posted on February 24, 2003 12:34:36 AM new
I wasn't around at that time, but from what I understand, most of those accused were indeed communists. I don't find anything wrong with weeding out influencial American communists during the Cold War.
posted on February 24, 2003 04:30:06 AM new
So if you were called on to identify five people whom you know as communists, whether they actually WERE or were not communists, in order that you would not be charged to be a communist yourself you would think that that was a reasonable demand upon you? After your identification and yours alone, if those people having no affiliation with any communist group and having made no action sympathetic to a communist cause you would think that their villification for communism would be justified even though it meant the loss of their livelihood, their possible imprisonment, and the general destruction of every meaningful element of their lives?
posted on February 24, 2003 07:55:03 AM new
McCarthy had a rabid belief that the government and the country was riddled with communists. Today, there is a simililar belief that the country is riddled with anti-Americans. Even peace marches are suspect. An analogy to McCarthy today might be Ashcroft if he had unlimited power. The following links illustrate the problem today.
"What's analogous to McCarthyism is the self-appointed guardians who are engaging in private blacklisting," says Eric Foner, professor of history at Columbia University. "That's why the Lynne Cheney thing is so disturbing: Her group is trying to intimidate individuals who hold different points of view. There aren't loyalty oaths being demanded of teachers yet, but we seem to be at the beginning of a process that could get a lot worse and is already cause for considerable alarm."
We've been here before. From the Alien and Sedition Acts to Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus and his imprisonment of anti-war editors, from the suppression of speech during World War I and the Palmer Raids to the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II and the repression of the McCarthy days, the government has seized upon times of peril to scapegoat immigrants and to suppress liberties.
"No analogy is ever perfect, and history doesn't repeat itself exactly, but there's a pattern of the government restricting freedom of expression and running roughshod over traditional protections for the accused," Foner says. "Anybody concerned with freedom of expression and civil liberties should be very, very concerned."
posted on February 24, 2003 12:17:27 PM new
There is nothing wrong with "black listing" or any other "listing" done by the private sector.
The problem with the HUAC was that it was a government action.
Political correctness hasn't yet, but will try, to smother private free association if it can.
While anyone is free to associate with commies or anarchists, or republicans, businesses and other private entities as well as individuals are free not to associate nor be forced to associate with people due to their political views.
I find nothing wrong with movie producers black listing Sean Penn, Susan Sarandan, her husband, or any other person that they do not want assoicated with their product. They are free to do so just as another producer is free to hire them anbd make or lose millions. Conservative actors have been black listed by many producers for decades. However, the government has no business in these associations one way or the other.
posted on February 24, 2003 01:35:14 PM new
>There is nothing wrong with "black listing" or any other "listing" done by the private sector.
The practice of blacklisting is a felony and it has been for a long time. It also has been prosecuted as a crime. It's history is a dark and tragic one. And you find nothing wrong with it?
posted on February 24, 2003 02:05:14 PM new
McCarthyism,
I was only a child during this time but remember it well. It was a very scary time. They had TV shows like "I was a commie for the FBI" (I can't remember the real name).
Seems like everyone knew someone that was a member of the communist or socialist party at the time.
They were naive people (just like today). They meant no harm. Not like the Television and Movies depicted.
McCarthyism was a mania, paranoia and hate ran rabid. Just know it was a very bad time. Amen.
ebayauctionguy, Seems you've got some people very upset. I wonder why.
Amen,
Better Dead then Red,
Reverend Colin
posted on February 24, 2003 02:16:03 PM new
Bor- There is no law against black listing for political affliations, felony or otherwise. In fact a law against black listing for political association would be unconstitutional on its face.
Name one person ever prosecuted for private black listing for political affliation. There aren;t any.
If what you said were true, every studio in Hollywood could have been criminally charged,but none were.
[ edited by REAMOND on Feb 24, 2003 02:18 PM ]
posted on February 24, 2003 02:28:51 PM new
‘weed out communists’?
This requires a definition of ‘communist’.
If I agree with ANYTHING Karl Marx said, does that make me a communist?
Surely there is some GOOD in ‘communist’ ideals ????
The ‘McCarthy’ effect can still be seen in the US psyche.
The home of the brave is still very very very fearful, of the ‘red peril’.
