothing to gain by being dishonest to our users.
I look at interacting with our users as an opportunity to close feedback loops quickly and to get their concerns addressed. I even take note of the comments by detractors of our service, as it is a potential barrier to more people using the service.
As I have stated in the past, I can give you the honest answer on any item (which I do), but the interpretation is entirely up to the person reading it.
Many of the payment services don't have as many users as we add in a single day. That could also explain the sheer volume of customer traffic on concerns and issues that come to light.
