posted on February 24, 2003 09:31:58 PM new
I believe that most of the harm that he caused fell upon real communists and communist sympathizers. I have a hard time feeling sorry for their ruined careers.
A few innocents might have gotten mixed up in it all, but overall I think McCarthy provided a great service to this country.
posted on February 24, 2003 10:00:03 PM new
>NOUN: 1. The practice of publicizing accusations of political disloyalty or subversion with insufficient regard to evidence. 2. The use of unfair investigatory or accusatory methods in order to suppress opposition.
Sort of like what we've been experiencing here at the Round Table for opposition to the War on Iraq. McCarthyites have accused many of us of being "unpatriotic" and "disloyal" to Bush and America and even "pro-Saddam supporters". McCarthyism is alive and well here! You know who you are!
posted on February 24, 2003 10:03:26 PM new
>I believe that most of the harm that he caused fell upon real communists and communist sympathizers. I have a hard time feeling sorry for their ruined careers.
Never, inthe entire history of this country, has being affliated with or a card carrying member of the Communist Party been illegal. In fact, it is AMERICAN TRADTION to respect all other's political opinions, even if you don't agree with them (exception: War).
posted on February 24, 2003 10:33:01 PM new
Winston Churchill once said:
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
Communism had some pros as well as cons. It just didn't work and was politically corrupt.
EBayauctionguy: Would you really feel comfortable living in a society like the early 1950s in the U.S. where you were deemed guilty and punished by society unless you could prove yourself innocent? A society where you might be punished for your political opinions even if those opinions were not translated into action or may not have even been verbally expressed - where you did nothing wrong?
posted on February 24, 2003 10:53:09 PM newSort of like what we've been experiencing here at the Round Table for opposition to the War on Iraq. McCarthyites have accused many of us of being "unpatriotic" and "disloyal" to Bush and America and even "pro-Saddam supporters". McCarthyism is alive and well here! You know who you are!
This thread looks like its gonna get ugly.....
And *I* never said you were unpatriotic or disloyal.
You know you can protest and express all the opinions you want, and at the same time, I can express my opinions too.
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on February 24, 2003 11:06:28 PM new
If I were around in the 1950's, a time when the Soviet Union was spreading communism all over the world, with enemy spies and sympathizers in high levels of our own government and society, you better believe that I would want a strict crackdown on communists.
Hello?? They gave away A-bomb secrets to the soviets for crying out loud!!
posted on February 24, 2003 11:09:04 PM new
NeartheSea: Well you can't think that unequal sharing of blessings is a pro particularly considering the huge gap between the very rich and the very poor?
I've flip-flopped. My very first vote as a teenager was for a socialist, a politician who seemed like a very decent human being, well respected by all political parties. (There was no chance for that Party to become the government so I felt free to vote for the individual who I felt would do the most good.)
I do appreciate socialized medicine here in Canada, knowing that no one will be denied medical care because they can't afford it.
I slowing moved from the left to middle of the road in voting over years. I had a major brain fart a few years ago in the 1980s and voted Reform (far right), fascinated by the party's proposal for a flat tax. When I saw the kind of wackos the party was attracting (despite the party's efforts to keep them out) I quickly retreated back to middle of the road.
posted on February 24, 2003 11:09:15 PM new
When McCarthy began to attack the Army, it marked the beginning of the end of his career. This is a link to a hearing between McCarthy and Army Chief Counsel Joseph Welch
http://www.bobhoffman.com/documents/Documents/joemccarthyhearings.html
The transcript follows a short introduction.
excerpt of introduction.
In April 1954, McCarthy charged that the Army had pressured him to curtail an investigation of Communists within its ranks. The Army, McCarthy claimed, had threatened to abuse one of McCarthy's former staffers, Private G. David Schine, who had recently been drafted, if McCarthy didn't end the investigation. The Army called McCarthy's charges preposterous, and counter-charged that McCarthy had been seeking special favors for Schine.
On April 22, Congress opened hearings on the controversy. They lasted for 55 days.
Newspapers across the country printed transcripts of the testimony, full of slander and hyperbole. ABC covered the hearings gavel-to-gavel, and 20 million Americans sat riveted to their t.v. sets for almost eight weeks.
Television transformed the hearings into an on-air spectacle. At one point, McCarthy interrupted testimony, scribbling a memo requesting that the cameras be turned off so he could wipe his nose.
McCarthy had stepped down from his chair to testify. Boston Attorney Joseph Welch represented the Army. McCarthy aide Roy Cohn testified that Communists had infiltrated the Army, and that Cohn and McCarthy had another list of names of "card carrying members of the Communist Party" who were high-ranking members of the Department of Defense. Although there had been some security risks in the Army, Welch felt certain that Cohn was grandstanding, pretending to have a list of names, like McCarthy had done in West Virginia.
