posted on February 17, 2003 03:38:40 PM new
woaw sorry that comment Helen got me upset. And most guys that came home from there would probably disagree with what you said...
NOT TRUE? Where were you??
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on February 17, 2003 03:39:31 PM new
The leader of the "peace" rally in England has now threatened VIOLENCE unless Tony Blair reverses his position on Iraq.
posted on February 17, 2003 03:45:47 PM new
NTS - I didn't know. Please give him a HUGE thank you of gratitude from my family. [and a hug too, if you don't mind ]
-------
Yep, that's the way those 'peaceful' things usually end up.
posted on February 17, 2003 03:49:59 PM new
Linda, he's not one to talk about it much, but that, he did. He was Air Force.
He's at work now, and I wouldn't dare tell him what goes on (was said ) here...ya know he's not a hot tempered guy, but I beleive if he heard that said, he'd have a word or thousand to say..
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on February 17, 2003 03:54:02 PM new
NearTheSea,
Give him a big thanks for me too. but not the hug. I'm not a real huggy kind of guy.
Amen,
Reverend Colin
posted on February 17, 2003 04:42:04 PM new
I'm still shaking my head over this thread.
I think it's appalling. Does your government simply see your troups as expendible human fodder? Why isn't there more outrage in your country?
Many people here didn't understand my sense of outrage at the complete indifference by your government when Canadian soldiers were killed by American soldiers last year. The thought briefly crossed my mind then that perhaps it was because your government felt the same indifference to casualties among your own troups. Now I am seriously wondering if that is true.
posted on February 17, 2003 04:54:51 PM new
"people here didn't understand my sense of outrage at the complete indifference by your government when Canadian soldiers were killed by American soldiers last year"
I wasn't on the board when this happened but I know the story.
It was a horrible thing to say the least.
We Americans were outraged too.
Unfortunately our military looked for a fall guy and blamed everything on the pilots, if I remember correctly.
It was a mistake plain and simple, a screw up with spotting instrumentation, computers or whatever it was. A horrible mistake.
I can't believe the people on this board would not be consoling and understanding to your outrage. But seeing some of your posts I wonder just how you represented your outrage
Amen,
Reverend Colin
posted on February 17, 2003 05:13:33 PM new
Colin,
Of course mistakes happen and when they do and have terrible consequences, one would like to know that lessons will be learned from those mistakes and someone with the power to do so will care enough to try to reduce the possibility of that same mistake happening again. At least, in that way, those deaths may not have been completely in vain.
Your President (your Commander in Chief) completely ignored the killings and made no mention of them at all publicly in any of several press conferences he participated in that day.
It created a big uproar here in Canada with front page headlines and a pointed public speech by our deputy prime minister before your President even bothered to express his condolences some days later.
As I said then, your President's inexcusable behavior would have a damaging effect on the relationship between our two countries, and it has.
posted on February 17, 2003 05:20:37 PM new
I've heard the tape of the pilots during the accidental bombings, and I believe that the pilots were a little trigger-happy. True, they were probably fatigued and hopped-up on speed, but they should've waited for permission before dropping the bombs. I think the pilots were at least partially at fault.
What punishment do they deserve? I don't know. 4 Canadians were killed because of a stupid mistake. If the pilots are found guilty, I would let Canadians choose how to sentence them.
posted on February 17, 2003 05:20:55 PM new
Irene,
I've very sorry to hear that. I was under the impression he made a statement and apoligy that very day.
Amen,
Reverend Colin
posted on February 17, 2003 05:31:40 PM new
I don't think Canadians were looking for an apology, but were shocked when he didn't even bother to express condolences to the families of those who died.
posted on February 17, 2003 08:43:20 PM new
Valleygirl
<quote>
"Regardless of how one feels about pending war, we must support our military personnel. No more Vietman era of spitting on returning soldiers."
<end quote>
This was never reported by a reliable news source. No one in America held soldiers responsible for the Vietnam War, just as those opposed to war now will not find soldiers sent to Iraq responsible for that war.
Helen
I've always know Helen lived in a dream world. I lived the '60's, I saw it. Many people held soldiers responsible. Where have you been? Obviously not watching the shows on the '60's whereby soldiers were accosted in airports, bars, on the streets. They didn't dare wear their uniforms. And if you were alive then, then the dope you used caused you to see a different world.
My brother and my cousin were spit upon, shouted at, called child killers. Don't you DARE say it didn't happen.
posted on February 17, 2003 09:31:53 PM new
Valleygirl
Actually, I don't live in a dream world and it's unfair and silly of you to accuse me of living through the 60's on dope.
