posted on March 18, 2003 11:18:07 AM new
Pope says that god would OK a war if other countries backed it. What a crock. This position sets christianity on its ear.
posted on March 18, 2003 12:37:37 PM new
The way I view the Pope's stance is he's given it [peace] his best shot.
He's pleaded with both the US and Iraq to settle this without war.
posted on March 18, 2003 01:02:14 PM new
That's interesting reamond. It made me wonder how many Catholics are against the war simply because the Pope says so?
posted on March 18, 2003 01:37:14 PM new
Was just going to say what Katy did
I may have been baptized, raised, went to Parochial school Catholic, but I am no longer.
But I don't agree with what the Pope said
Besides, the Pope? he is so old now, he has advisors tell him what to say. And its not like he can retire, they have to wait until one passes away before they 'elect' the new one.
The Pope is not God, and I do not believe (anymore) that he speaks For God
(my mother and grandmother are turning over right now, for that, they would say that was blasphemy for sure)
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on March 18, 2003 03:54:38 PM new
Not trying to turn this into a religious thread, and I'm the last person to comment about Catholicism, since I don't know much about it. That said, when Jesus said, "come to the Father through me", IMO he didn't mean the Pope. And I believe I can pray directly to God without going through Mary.
posted on March 18, 2003 04:03:34 PM new
Different people have different motives for going to this war.
I wonder how Jews vote for the war.
It's clear how the PNAC Feel.
I think the Jewish lobby has gone too far this time.
The Israelites say they don't want to be involved, it's not their war.
How weak, two faced, hiding the truth.
Others obviously go along because they 'don't want to offend the troops'.
If you think that's a valid reason for war, it's sad.
Thank you George Bush II, John Howard & Tony Blair, thank you for strengthening our Christian dominance.
A religion that most of us care little for.
Reamond & others like him must be smiling ear to ear.
The immoral minority has its way.
When our media was saying "POSSIBLE war with Iraq", was there ever any doubt.
Democracy? Hah! Look at your last elections.
If anything happens to my children, I can assure you that I will be looking for someone to blame, and with great zeal.
posted on March 18, 2003 04:07:43 PM new
Regardless of how one feels about this war, it appears from posts here and many other boards that I frequent, the one lesson learned from Vietnam is "support the military members". I'm thankful for that.
posted on March 18, 2003 04:57:22 PM new
Valleygirl
Support our troops by bringing them home.
Support Our Troops
By Michael Albert
If war comes even despite the historic, tenacious, and comprehensive
opposition now raging across the planet, the U.S. government will
proclaim triumphantly that everyone who isn't a traitor needs to rally
around Washington to "support our troops." Opponents of the war could
opt for many possible replies.
We could point out that our troops in Iraq are barely in danger at all
because they are assaulting a tenth-rate opponent that has no serious
means to defend Iraq much less to attack the world's sole superpower.
We could point out that while perhaps a few hundred U.S. troops will die
in this war, way over 50,000 U.S. citizens will die in the next 12
months due to workplace accidents and death by industry-caused diseases
and automobile accidents (not to mention the impact of pollution and
unsafe products). We could then query why this massive yearly blight on
our population, roughly 15 times as devastating as 9/11, doesn't provoke
a war on corporations' profit-seeking violations of their employees' and
consumers' health and safety.
Or we could point out that the lives of American troops are no more
worthy of compassionate support than the lives of Iraqis, and that we
didn't kill Hussein a million times over with our decade-long sanctions
but we instead killed a million Iraqis once each -- with Hussein getting
stronger as each new corpse was added to the carnage.
And of course we could explain how unleashing a campaign to "shock and
awe" a country is unjust and immoral, how it is an archetype example of
the terrorism we say we are against.
But for myself, I think that perhaps a different approach might work
better, and so if war does come, I intend to reply to the demand to
support our troops by saying that yes, I too "support our troops."
I will reply that I support our troops not having to kill people in
Iraq.
I support our troops not being ordered to assault defenseless
populations, towns, farms, and the infrastructural sinews of life that
sustain a whole country's citizenry.
I support our troops not having to carry out orders from Commander in
Chief George Bush and then having to live the rest of their lives
wondering why they obeyed such a barbaric buffoon rather than resisting
his illegitimate, immoral authority.
And for the same reason, I support the Pope and the Dalai Lama going to
Iraq in the place of our troops, as human shields and also to aid those
Iraqis who have already suffered under our sanctions and bombs as well
as under the violence of Hussein who was, of course, previously the
recipient of U.S. military aid and even U.S. guidance in his horrible
undertakings.