With a few short questions Welch not only trapped Cohn, but drew McCarthy into slanderous attack.
posted on February 24, 2003 11:50:19 PM new
Apparently McCarthyism at least shrank the Communist ranks in the U.S.
"The activities of the House of Un-American Activities Committee and McCarthyism also had a detrimental effect on membership (in the Communist Party) and by 1957 it had fallen to 10,000. The Daily Worker also ceased publication in 1957."
posted on February 25, 2003 05:55:54 AM new
McCarthy got rid of not a single spy or subversive. All it did was ruin lives. It fact, so much energy was focused at the innocent or the casual, the Soviet spies were able to work with impunity and almost in the open.
The typical "communist" McCarthy focused on was the person, who in college, joined the party because they were led to believe the women who were in the party were "loose". Joining the party would guarantee them getting laid. It didn't usually work out that way and they would drop their membership, BUT THEY WERE FOREVER ON RECORD as having "been" a communist(rather than young and horny)
I became a Nudist not because of the Sun, Fresh Air and Freedom, but because I got tired of people making fun of the way I dressed
[ edited by mlecher on Feb 25, 2003 05:56 AM ]
Though Truman would later complain of the "great wave of hysteria" sweeping the nation, his commitment to victory over communism, to completely safeguarding the United States from external and internal threats, was in large measure responsible for creating that very hysteria. Between the launching of his security program in March 1947 and december 1952, some 6.6 million persons were investigated. Not a single case of espionage was uncovered, though about 500 persons were dismissed in dubious cases of "questionable loyalty" All of this was conducted with secret evidence, secret and often paid informers and NEITHER JUDGE NOR JURY. Despite the failure to find subversion, the broad scope of the official Red hunt gave POPULAR CREDENCE to the NOTION that the government was RIDDLED WITH SPIES. A conservative and fearful reaction coursed the country. Americans became convinced of the need for absolute security and the preservation of the established order.
With this HYSTERIA going on a WITCH HUNT began headed by McCarthy. His *hunt* is remembered more for the innocent people that he ruined than for the few dubious communists that he was able to locate.
posted on February 25, 2003 09:37:46 AM new
krs- you can define blacklisting however you wish, but the legal substance of blacklisting was denying employment based on political affliation. There is no special constitutional protection for a political group or political affiliation, nor is there a constitutional manner in which to deny the right of free association by denying employment to a political group or affiliation.
A private employer can refuse to hire and can fire an employee for political affiliation and there is no law against it that can withstand the constitutional prohibition for such a law.
There has never been constitutional protections for political affiliations. There has never been a successful case for discrimination due to political affiliation.
The whole concept of political affiliation being a protected class under the law is laughable. I have no idea where you guys come up with your constitutional "opinions". Perhaps from cartoons or movies ?
posted on February 25, 2003 09:49:31 AM new
A few innocents might have gotten mixed up in it all, but overall I think McCarthy provided a great service to this country.
So if your neighbor denounces you in error and homeland security throws you in jail indefinatly without a concrete charge you will count it all for the greater good and willingly sacrifice...
posted on February 25, 2003 12:32:51 PM new
>There has never been constitutional protections for political affiliations.
There also has never been a constitutional prohibiton on Marijuana use, yet it exists. Imagine that! And those cases that have been sweapt up to the Federal Supreme Court on that basis have been upheld because Congress can enact laws that are not in the Constitution; such as, Blacklisting.
>The whole concept of political affiliation being a protected class under the law is laughable.
posted on February 25, 2003 12:43:18 PM new
Drug use has no constitutional protections and IS covered by the General Welfare clause of the constitution, asa well as state police powers. What does that have to do with protections of political affiliations ?
"It falls under Free Speech, REAMOND".
Denying you employment for your political affiliation or views has nothing to do with free speech. You can still say and associate with whatever political group you wish, you just can't do it while working for the X company which will not employee people with those views.
Free Speech does not mean nor guarantee there will be no private social or economic consequences for what you say or who you associate with. It merely means that you can say and associate with whom you wish without government interference.
I am curious, just how your logic reaches from free speech to some sort of employment guarantees derived from the constitution?
posted on February 25, 2003 03:38:37 PM new
ebayauctionguy; The communists got the A-Bomb secret from USA ????
They weren’t the only ones.
Didn’t the Zionist ‘supremacists’ get the A-Bomb from USA ????
Let’s try one of your phrases:
The atomic bomb program was crawling with Zionists and [I]Zionist[I/] sympathizers.
You’ll just let that one slide, hey.
True communism is opposed to the existence of a lower ‘class’ of people that can’t afford to eat., unlike true ‘capitalism’, which has no such underlying concern.
