posted on February 15, 2003 10:00:25 PM new
I'm just wondering Reamond - As you look at the pictures from all over the world of protests - do you still stand by your les that 1million stance?
posted on February 15, 2003 10:59:25 PM new
I don't know what the count was for today. We had planned on having ours today along with everyone else. But, it won't be until tomorrow, because of the Chinese New Year Parade. That's a big thing in San Francisco. So we compromised. The parade on Sat and the protest on Sun. I hope we beat the 200,000 that we had last time.
posted on February 15, 2003 11:15:12 PM new
I think it's pretty much impossible to get a total. You woulld have to get police from every city across the world to report their estimates. I think that there has definately been a statement made. I think that it's obvious that the world community is not in favor of this action and that was the point. Far from a dud, a call for peace on on woldwide front was the lead story on every news station tonight. That's hardly what one would call a dud.
posted on February 15, 2003 11:27:19 PM new
IMG SRC="http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/neonmania/empty.jpg"
[ edited by neonmania on Feb 15, 2003 11:32 PM ]
I give up! I've triede quotes, no quotes, brackets, no brackets, even shook a chicken foot at this monitor and I can't get this image to show.
[ edited by neonmania on Feb 15, 2003 11:33 PM ]
posted on February 16, 2003 12:44:23 AM new
[img$]http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/neonmania/empty.jpg[/img$] (take out the $ signs)
I agree with neomania, there was certainly a statement made. And that is, Bush is going against the world community and against the wishes of many (if not most) Americans.
posted on February 16, 2003 01:58:13 AM new
The majority of Americans support Bush and they endorsed him in the mid-terms elections overwhelming electing republicans to Congress.
The majority of the world also supports the US position towards Iraq. France, Germany and russia are only against the overthrow of Hussein because they have huge oil and service contracts with Iraq. So we have the anarchists, communists and nuts allied with lucrative contractors of Germany, France, and Russia against the vast majority of the rational people of the world. Guess who wins ?
The "world wide peace" movement is begging and scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Making headlines and a lead-in on the news is just as easy for a failure as it is for a success. The same people protesting were at the world bank protests and made headlines too, but headlines is all they made, they failed to make a diference because they are wrong and/or they do not believe in democracy.
posted on February 16, 2003 02:22:15 AM new
IT WAS A MAJOR FLOP !!! In a world of billions of people, perhaps as many as 1 million show up. The people didn't show up because their cause is wrong. The vast majority that did show up would riot or rally anytime against America for any reason.
Organizers of the New York rally, who had hoped for 100,000 people, estimated the crowd at anywhere from 375,000 to 500,000. NYPD Commissioner Raymond Kelly said about 100,000 people were in the crowd, which stretched 20 blocks deep and spanned three avenues
And around the world including many in the capitols of America's traditional allies similar rallies drew well over a million people in protest of possible U.S. military action against Iraq
posted on February 16, 2003 06:49:39 AM new
Taken from AP this morning:
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Iraq on Sunday gloated over the global outpouring of opposition to the U.S. threat of attack, saying anti-war demonstrations in dozens of countries signaled an Iraqi victory and "the defeat and isolation of America."
"These demonstrations expressed in their spirit, meaning and slogans the decisive Iraqi victory and the defeat and isolation of America," Al-Jumhuriya said in a commentary.
Yep, the US protesters should be real proud of themselves for giving support/backing to someone like Saddam and what he stands for over their own governments attempt to disarm him. Not.
posted on February 16, 2003 07:31:05 AM new
And from Reamond's article -
"In the recording, Osama bin Laden pledges to maintain the fight against Americans in the world calling on Islamic nations to defeat the Americans," Al Hayat said.
It follows another audio tape broadcast last week by Qatar's al Jazeera television network in which the Saudi-born militant called on Muslims to use suicide attacks and bombings to prevent a U.S. war on Iraq.
The recordings coincide with a state of high alert in the United States and its ally Britain who said they had concrete information that al Qaeda was planning a slew of attacks.