I was here during the 60's and 70's and I did not see what you describe. Since it wasn't reported in the newspaper or media you certainly should be able to understand my surprise to see your statement that soldiers returning from Vietnam were spat upon. Never in my life have I seen another human being spit on another human being or spit on anything as a matter of fact..
I am aware that the Vietnam vets were not appreciated as they should have been and I know that they had to struggle to achieve the rights, medical and financial assistance that they deserved. I remember that no celebration or official recognition was held upon their return. I remember and I'm sorry about that.
But widespread spitting behavior? I find that very hard to believe. Since you were not here to ask, I searched and could not find a reliable source to verify your remark. I did find articles stating that it was a myth that people were spitting on vets. One person spitting on another person is rare. To exaggerate this rare occurance to the extent that you have is unbelievable.
posted on February 17, 2003 09:51:09 PM new
Helen
I remember reading it more than once in my newspaper. What city did you live in? Just because YOU can't find anything on the net doesn't mean it wasn't reported.
Try metacrawler
posted on February 17, 2003 11:15:34 PM new
Helen, it may well be that if you live in a small town in, say, the Midwest, that you never saw or heard of folks spitting on returning soldiers. But believe me, it did happen. People who were against that war, and who were fristrated & angry with the government for forcing our precense there, took their anger out on the soldiers that were returning home. Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on February 17, 2003 11:22:09 PM new
It was not rare and these vietnam vets were treated horribly. I repeat myself: I witnessed it first hand. It was reported widely. Did you see "Fourth of July" with Tom Cruise? What about "Coming Home"? My God, there are so many books and movies written from personal experiences that I cannot name them all. Maybe someone else can contribute a few more.
Your purpose on this board is to antagonize and insult. And I suppose that is your pleasure. Personally my life is too short to waste it on the likes of you.
posted on February 17, 2003 11:46:34 PM new
I have no knowledge of what happened but obviously some people do believe the spitting was a myth. There was actually a book published called The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam
posted on February 17, 2003 11:55:35 PM new
." And I don't give a (expletive deleted) what some Harvard professor says, I was spit on by 16-17 year old kids. Many of my friends endured worse. I was called "Nazi" and "baby killer." I'm none of those things and neither are most veterans.
- Forrest Brandt <http://www.war-stories.com/wall-survey.htm>http://www.war-stories.com/wall-survey.htm
“Nobody appreciates what all went on,” Cannon said. “It wasn’t that (all of) the soldiers agreed with the war. It was the fact that they went in and did their duty.”
Cannon enlisted in the Air Force just 10 days after graduating from high school. He was stationed at Clarke Air Base in the Philippines for 17 months beginning in June 1967. Upon returning to the states, he was spit on three times while riding cable cars in San Francisco simply because he was in uniform.
Today, 35 years later, the story is much different. Americans are quick to publicly thank members of the military and shake their hands for their service to the country.
“Nobody appreciates what all went on,” Cannon said. “It wasn’t that (all of) the soldiers agreed with the war. It was the fact that they went in and did their duty.”
Cannon enlisted in the Air Force just 10 days after graduating from high school. He was stationed at Clarke Air Base in the Philippines for 17 months beginning in June 1967. Upon returning to the states, he was spit on three times while riding cable cars in San Francisco simply because he was in uniform.
Today, 35 years later, the story is much different. Americans are quick to publicly thank members of the military and shake their hands for their service to the country.
"This Nam vet also has phenomenal personal control. He can deal with ambushes from hell, comfort a fallen soldier's family, and then read in his hometown paper how Nam vets are baby killers, psychos, addicts, killers of innocent civilians."
The Lord gazed into the future and said, "He will also endure being vilified and spit on when he returns home, rejected and crucified by the very ones he fought for."
http://www.hack1966.com/vietnamvets.html
Richard, like many others, came home to people who spit on him and shouted ugly things at him. That night was a turning point for him. He walked a little straighter and, for the first time in years, was proud to have been a Vet. I'll never forget Ann Margaret for her graciousness and how much that small act of kindness meant to my husband. I now make it a point to say Thank You to every person I come across who served in our Armed Forces. Freedom does not come cheap and I am grateful for all those who have served their country.
The Truth:
This story is true.
We have confirmed it with both a spokesperson for Ann-Margret and a member of her family. Her web site receives hundreds of emails from veterans asking about the story as well as many emails from former soldiers who appreciated Ann-Margret's trips to Vietnam or Korea to entertain troops.
