posted on February 23, 2003 05:52:23 AM new
This is not a case of furtive misuse of US benefits, it is a private donation funded effort to save the lives of terminally ill children wherever they may be. None of the blowhard fooferall applies here.
This child was critically ill and a window of opportunity presented to save her. The foundation which funds the effort took what steps were necessary to take advantage of the opportunity. Transplant organs don't last long, and not all organs work for every patient awaiting them. There are many more factors determining the chances of a compatible and successful transplant than simple blood type. For this one it was now or never, and there was not time for bureaucratic correctness.
Does anyone know whether the family is Catholic, and if so would that effect their decision whether to allow the girl's organ harvesting? Aside that question can anyone imagine their own reaction if asked to allow the taking of the organs of your own child who had just died due to gross error on the part of the people whom you had trusted to save her life?
posted on February 23, 2003 06:46:35 AM new
I suspect the family is Catholic, so I can see how that might be a factor in the family's reluctance to donate her organs.
Also, wouldn't most of her organs be damaged and/or compromised from the trauma of two surgeries and who knows what else her body was put through?
It's my understanding that the hospital originally offered to get a second opinion for the family in regards to brain activity or lack thereof, and then reneged on that offer and pronounced her dead which led to her being taken off life support. This is the same hospital that technically killed the girl because of their own negligence and lack of even the most basic care. Then the family is expected to allow the hospital to harvest her organs and butcher her body further? No way...
posted on February 23, 2003 07:52:56 AM new
Because the organs were probably damaged while the girl was on life support and because of the sensitive nature of the situation, I doubt that the parents were asked for permission to remove the second heart lung transplant.
If they were asked and refused, I can understand that. They must be devastated by overwhelming grief and anger.
Personally, I would have allowed the removal of the second heart lung if it could have been used to possibly save another life.
posted on February 23, 2003 08:45:37 AM new
::Where do you get that we "rule" the world? We have "interests" in international events just as any other country does. But if "we" actually ruled the world it would be a h&ll of a lot different than it is. ::
Because we do our best to do just that. We use money and trade issues to try to bend other countries to our will.
::You, as many others, wish to extract every last ounce of goodwill the people of America have, even when it is to the citizens' clear detriment. ::
How is it toit to the detriment of citizens of the US to perform surgery on a paying customer?
::You will attempt to shame Americans, but remain silent and effortless when it comes to taking to task the Mexican people and their government to improve their own lot. ::
That's a nice statement but when have we discussed my position regarding responsibilities of Mexico's government to it's people in order for to make it.
::You are quick to find fault with every position regarding the illegal aliens concerning their machinations in the US, but are silent about the corruption, greed, and total LACK of goodwill of the Mexican government and the people of Mexico. ::
Once again - nice bunch of assumption based on nothing but your own opinion of what my thoughts and positions may be. Do me a favor and ask how I feel about a subject BEFORE you judge my views next time.
:: If you want to preach, go to Mexico, they need it far worse than Americans do.::
Mexico needs many thing, but I don't think preachers in among them.
posted on February 23, 2003 08:56:34 AM new
::Where do you get that we "rule" the world? We have "interests" in international events just as any other country does. But if "we" actually ruled the world it would be a h&ll of a lot different than it is. ::
Because we do our best to do just that. We use money and trade issues to try to bend other countries to our will.
If this is the case, I suggest we start a war immediately with Canada.
They have the oil we need and a whole herd of organ donors.
Amen,
Freeorgans.com,
Reverend Colin
posted on February 23, 2003 09:04:57 AM new
::Neonmania, how do you know that none of the doctors that operated weren't Black? or Latino themselves? ::
I admittedly was being facisious in that statement. I was highlighting hoow rediculoous the outrage over an attempt to save a 17 year old girl using private funds was.
::Having lived in San Diego myself for over 10 years (not currently), you can see how illegal immigration does effect the economy and social infratructure of the area. ::
I live in San Diego now and have been in So Cal for 12 years. I'm curious as to how you feel immigration issues have negatively effected the creation one of the most expensive citites in California? (I'm not being facisious, I think it would be an interesting exchange.)
posted on February 23, 2003 09:29:12 AM new
:: It's not the people themselves that I worry about, it's what it is doing to our economy and society ::
Bones - Over the past 5 years or so I have made a number of friends in the latin community, I have to sy I feel that I have done nothing but benefit from the experience.
The family values that republicans insist we need more of. I have never seen them practiced more diligently than in the latino community. There is a genuine love and concern for the family unit . respect among the kids growing up for family and tradition and without doublt doubt more of a sense of loyalty and community than I have ever encountered outside of the latin community.