Yes, we were put on high alert and many made fun of the Bush administration for doing so. "Their just trying to scare us - This is what they do when they polls are going down." BS!!! This is your government doing it's best to warn you about the dangers we face by this group of anti-American Muslims. To try and make you aware of what plans they have for you, your country, your economy.
Qaeda attacks have in the past followed messages by bin Laden and Jazeera's Tuesday broadcast of its tape heightened fears of an imminent strike.
In the new recording, Al Hayat said the Qaeda leader, Washington's key suspect in the worst attacks on U.S. soil since World War II, praised the September 11, 2001, strikes and said they proved that Muslims could defeat America.
"The September 11 attackers destroyed the idols of infidel America and rubbed the nose of the United States in the dirt," the newspaper quoted bin Laden as saying.
"They proved that it (the United States) could be defeated and humiliated," he added. "Oh Muslims, do not fear America because we have defeated them repeatedly and they are the most cowardly of people when you meet them face to face." They have defeated us? Is that how they've taken our lack of dealing with what they've attack [of ours] in the past? Are we cowardly? That's obviously how they see us.
It also quoted unnamed Islamists saying bin Laden had made the recording to clarify the Qaeda's position on Iraq after the Jazeera broadcast which the United States said proved the Saudi militant and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein were in partnership.
Analysts have said the tape played into U.S. hands because it showed bin Laden and Saddam both wanted to fight the United States, even if they have disparate political agendas.
So, YES, Reamond....I 100% agree.
Look who they're supporting.
__________________________
Those who demonstrate against our country's decision that Saddam must be disarmed and removed, are choosing sides. Their country vs. these Muslims who want to destroy our country and what it stands for.
And listen to the cheers from those here who are so very proud of how many are opposed to their own country disarming and removing such a dictator. How proud they are in themselves and their support of people who support not disarming/removing him. Sure, let's wait until he and bin Laden have the ways and means to REALLY use WOMD on us. Then they will cry out..."Why wasn't our country doing more to protect us? - Why didn't our country do something about this before it happened? They KNEW this was coming and did nothing." Just like they did after 9-11. It will be too late by then.
I hope the Bush administration continues to be strong in it's position that we MUST keep these weapons out of the hands of those like bin Laden...Saddam. And I would be supporting ANY president, be they rep, dem, or third party, who also felt this was necessary.
posted on February 16, 2003 08:32:25 AM new
There were 500 people at the anti-war rally in our city according to the news. That is out of a metropolitan population of about 500,000. Like I say, it was a DUD.
(Of course, the cameraman was panning in and out of the "crowd", trying to make it "look" like more people.)
posted on February 16, 2003 09:29:09 AM new
Below is the article that I found on ABC news.
The fact is that the average citizen can deconstruct propaganda when he or she has access to even a minimum of objective information and begins to be concerned enough to pay attention. It's not that difficult. Censorship and propaganda failed with the Soviet Union and it will also fail with our government if it seeks to fall to those depths. Rule by illusion and delusion will fail.
(AP Photo) Millions Worldwide Rally Against Iraq War
Millions Worldwide, Including Hundreds of Thousands in U.S., Protest Against War
LONDON Feb. 16 —
Millions of protesters many of them marching in the capitals of America's traditional allies demonstrated Saturday against possible U.S. plans to attack Iraq.
The protests that started Friday in Australia continued through the weekend with a massive Sunday demonstration of more than 100,000 people in Sydney. The protests were the biggest in Australia since the Vietnam War three decades ago.
In a global outpouring of anti-war sentiment, Rome claimed the biggest turnout 1 million according to police, while organizers claimed three times that figure.
In London, at least 750,000 people demonstrated in what police called the city's largest demonstration ever. In Spain, several million people turned out at anti-war rallies in about 55 cities and towns across the country, with more than 500,000 each attending rallies in Madrid and Barcelona.
Spanish police gauged the Madrid turnout at 660,000. Organizers claimed nearly 2 million people gathered across the nation in one of the biggest demonstrations since the 1975 death of dictator Gen. Francisco Franco.
More than 70,000 people marched in Amsterdam in the largest Netherlands demonstration since anti-nuclear rallies of the 1980s.