It's good to see a reporter do a fact check on those spitting-on-Vietnam-vet stories. But you missed some facts. Any soldier, particularly officers, who vengefully gave a spitter a "mouthful of bloody Chiclets" was in trouble himself. I got several lectures on that in the service. Thus, the lack of dead and crippled spitters does not disprove the spitting incidents. In addition, the spitting happened in airports not because the spitting is an "urban myth," but because that's about the only place, outside of military towns, that a serviceman in those days would wear his uniform.
Subject: My "Urban Myth" Experience
Re: "Press Box: Drooling on the Vietnam Vets"
From: Lt. Col. Conrad Crane
Date: Wed May 03
I have never been one to support urban myths, but I would like to illuminate the quote from me used in the article. I was indeed spat upon in my uniform. It happened near the Port Authority Bus Terminal in New York City during my plebe year. Plebes were required to wear their Dress Gray uniform on trips, and a scruffy-looking individual decided to use me to make a point. We had been warned this might happen by upper-class cadets who claimed to have had similar experiences, and while I cannot verify theirs, I can vouch for mine.
posted on February 18, 2003 12:56:20 AM new
>The Lord gazed into the future and said, "He will also endure being vilified and spit on when he returns home, rejected and crucified by the very ones he fought for."
posted on February 18, 2003 06:39:22 AM new
Thanks Irene for the links.
From Irene's link.
Several historians have found other inaccuracies — or at least overstatements — about Vietnam. One is the notion that Vietnam soldiers were routinely spit upon when returning from the war. Though the spitting stories have been widely told, they are likely nothing more than urban myth, says Jerry Lembcke, a Vietnam veteran and sociology professor at Holy Cross College, who recently wrote a book about the subject. In that book, The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and Vietnam, he writes that he couldn’t document a single case of a U.S. service member being spit on. “I actually thought I’d find some factual basis for this. But I have still not found a single piece of compelling evidence that it ever happened,” Lembcke says. Still, many who challenge Vietnam stereotypes believe that ideas about the war will be difficult to challenge, even with strong data. Jim Reckner, director of the Vietnam Center at Texas Tech University, says he’s been trying to modify Vietnam stereotypes for years, with little success.
Bunnicula, It surprises me that you are jumping on this bandwagon with Valleygirl, NearTheSea and Linda. I live in the suburbs of Washington D.C., where I was living when the Veterans of Vietnam were returning.
It doesn't surprise me that this myth was used by writers of fiction and movie producers.
posted on February 18, 2003 06:48:09 AM new
Irene - some people do believe the spitting was a myth. Yes, and that will never change. But those who actually witnessed it, or experienced it, don't need to find/read 'the truth'.
Some people don't believe we ever landed on the moon either. You think one might be able to convence the astronauts or their families they didn't? Of course not.
And Helen - bunni isn't on any 'band wagon'. Unlike you she can at least be objective enough to honestly express her life experiences without making everything and 'us' against 'them' issue.
posted on February 18, 2003 07:25:05 AM new
Helen,
Let me guess. It's about the Oil???
Always about the oil. It's the new war cry of the liberals. It seems that, no matter what happens, no matter what is found, this will be the battle cry.
This is from Sunday 16 Feb 2003 > World News:
http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/2003/02/16/news/world/world05.asp
"Meanwhile, Blix's inspection teams headed to a mineral water plant and to the al-Muthanna chemical weapons installation in the desert northwest of Baghdad, information ministry officials said. Inspectors there have been destroying artillery shells and neutralising four plastic containers filled with mustard gas."
I expect more intelligence information will be given to the UN inspection people if it can be done so, safely. I also expect more WOMD items to be found.
posted on February 18, 2003 07:58:05 AM newBunnicula, It surprises me that you are jumping on this bandwagon with Valleygirl, NearTheSea and Linda. I live in the suburbs of Washington D.C., where I was living when the Veterans of Vietnam were returning
Stating the truth isn't "jumping on the band wagon," Helen. Matter of fact, I remember seeing it happen while watching the evening news one night, during a story about returning soldiers. Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on February 18, 2003 08:21:48 AM new
The problem, colin, is that every country in the world has weapons and some of these countries have leaders more ruthless than Saddam.
I have to go out and shovel more snow. I'm getting cabin fever..
Take it easy!
Bunnicula...You may have seen the origin of the myth on television. In fact, it may have been staged. Even documentaries have directors.
]
he's not a hot tempered guy, but I beleive if he heard that said, he'd have a word or thousand to say..