As for the economic impact it's a strange situation. I don't buy that they are "stealing americans job" I would say that in most cases, they are taking the jobs that americans don't want. I think the biggest indictment is that they are not spending money here in the US which is true, but there is a huge BUT in there. Most immigrants in the US are sending home huge chunks of their income to support family in Mexico. One of the top three sources of income for Mexico is money being sent home. There are goups (whose name eludes me right now) of immigrant businessmen and workers united by their home territories in Mexico that pool their money and resources to build new factories, help fund businesses and to give suppport to their home states to help alieviate the need from future emmigration.
I'm not niave, I don't believe that all immigrants are working for this common goal but I don't think that most of the public today knows that America is not the only one that wants to curb immigration. A lot of Mexicans want to also. Difference is that rather than building bigger fences, they are working to solve what is at the core of the problem.
posted on February 23, 2003 09:32:05 AM new
Easy enough Neonmaina... how many working class people San Diego County can now afford a decent home? Not many.
Reasons why...
1. Illegal Immigration gives employers a working class they do not have to pay a US living wage to.
2. Illegal Immigration in the area has brought about Barrio slums... San Ysidro, Barrio Logan, East San Diego...
3. Illegal Immigration has caused an imbalance of wages vs cost of living in the area... National City and South...
Not knowing where you live Neonmania, San Diego is a large County and the city while actually small has many suburban communities... I imagine you have taken the Trolley many times to the border... unless they have cleaned up alot of the area, that is a prime example of illegal immigration...
They live in that squalor because they can't afford to do better and cannot afford to complain.
Having worked around the Shipyards there from '92-'96 I have seen it. Prime Reason NASSCO could beat the union every time they tried to strike.
I lived in El Cajon and Chula Vista while living there...
Believe me all Hispanics that are citizens do not share the feelings that all Illegals should have rights.
...and hispanics are not the only Illegals that flock to San Diego... some Eastern Europeans were starting to arrive there.
posted on February 23, 2003 09:36:49 AM new
::I suspect the family is Catholic, so I can see how that might be a factor in the family's reluctance to donate her organs. ::
I think it's fine for a person to deny organ donation based on religious beliefs, HOWEVER, I think you forgo that right when you have accepted the organs of others..
There was no mention of viability of her organs only that her family refused to donate. It's not just heart and lungs we are talking about, you also have kidney, liver and corneas. That's a lot of lives that would have been saved.
But to bring up an earlier arguement - would they have been available only to aliens or would citizens have been elligible as well?
posted on February 23, 2003 10:03:49 AM new
::Easy enough Neonmaina... how many working class people San Diego County can now afford a decent home? Not many. ::
Very few but you cannot credit only immigration to that number - you also have to factor in massive loss of income due to cutbacks in the defense industry, technology, etc. There is a ovewhelming lack of touch with reality with builders today. The job market here is faultering and yet housing prices keep rising.
::1. Illegal Immigration gives employers a working class they do not have to pay a US living wage to. ::
They did a study last year and determined that a single parent in San Diego had to make $12.something an hour to live above the poverty level in San Diego. I have 15 years experience in my skilled field and can't find a job in this town that will pay me that. I have had to resort to freelancing, and ebaying to survive.
::2. Illegal Immigration in the area has brought about Barrio slums... San Ysidro, Barrio Logan, East San Diego...::
When did you leave? East county is exploading with housing starts. No arguements on Barrio Logan and San Ysidro although I think both will barely be recognizable in coming years. There are $750,000 homes being built just a stones throw away as we speak.
::3. Illegal Immigration has caused an imbalance of wages vs cost of living in the area... National City and South... ::
Although I am not going to deny that illegals are part of the problem, low wage military families and a faultering economy are also large contributing factors.
::Not knowing where you live Neonmania,::
The hell that is Downtown
:: I imagine you have taken the Trolley many times to the border... unless they have cleaned up alot of the area, that is a prime example of illegal immigration...
They live in that squalor because they can't afford to do better and cannot afford to complain. ::
A lot of that area is being cleaned up. It's not great yet, it's going to take a lot of work but alot of the effort that I see effort on the part of the residents themselves.
:: Believe me all Hispanics that are citizens do not share the feelings that all Illegals should have rights. ::
I think that there should be basic human rights given to all people, not just citizens. My problem with the US's attitude toward immigration from Mexico is that many of our industries take advantage of the problem on both ends of the spectrum. In order to keep pricing down to a bargain oriented nation. Americans benefit from the depressed econmy of Mexico and then complain when Mexicans come here for relief.
:: ...and hispanics are not the only Illegals that flock to San Diego... some Eastern Europeans were starting to arrive there. ::
Yes, there is a huge Caldean community here as well, primarily in the north county.
posted on February 23, 2003 10:14:19 AM new
neonmania, you state,
I think it's fine for a person to deny organ donation based on religious beliefs, HOWEVER, I think you forgo that right when you have accepted the organs of others..