Mcarthyism, brought fear into the US citizens; fear of speaking their mind.
It took away your ‘FREEDOM’ to speak your mind, freedom to speak truthfully.
Similarly, now you are touted as being an enemy of ‘the state’ if you are anti-war.
posted on February 24, 2003 02:37:26 PM new
Black listing is only a problem when the government does it.
Private businesses can fire or hire people for political affliations anytime they want.
If I don't want communists or republicans working for my company, I can fire them or not hire them at will.
Can you force the DNC to hire republicans ? No you can not. Can the DNC fire an employee that changes his/her political affliation? Sure can.
You're mixing apples and oranges when you think that something the government can not do is something that a private entity can not do.
A similar debate is now raging regarding religious affliation and employment.
Should baptist church employers be forced to hire atheists ? Some say yes if the baptists churches start collecting government money under Bush's plan to pay them to do community services.
But in any event, a church employer does not have to hire or employ an atheist.
A private company can fire you if you're a communist, or because you're not a communist.
There are no protections in the private sector for political affliations.
posted on February 24, 2003 04:43:35 PM newIf I don't want communists or republicans working for my company, I can fire them or not hire them at will.
No, you can not. That is illegal discrimination.
Can you force the DNC to hire republicans ? No you can not. Can the DNC fire an employee that changes his/her political affliation? Sure can.
True, because by DEFINITION the hiring is exclusive and by hiring the "enemy", there would be problems. But in a business, where politics is not the product, it is clear discrimination.
However, you can fire the worker if he/she disrupts work trying to "convert" others
I became a Nudist not because of the Sun, Fresh Air and Freedom, but because I got tired of people making fun of the way I dressed
[ edited by mlecher on Feb 24, 2003 04:44 PM ]
[ edited by mlecher on Feb 24, 2003 04:45 PM ]
posted on February 24, 2003 04:51:48 PM new
It is also illegal to discriminate by, among other things, political affiliation. One can't be fired simply for being a communist. Thankfully, things have changed from the 50s. Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on February 24, 2003 05:35:01 PM new
You people are in a dream world. Political affliation is NOT a suspect class and enjoys no special protections. It can be protected through contract, such as state employment rules for non-executive employees.
Black listing goes on day in and day out. As long as it is done by the private sector, there is nothing you can do about it. There was no constitutional protections for those who were blacklisted by the movie studios back then and there is nothing they can do now.
Sean Penn recently stated he was denied a movie role due to his political positions. He was denied the role by one of the richest producers in the western hemisphere. Penn won't file suit and even if he does find a lawyer to take his money he will lose on the issue of blacklisting, because it is not against the law if done by private interests and based on political affliations.
In any event, you're wrong and I challenge any of you to find a Supreme Court ruling that states that one's political affliation creates a protected class.
posted on February 24, 2003 06:22:24 PM new
Helen: "McCarthy had a rabid belief that the government and the country was riddled with communists."
Well, McCarthy was correct. For example, our atomic bomb program was crawling with communists and communist sympathizers. They even gave away the secrets to the atomic bomb to the soviets. We were not the superpower that we are today and the future of the free world was uncertain at that time.
I'm not falling for the left's demonization of McCarthy.
posted on February 24, 2003 07:09:48 PM new
This is one of hundreds of short, concise, objective histories of McCarthy on the net. This one comes from the CNN Cold War Profiles. McCarthy's documented behavior should help to distinguish for you the difference between uncovering subversive spies and the sort of behavior that has become known as McCarthyism.
Born in a small, close-knit Irish farming community in Grand Chute, Wisconsin, on November 14, 1909, Joseph McCarthy dropped out of school at age 14. Six years later, he crammed a four-year high school program into one year and in 1930 was admitted to Marquette University. He received his law degree in 1935, and in 1939 was elected a Wisconsin circuit court judge. During World War II, McCarthy served as a lieutenant in the Marine Corps. In 1944, he lost a campaign for the U.S. Senate. His next try came two years later, when he challenged Sen. Robert M. LaFollette for the Republican nomination. He won, and in the fall became the junior senator from Wisconsin.