Berlin had up to half-a-million people on the streets, and Paris was estimated to have had about 100,000.
In New York, rally organizers estimated the crowd at up to 500,000 people. City police provided no estimate of the crowd, which stretched 20 blocks deep and two blocks wide.
"Peace! Peace! Peace!" Archbishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa said while leading an ecumenical service near U.N. headquarters. "Let America listen to the rest of the world and the rest of the world is saying, 'Give the inspectors time.'"
In Los Angeles, thousands of chanting marchers filled Hollywood Boulevard from curb to curb for four blocks. Organizers estimated the crowd at 100,000, although police put it at 30,000.
London's marchers hoped in the words of keynote speaker the Rev. Jesse Jackson to "turn up the heat" on Prime Minister Tony Blair, President Bush's staunchest European ally for his tough Iraq policy.
Rome protesters showed their disagreement with Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's support for Bush, while demonstrators in Paris and Berlin backed the skeptical stances of their governments.
"What I would say to Mr. Blair is stop toadying up to the Americans and listen to your own people, us, for once," said Elsie Hinks, 77, who marched in London with her husband, Sidney, a retired Church of England priest.
Tommaso Palladini, 56, who traveled from Milan to Rome, said, "You don't fight terrorism with a preventive war. You fight terrorism by creating more justice in the world."
Several dozen marchers from Genoa held up pictures of Iraqi artists.
"We're carrying these photos to show the other face of the Iraqi people that the TV doesn't show," said Giovanna Marenzana, 38.
Some leaders in German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's government participated in the Berlin protest, which turned the tree-lined boulevard between the Brandenburg Gate and the 19th-century Victory Column into a sea of banners, balloons emblazoned with "No war in Iraq" and demonstrators swaying to live music. Police estimated the crowd at between 300,000 and 500,000.
"We Germans in particular have a duty to do everything to ensure that war above all a war of aggression never again becomes a legitimate means of policy," shouted Friedrich Schorlemmer, a Lutheran pastor and former East German pro-democracy activist.
In the Paris crowd at the Place Denfert-Rochereau, a large American flag bore the black inscription, "Leave us alone."
Gerald Lenoir, 41, of Berkeley, Calif., came to Paris to support demonstrators.
"I am here to protest my government's aggression against Iraq," he said. "Iraq does not pose a security threat to the United States and there are no links with al-Qaida."
In southern France, about 10,000 people demonstrated in Toulouse against the United States, chanting: "They bomb, they exploit, they pollute, enough of this barbarity."
Police estimated that 60,000 turned out in Oslo, Norway; 50,000 in bitter cold in Brussels, Belgium; and about 35,000 in frigid Stockholm, Sweden.
About 80,000 marched in Dublin, Irish police said. Crowds were estimated at 60,000 in Seville, Spain; 40,000 in Bern, Switzerland; 30,000 in Glasgow, Scotland; 25,000 in Copenhagen, Denmark; 15,000 in Vienna, Austria; more than 20,000 in Montreal and 15,000 in Toronto; 5,000 in Cape Town and 4,000 in Johannesburg in South Africa; 5,000 in Tokyo; and 2,000 in Dhaka, Bangladesh.
"War is not a solution, war is a problem," Czech philosopher Erazim Kohak told about 500 people in Prague, the Czech Republic.
In Mexico City, as many as 10,000 people including Nobel Peace Prize laureate Rigoberta Menchu snarled traffic for blocks before rallying near the heavily guarded U.S. Embassy. Demonstrators beat drums, clutched white balloons and waved handmade signs saying, "War No, Peace Yes."
In Baghdad, tens of thousands of Iraqis, many carrying Kalashnikov assault rifles, demonstrated to support leader Saddam Hussein and denounce the United States.
"Our swords are out of their sheaths, ready for battle," read one of hundreds of banners carried by marchers along Palestine Street, a broad Baghdad avenue.
In Damascus, the capital of neighboring Syria, an estimated 200,000 protesters chanted anti-U.S. and anti-Israeli slogans while marching to the People's Assembly.
Najjah Attar, a former Syrian cabinet minister, accused Washington of attempting to change the region's map.