Is that a bad characteristic of communism?
Whether or not this goal was achieved by any communist state, does not mean this was not an underlying belief.
An extract from the link created by Bones21, http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAcommunist.htm
“United States - a system which in the land of plenty reduces men to starvation, denies them medical care, and - being an integral part of the "free world" - subjects them to such mental and physical torture as would shame the keeper of a medieval dungeon.”
posted on February 25, 2003 03:41:47 PM new
McCarthyism and Communisism are both propergated by morons and frauds. Both a product of narrow minded people with no life of their own.
One is just as bad as the other.
I hope that answers your question.
Amen,
Better Dead then Red,
Reverend Colin
posted on February 25, 2003 04:00:50 PM new
colin "McCarthyism and Communisism are both propergated by morons and frauds"
What specifically is the underlying 'fraud' within the communist ‘ideal’ ?
We therefore determine that promotions, transfers, and recalls after layoffs based on political affiliation or support are an impermissible infringement on the First Amendment rights of public employees. In doing so, we reject the Seventh Circuit's view of the appropriate constitutional standard by which to measure alleged patronage practices in government employment. The Seventh Circuit proposed that only those employment decisions that are the "substantial equivalent of a dismissal" violate a public employee's rights under the First Amendment. 868 F.2d at 954-957. We find this test unduly restrictive, because it fails to recognize that there are deprivations less harsh than dismissal that nevertheless press state employees and applicants to conform their beliefs and associations to some state-selected orthodoxy.
Took me all of 10 seconds to find the truth Reamond
I guess Borillar is right about you.
I became a Nudist not because of the Sun, Fresh Air and Freedom, but because I got tired of people making fun of the way I dressed
posted on February 25, 2003 04:27:32 PM new
from AustBounty:
An extract from the link created by Bones21, http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAcommunist.htm
“United States - a system which in the land of plenty reduces men to starvation, denies them medical care, and - being an integral part of the "free world" - subjects them to such mental and physical torture as would shame the keeper of a medieval dungeon.”
What on earth did Sean Penn do or say???
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure where exactly you found this statement --- there's alot of Communist rhetoric on that site, some going back to the '20's. I totally disagree with it, however.
I have lived here all of my life and have NEVER SEEN A STARVING PERSON, HEALTHCARE IS AVAILABLE FOR THE MIDDLE-CLASS (insurance, etc), THE RICH, AND THE POOR GET IT FREE, AND MENTAL & PHYSICAL TORTURE IS CERTAINLY A BIG PROBLEM HERE (NOT!).
I don't know if you have BEEN to the U.S. before, but the next time you come please look at the bright side of life. There are a lot of good things here. And before you say we "stole them" from the rest of the world, I would like to say that we give MORE than we receive.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And, oh yes, WHO CARES what Sean Penn thinks??? And why would you ?! Seriously!
posted on February 25, 2003 04:45:25 PM new
REAMOND, Political Speech is classifed as Protected Speech. While the Supreme Court and the Constitutition can not prevent you from getting punched in the face, it CAN prosecute the person who did so under a number of violations; not just for assualt and damages, but also as a violation of a person's Civil Rights. Therefore, while a job may refuse to hire you due to your political affliation or vocalization; or to fire you for discovering you to have such, it CAN also be sued for Civil Rights infringement for doing so!
sp.
ed. to add: I just now read mlecher's post.
[ edited by Borillar on Feb 25, 2003 04:46 PM ]
[ edited by Borillar on Feb 25, 2003 04:48 PM ]
posted on February 25, 2003 04:46:22 PM new
"I became a Nudist not because of the Sun, Fresh Air and Freedom, but because I got tired of people making fun of the way I dressed"
I quit being a Nudist not because of the Sun, Fresh Air and Freedom, but because it was making the other men feel inferior.
Amen,
Yes I can tell a lie too,
Reverend Colin
posted on February 25, 2003 04:54:20 PM new
Borillar
I have already listed a case where it was declared unconstitutional to use political affiliation for hiring and firing. The Supreme Court ruled on it. It was among HUNDREDS of other cases with the same ruling. Took me 10 seconds to find. But some refuse to put forth even that much effort to find the truth, which makes all their other opinions suspect.
It is also part of the Federal EO law.
Oh yes THE RIGHT REVEREND COLIN
When are you going to start your own "Confession" thread so we can go and confess our horrible deeds and you can issue penitence and absolution....and perhaps a few Indulgences?
Edited because I misspelled COLON
I became a Nudist not because of the Sun, Fresh Air and Freedom, but because I got tired of people making fun of the way I dressed
[ edited by mlecher on Feb 25, 2003 04:59 PM ]