Organs become yours when they are implanted in your body. The right that you speak of transfers with the organ.
[b]The Pope said transplants were "a great step forward in science's service of man" and called organ donation "a genuine act of love." He stressed, however, that the commercial exploitation of organs was not acceptable. Neither was "discrimination," on any grounds other than medical, in decisions on who should be allocated available organs.
The Pope also warned that organs should only be removed when the donor was "certainly dead," and he defined this as the point at which there was a "complete and irreversible cessation of all brain activity."[/b]
I'm going out, and yes! I do have organ donor on my licence, but I doubt that they would want them
edited cuz screw it can link, can't bold
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
[ edited by NearTheSea on Feb 23, 2003 10:24 AM ]
posted on February 23, 2003 10:28:58 AM new
:: Organs become yours when they are implanted in your body. The right that you speak of transfers with the organ.::
I'm speaking of the moral right to make the decision to agree or disagree with organ transpalnt. If you agree with it enough to benefit by it then you should also agree with it enough to allow others to as well.
[ edited by neonmania on Feb 23, 2003 10:35 AM ]
posted on February 23, 2003 10:42:21 AM new
You have the right to make that decision based on your concept of morality and your religious beliefs and any other mitigating circumstances that affect your decision.
posted on February 23, 2003 12:26:37 PM new
Well what is the Catholic status of the organs that were removed from the girl ?
This is not a situation of a paying patient coming from a foreign land to get medical care. We allow paying foreigners in all the time for medical care.
They were illegals. People can get visas for medical treatment in the US very easy.
What these aliens did was cut in line for donated organs and to be US citizens.
They paid $5000 to a "coyote" to illegally cross the border. They could have flown her and her mother several times to any hospital in the US for $5000.
This is not a situation of poor immigrants crossing for a better life. It is a situation of a family cutting in line for life saving services and citizenship. With $5000 to pay a "coyote", they were not destitute hispanics. You can support pretty well for several years a family of 4 in Mexico for $5000. The workers at Mexico's atuo plants barely get $2000 a year.
With the number of people that need transplants and die daily for lack of organs, I would estimate that there were several other US citizens that could have used the organs this girl took.
Being on life support will nto harm the organs either. All donors are on life support before organ extraction. They will not accept organs from DOA patients unless artificial heart and respirations have been applied.
posted on February 23, 2003 01:14:01 PM new
::This is not a situation of poor immigrants crossing for a better life. ::
I never stated that this family came across for a better life. I said they did what any parent would do and came across to save their daughters life.
::It is a situation of a family cutting in line for life saving services and citizenship. ::
1 She waited in that line for three years to get the incorrect organs.
2 We don't know tha they have applied for citizen ship, they may have applied for residency instead.
::With $5000 to pay a "coyote", they were not destitute hispanics.::
Do you know how they got that money? I don't and I'm not assuming their status, especially since if they are an affluent family it would be easier and much less expensive to go thru official, legal channels.
posted on February 23, 2003 05:48:56 PM new
First, I think its awful this young girl died.
But with that being said, the parents aren't allowing the organs to be donated? This is just what I've read into this so far. and if its because they are Catholic, thats not right, I linked above to the 'status' of that question and what the Pope says about it.
NOW even if their own personal beleifs won't allow to donate their organs, BUT THEY ARE ABLE TO ACCEPT ORGANS DONATED?
That just isn't right, they'll take the organs, but they refuse to donate organs..
but whatever. I'm sure we'll all hear there will be a gigantic lawsuit, or big settlement come out of this.
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on February 23, 2003 08:28:58 PM new
I truly hope that that comment was made only to inflame and not out of a sincere belief. That's got to be one of the most closed minded bigoted statements I have every heard.
I'm disgusted that someone would believe that a paying patient is not worthy of competant care simply because they are not from this country.
posted on February 23, 2003 09:25:51 PM new"They were illegals. People can get visas for medical treatment in the US very easy".
Yes, they can but no, it is not "very easy". Even were it "very easy" it takes an amount of time - time that was not available to this girl. Her situation had worsened in Mexico to the point that the planned and correct procedure would have most likely killed her.
posted on February 24, 2003 09:10:25 AM new
She had just as much "time" as all the US citizens on the transplant waiting list that have died waiting for the organs she received, as well as the ones that died because her ungrateful family refused to allow her organs to be donated.
There is a saying in torts- 'he who comes to equity must come with clean hands'. There was nothing "clean" about this malpractice case. From entering the country illegally to refusing to donate her organs. It will have an effect on the jury. This has nothing to do with being "worthy" of competent medical and has everything to do with cashing in yet again on American goodwill.
posted on February 24, 2003 09:10:42 AM new
There are no religious objections to organ donations in Catholicism. If her parents refused to donate her 2nd set of organs, it's not because of their Catholic religion (IF they ARE Catholic).