"The U.S. wants to encroach upon our own norms, concepts and principles," she said in Damascus. "They are reminding us of the Nazi and fascist times."
An estimated 2,000 Israelis and Palestinians marched together against war in Tel Aviv on Saturday night.
In Ukraine, some 2,000 people rallied in snowy Kiev's central square. Anti-globalists led a peaceful "Rock Against War" protest joined by communists, socialists, Kurds and pacifists.
In divided Cyprus, about 500 Greeks and Turks braved heavy rain to briefly block a British air base runway.
Several thousand protesters in Athens, Greece, unfurled a giant banner across the wall of the Acropolis "NATO, U.S. and EU equals War" before heading toward the U.S. Embassy.
U.S. Ambassador Thomas Miller said the Greek protesters' indignation was misplaced.
"They should be demonstrating outside the Iraqi embassy," he said before the march.
About 900 Puerto Ricans chanted anti-war slogans against the possible invasion of Iraq. One man waved a U.S. flag on which the stars were replaced with skulls.
In Brazil, President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva began efforts to unite South American nations against a possible U.S.-led attack on Iraq. Police estimated 1,500 marchers.
posted on February 16, 2003 09:41:39 AM new
Propaganda? Their threats, their promises for what lies in store for the US, straight from the terrorists own mouths....and some still consider it propaganda. how very sad.
Yep, if those on the left keep this up....it WILL be a long time before you see a democratic president in the White House. It's my belief that unless America see's a democrat that is willing to act pro-actively against the terrorists.....they won't be elected.
posted on February 16, 2003 09:41:41 AM new
Linda, your posts are sounding more and more hysterical. You're really afraid aren't you? You're thinking more with fear than sence.
posted on February 16, 2003 09:49:42 AM new
chococake - Hysterical No.
It's just that you pro-Saddam people don't like reading how and why most American's are supporting Bush in this decision to force the disarment of Iraq and removal of Saddam.
posted on February 16, 2003 10:00:37 AM new
"It's just that you pro-Saddam people don't like reading how and why most American's are supporting Bush"
I haven't read a single post on this board that I would call "pro-Saddam". This is another example of the Bushist "with us or against us" mindset. The ideology of the right it seems MUST have an enemy. Anyone who doesn't completely agree with it's positions is by definition an enemy. Black and white only, no grey allowed. There's thought control for you. Orwell was right.
posted on February 16, 2003 10:10:25 AM new
Always twisting Linda! No not pro Saddam. But, I think for right now just keep up inspections and keep him under control. I would like to see us take all this aggression time and money away from him and use it to get Osama bin Laden.
You and the Bush gang keep trying to tie them together. That may be true, however , there is no real proof. So, you get OBL first, who has proven to be the threat via 9/11. He is the mastermind! If there is a tie between them, I think it would be easy to prove it then. Saddam should be next.
We know where Saddam is, but we have no idea where OBL is. Is that another reason we're going after him, just easier, and OBL has already made us look inept?
posted on February 16, 2003 10:15:19 AM new
A lot of the people in this movement are either dupes of the Communists or are outright Communists themselves.
Here are some illuminating URL's:
http://www.lrp-cofi.org/PR/antiwarPR38.html
http://www.lrp-cofi.org/statements/Iraq200212.html
------------------------------------------
League for the Revolutionary Party (LRP)
Communist Organization for the Fourth International (COFI)
Homepage for above:
http://www.lrp-cofi.org/
---------------------------------------------
From their website:
"Revolutionary socialists are working-class internationalists. This means not only fighting against capitalism in general, but imperialist oppression of other peoples. It is our duty to defend the Iraqi people."
"Socialist Revolution is the Only Solution!"
---------------------------------------------
Wonder where these groups get their money?
Hmmmmmmmm.....
posted on February 16, 2003 10:35:46 AM new
profe - I understand there is a large 'range' of those who are against this war. From the pacifists who wouldn't support any war at any time, to those who hold the position that THIS particular war is wrong. There are also those who think we shouldn't be acting in a pre-empative manner - they haven't done anything to us so we have no right. It's not black and white to me. I read and understand the positions of those in disagreement with me.