His early years in the Senate were unimpressive, but in 1949, with several U.S. Cold War setbacks and an increasingly anti-communist political atmosphere at home, McCarthy found a cause. In February 1950, in Wheeling, West Virginia, he made the first of a series of claims that he had the names of "known communists" who were in the employ of the State Department. It was the beginning of a personal witch hunt for communists in the government that lasted for more than five years. McCarthy rarely provided any solid evidence to back up his claims, but in the political climate of the time his accusations and subsequent investigations nonetheless ended many a career and damaged a good number of lives.
After winning re-election in 1952, McCarthy became chairman of the Permanent Investigations Subcommittee, a position he used to launch many of his investigations of government officials and agencies. He did not shy away from questioning the integrity of people such as George C. Marshall, or even President Eisenhower. The latter disliked McCarthy intensely but refused to "get in the gutter with him" and never denounced the senator publicly. However, by 1953 a seemingly out-of-control McCarthy was making many enemies. His investigation of the activities of an Army dentist, Maj. Irving Peress, eventually led to his downfall. In 1954, the Army launched its counterattack, charging that McCarthy was seeking preferential treatment for a consultant, David Schine, who in 1953 had been drafted into the Army. Eventually McCarthy's own subcommittee decided to hold hearings on the matter, the Army-McCarthy hearings. The televised hearings fully exposed McCarthy as irresponsible and dishonest. In December 1954, the Senate voted to censure him. McCarthy never repented, but he quickly descended into irrelevance and alcoholism. He died of a liver ailment in Bethesda, Maryland, on May 2, 1957, at age 47.
posted on February 24, 2003 07:12:18 PM new
McCarthy was wrong for causing the government to abuse people for their political affliations and even friendships.
McCarthy was not wrong for going after criminal behavior such as selling state secrets and other espionage.
He blurred the line being drunk with power. Political status or even former political status is not a crime.
posted on February 24, 2003 07:33:52 PM new
ebayauctionguy
McCarthy was one of the most vicious human beings in American political history. In fact, he was so vile, that the term McCarthyism today is defined as wild, unsubstantiated , irresponsible slanderous accusations. He trashed good people's reputations and caused thousands of people to lose their jobs because of his baseless allegations of communist association. No agency including the military was safe.
You say that you aren't falling for the left's demonization of McCarthy. McCarthy demonized himself and the left was not alone in seeing the danger in McCarthy. Both Republicans and Democrats were attacked by McCarthy until he was finaly censored in 1954 by an overwhelming vote of the Senate for "conduct unbecoming a Member of the United States Senate."
posted on February 24, 2003 07:38:16 PM new
Here's a standard dictionary definition of the term McCarthyism, though Helen's definition is more illustrative and interesting. The meaning is essentially the same.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
McCarthyism
SYLLABICATION: Mc·Car·thy·ism
PRONUNCIATION: m-kärth-zm
NOUN: 1. The practice of publicizing accusations of political disloyalty or subversion with insufficient regard to evidence. 2. The use of unfair investigatory or accusatory methods in order to suppress opposition.
ETYMOLOGY: After Joseph Raymond McCarthy.
OTHER FORMS: Mc·Carthy·ist —NOUN
posted on February 24, 2003 08:01:22 PM new
McCarthy even directed the State Department to remove 40 books from their library centers here and accross the world including The Selected Works of Thomas Jefferson, edited by Philip Foner, and The Children's Hour by Lillian Hellman. Some books were burned.
posted on February 24, 2003 08:55:00 PM new
In CNN's summary of McCarthy's life, there's not one word about the many genuine American communists that McCarthy helped get rid of. And so I won't judge McCarthy on biased documentaries like this one from CNN.
It's just another example of the left's demonization of McCarthy.
Produce some negative McCarthy biographies from conservative sources and I might reconsider my opinion. But probably not, because communist-haters are all right in my book.
posted on February 24, 2003 09:05:40 PM new
ebayauctionguy,
You seem somewhat confused. Your question was, "What was so bad about McCarthyism?" That's been explained and it is unquestionably documented.
Now, if you wish to point out some good that McCarthy did in working to uncover subversive activities in counterbalance to the great deal of harm that he did, then why don't you site and document those incidents.
In any event, the meaning of the term "McCarthyism" is specific as set by the lexicographers of our language and no one's opinion will change that since it is an established fact.