I heard on the news last night that the parents are investigating legal action. But I don't know if this is really true or not. Such a sad story....
posted on February 24, 2003 09:36:52 AM new
REAMOND - neither fact is relevent to the obvious malpractice and since juries today tend to award amounts meant to teach the guilty party a lesson more so than rewarding the injured It definately could be a runaway case. How are you running a transplant program with no redundancies in the system to protect against this kind of mistake?
posted on February 24, 2003 09:58:44 AM new
All of these facts are relevant as to damages. There is no question to the charge of malpractice. But that is just one element of winning a torts case.
All of these facts will come into the damages phase of the case.
Even if the case never goes to trial, these facts will be used to negotiate a settlement.
Helen- this case is sad, and the world is full of these sad cases. What is not sad, but rather detestable, is that some people will break the law not just to benefit themselves, but in doing so also take resources away from others and sentence them to death. If everyone decided to break the law to get what they wanted or needed, the whole system breaks down wherein no one gets what they want or need. Just news of this reaching Mexico will cause an untold number of Mexican and Central/South Americans who need transplants to enter the country illegally.
Some people think that the situation is sanguine and a real tear jerker waiting for a TV movie of the week. I think it is just a situation of a scofflaw family that believes they have a right to resources above all others in their same situation and can do whtever they want to get those resources. Refusing to donate her organs is just icing on the cake and definitive of the type of people they are.
posted on February 24, 2003 10:31:55 AM new
Reamond
Only you would be so callous to call these poor people a "scofflaw family" They, like anybody in the world did the best that they could to get help for their dying child. They came to this country and waited three years on the transplant list.
The status of this girl was a human being in need of help. I don't know and I doubt that you know the status of her mother at the time of the transplant.
To classify this tragedy as a made for tv tear jerker is further evidence of your uninformed and callous attitude. You are so focused on the immigration issue that you can't see the forest for the trees.
posted on February 24, 2003 11:01:19 AM new
Another possible reason for not donating the organs...
The lawyer for the family says that the family did not want her taken off life support. They wanted a second opinion. The hospital exercised whatever right it is they have and pulled the plug anyway.
If the family had given consent for organ donation, wouldn't they have been giving consent to turn off life support, which they refused to do? What should the family have done? The hospital should have been allowed to harvest her organs *after* shutting off life support against the family's wishes? Please, that's ridiculous.
Regardless, I think it's despicable that folks keep trying to villify this family. They did *nothing* wrong, received sub-standard, horrific medical treatment, and should be left alone to mourn their child.
posted on February 24, 2003 02:22:55 PM new
Some of the same people that argue for the young Mexican girl's right to come to this country for the surgery are the very same the vilify the United States.
Call it Satanic and say it wants to take over the world.
Apparently, her family didn't think so. Probably thought the streets were paved with Gold as the old thought goes.
It was a horrible thing to happen. Horrible to happen to anyone especially to a young person.
If she didn't come here, She would have probably died. What bothers me is the Moronic mistake that was made. I believe the Doctor must truly be a total A**hole. According to one of our local Doctors, Head of that type of thing (Albany Medical Center). It was to late after the first botched transplant. Her body was doing everything it could to fight off the organs.
The family deserves some sort of reparation and then repatriation
posted on February 24, 2003 09:02:37 PM new
Just on the O' factor, they said that the parents did not want the organs to be donated as they felt the doctors were murders
While it is so very sad that this girl lost her life and the parents are going threw H/ll and the doctors did screw up, no question there.
My point is, With every transplant, you have a certain amount of risk, even if everything goes right, and I'm sure the parents were very well aware of this {at least I would think so}
To some degree I can understand why the parents did not want the organs to be donated, BUT on another hand I do not, As I have been in that situation with my son, when they said he was brain dead, and they were not sure as to what caused his death at the time, My frist responce was for his organs to be donated so that while his life is over, someone else could live. I was not thrilled with it {my son was dying}, but felt that it was the best, and gave some peace to my heart.
They were not able to take any of his organs as they were not sure of what caused his death, at that time I was very sadend to think that he was dying and he couldn't help another in need.
So to some degree, I am sad / upset that the parents feel/felt the way they do.If it wasn't for someone else, their daughter did NOT have a chance in h/ll, as it was it was 2 people that GAVE, unselfishly, so that she had a chance at living longer.
One other note, to be taken off of life support, you don't or can't just pull the plug,,, most require that you have a second person check {different doctor}to make sure that , yes they are indeed brain dead.
I do not think they would allow a autospie to be done, given there mind set.just my thinking here, as to calling the doctors "murders".That is if they are told what is done during it.
To each is own.
sorry for the spelling typo's, its late.
[ edited by wrightsracing on Feb 24, 2003 09:07 PM ]