But it really doesn't matter, imo, if you are allowing the terrorist to become stronger in their promised future for our country...then, yes, it's my position you are acting in Saddams best interest, rather than ours and therefore, are pro-Saddam.
The vote of 15-0 shows the world, not just the US, believes Saddam has to to disarm. They ALL agree on that. The debate is what to do now that Saddam, once again, is not doing so. My position is he had his last chance, after 12 years of playing games [attempts to find ways of negotiating with him] that haven't worked. You and other's here disagree? Your right.
posted on February 16, 2003 10:50:03 AM new
::Propaganda? Their threats, their promises for what lies in store for the US, straight from the terrorists own mouths....and some still consider it propaganda. how very sad. ::
Linda - Bin Laden and Saddam are not the same people. They do not speak for each other. Their don't even like each other. If your rationale for attacking Iraq is the words of Bin Laden... you've been worked my friend.
posted on February 16, 2003 10:54:50 AM new
Yes, bones, something the protesters won't acknowledge...who's running the show.
That may be true, however , there is no real proof. To me, the proof is in the statements the terrorists [and of those who support them] themselves make. You read binLaden's last comments. He doesn't care they don't think alike in some areas. He has professed his support of Saddam and has called on ALL Muslims to unite. ONLY because they believe it's the Muslims against all who are Muslims.
So, you get OBL first, who has proven to be the threat via 9/11. We're trying...you don't think that having his head would be the best thing for the political career of Bush?
If there is a tie between them, I think it would be easy to prove it then. Again, do you not believe Bin Laden himself? He supports Saddam. A-Q have been seen in Iraq. Many reports on that. Matter of fact, this past week Sad Saddam [Saddam's son] was reported as being in Iraq. What some do not appear to understand is the government can't give up information, without jepordizing our sources and putting our military men in harm's way. Might not matter to you, but it does to many Americans. Powell tried to give some proof to those who questioned. See the results. There are just those who will never believe what their government says. Period. For any reason.
posted on February 16, 2003 11:06:07 AM newhttp://www.lrp-cofi.org/PR/antiwarPR38.html http://www.lrp-cofi.org/statements/Iraq200212.html
------------------------------------------
League for the Revolutionary Party (LRP)
Communist Organization for the Fourth International (COFI)
Homepage for above:
http://www.lrp-cofi.org/
---------------------------------------------
From their website:
"Revolutionary socialists are working-class internationalists. This means not only fighting against capitalism in general, but imperialist oppression of other peoples. It is our duty to defend the Iraqi people."
bones - to make URLs clickable, just do this:
[url]thenTheURLhereNOspaces[/url$] and r4emove the $
__________
neonmania - It's not any ONE thing that I've read or heard. It's the combination of it all. I was interested in your answer to Reamond about what's happened in the Sudan. Are you ignoring what's really going on around the world by terrorists? I just don't want to sit and wait until they strike again....to do something. Stop them at the pass..if at all possible.
posted on February 16, 2003 11:20:08 AM new
:: I was interested in your answer to Reamond about what's happened in the Sudan. ::
I've finally learned not to bother with Reamond. The brick wall is leaving marks on my head.
::Are you ignoring what's really going on around the world by terrorists? ::
No i'm not, I am learning however that you are spreading the word terrorist aound like mayonaise at a picnic. Anything wrong is "terrorist". "Terrorists" are not at fault in Sudan, a Genocidal governement that has chosen to kill people rather than correct it's shortfalls is and I find it appaling.
::I just don't want to sit and wait until they strike again::
If you are alking about Bin Laden, we are not doing squat right now to deal with that issue. Wait, let me correct myself, we are doing a great deal to further his cause.
If you are talking about Saddam, he hasn't done anything is 12 years, why the sudden urgency except to cover the fact that Bush has failed miserable at finding and stopping Bin Laden and is failing miserably at solving homefront problem.
posted on February 16, 2003 12:40:04 PM new
bones - You're welcome.
The brick wall is leaving marks on my head. I'm sure many here feel the same way about me. It doen't matter. We each have our own convictions on issues that are most important to us. All of us.
I have a tremendous amount of respect for Reamond. He is very much anti-Bush, anti-fanatical religious, probably anti any religion. [If I'm wrong he'll correct me] But to me he is open minded and can see how important it is for the US to deal with the terrorists. I agree with 100% of his views on this issue. I admire him because he is one of the few who can put aside political leanings and state his position on the issue, rather than the person.
____________
Not doing squat - I think that's a very unfair statement. Because of the position Bush took, the world has been become more aware of how terrorism is working. 9-11 is what opened our eyes to WHO is behind this destroy America think. And to me, it is always those of the Muslim faith. Many countries have been arresting known terrorists. [Followers of bin Laden included]. Many countries are now offering/sharing intellegence on the terrorists activities. And it's my belief that the information our President is receiving is the reason he's made this decision. Stop Saddam before he can sell weapons to the terrorist.
And as far as the fact that there was an attempt on the life of President Bush Sr., as an American I believe we should have acted on that attempt immediately. An attempt to kill any of our President's should be taken as an act of war by our country. And some wonder why the terrorists see American's as weak.
posted on February 16, 2003 12:42:11 PM new
Linda, BinLaden did not say he supported Saddam. He said he supported the Muslims of Iraq. Totaly different thing. He is using this war talk to further his own agenda. He is using our push to war to get the more moderate Muslims [he hopes] to fight against us so that he and his ilk can take over Iraq instead of us. They would like to see Iraq like Afghanastin is.Not was ..is.... The only place in Afghanistan where we have any hold is Kabul...everywhere else the women are still covered and still get beatings on the streets, there are still terrorist strongholds . Why don't we finish up in Afghanistan? BinLaden hates Saddam and would not help him...only the Muslim people.
We need to go after the terrorists...not Saddam..not right now.
From what BinLaden said about becoming a martyr in the terrorist war I believe he must be dying from his kidney disease so to further his cause and further inflame the Muslim world he will try to go out in a blaze of "glory" for all to see. We need to try to keep him from doing that.We need to get him...NOW not later.
I grow weary of you calling anyone that does not think like you pro-Saddam. That is the furthest thing from the truth there is. I have lost very much respect for your posts from this name calling you have started doing. You have really changed lately.I am sorry to see it.
I am not anti-American,I might be anti a lot of things but not America.Not our troops.
I am not pro-Saddam. Again..pro many things but NEVER Saddam.
posted on February 16, 2003 01:02:47 PM new
>I'll stand by my figures of less than 1 million world wide.
You are entitled to any opinion that you like, up to and including that those who turned out were FOR the War, not against it!
>IT WAS A MAJOR FLOP !!! In a world of billions of people, perhaps as many as 1 million show up
Actually, even CNN and FoxNews reproted well over a million. In fact, while it may not have made the ten million mark this time, it came awfully close to it. Historically, it is the largest world-wide protest against War in written history!
Of course, if you want to go on telling yourself that no one bothered to show up, no one here is going to try to change your mind about it.
posted on February 16, 2003 01:15:13 PM new
rawbunzel - I really don't care if you don't respect me because of my beliefs or how I view the actions of those who want to wait until the terrorists have a stronger hold in the world. I don't have a lot of respect for people I view are following communists/stalinists/marxists protest organizers either. Does that mean they can't speak?
You see a change in me? What you see is me being more verbal in my support of this administration and their reasons for what they're doing. I'm very much disagree with the opinions of people who support the continuation of regimes like Saddams against their own country's actions. I have that right.
"Oh Muslims, do not fear America because we have defeated them repeatedly and they are the most cowardly of people when you meet them face to face."
posted on February 16, 2003 01:22:10 PM new
It's not your beliefs Linda, it's your name calling. I like the exchage of beliefs...I abhor name calling.
How would you like it if I called you a "blood thirsty war-mongering Nazi" ? [not how I feel by the way..just an example] You wouldn't like it because you are not those things. The people here who speak against your view are not pro-Saddam. That is most insulting and might I add downright mean spirited.