In fact, I support all rabbis and priests and other moral leaders going
to Iraq as human shields - and all past Noble Peace Prize winners -- and
all past winners of any big peace or humanitarian prize at all, anywhere
-- and heads of state, for that matter.
I support our troops not dying in Iraq figuratively or literally,
physically or psychologically. I support our troops coming home with
their hearts not broken, retaining humanity and compassion essential to
feeling true solidarity with those who confront tyrannical behavior
abroad, or right here in the U.S. with its 30 million tyrannized poor.
I support our troops coming home with their minds ravenous to comprehend
what is wrong with war for empire, what is wrong with war to obliterate
international law, what is wrong with war to control oil and use it as a
bludgeon against allies and enemies alike, what is wrong with war for
profit, what is wrong with war to intimidate whole nations and
continents, what is wrong with war to subordinate a planet and even to
test and trumpet the tools of war.
What must it do to one's mind and soul to engage as a soldier in a war
in which the enemy is defenseless, in which the motives of one's leaders
are vile, and in which one's own say over the events is nil?
I support our troops refusing to kill on behalf of politicians and
profiteers. I support our troops rebelling against orders, not obeying
them. I support our troops rejecting reasons of state. And I support our
troops coming home to where their real battle is.
We must battle to reinvest our society with aspirations for justice and
equality and with respect for diversity, solidarity, and
self-management.
We must battle to eliminate the scourge of private ownership that makes
a few people as rich as whole populations and that leaves many people
less rich than the pets of profiteers.
We must battle to totally eradicate the racism and sexism that denigrate
whole sectors of the population, to free sexuality and culture, to free
creativity, and to sustain the environment.
Bush tells us to bomb Iraq on grounds Iraq may have bombs. He tells us
to bomb Iraq on grounds Iraq curtails freedoms. He tells us to bomb Iraq
on grounds Iraq may be abetting terrorism.
What then should we do about a country that has by far the most bombs in
the world and that uses them most widely-and that brags about it
shamelessly?
What should we do about a country that is currently curtailing freedoms
abroad and moving to do so at home with a dangerously escalating
vigor-and that brags about it shamelessly?
And what should we do about a country that is producing terrorism most
aggressively - both terrorism directed at others and also terrorism
which will be unleashed against us in reply-and that brags about it
shamelessly.
What should we do about the U.S.? We should curtail its belligerency,
change its regime, and fundamentally revolutionize its centers of wealth
and power.
Support our troops, bring them home.
Support our troops, provide them housing.
Support our troops, provide them health care.
Support our troops, provide them socially valuable jobs.
Turn military bases into industrial centers for the production of low
cost housing, schools, hospitals, daycare centers, rail lines, inner
city parks, and other social and public goods that can enrich rather
than snuff out life.
Support our troops and one day they will join the fight for unlimited
justice for all.
posted on March 18, 2003 05:13:13 PM newI support our troops refusing to kill on behalf of politicians and profiteers. I support our troops rebelling against orders, not obeying them. I support our troops rejecting reasons of state. And I support our troops coming home to where their real battle is.
That whole statement is the most anti-American statement I believe I have ever read. Whether one supports this war or not...to say they support our troops rebelling against orders, not obeying them, when they have VOLUNTARILY signed on to do just that...is to support them committing treason against their own country.
I, for one, am so glad to know that people who are this far left are few and far between.
ABSOLUTELY UN-BELIEVEABLE!!!!
[ edited by Linda_K on Mar 18, 2003 05:15 PM ]
posted on March 18, 2003 05:14:48 PM new
My point has nothing to do with any particular religious sect. The point is that the Pope has proclaimed that god is some sort of majoritarian democracy deity.
To wit: the more countries agree on an action, the more god agrees with it.
If the UN countries agree that abortion is OK, will that mean that god thinks it is OK ? If the UN countries agree that there was no virgin birth and the trinity is not true, does that mean god agrees ?
posted on March 18, 2003 05:16:13 PM new
So Helen, I take it you are also anti-abortion?
If not then that is some twisted sense or right and wrong concerning death...
Also it appears that this person would do away with out military all together... you know what, this isn't a peaceful world and the need for a strong military is a viable one, I for one do support our troops in the military action they will soon be facing.
Not in support of us giving away everything we have fought and died for...
It is too bad you and others like you have no faith in this country, you complain but I have yet to see any viable solutions come from any of you.
What guarantees of protection are you giving? What assurances that you will try and stop another 9/11 from happening here before it happens?
Why not be out there protesting about abortion, health care, elderly, jobs,... so many worthy causes, but nope you would sit here and bash our President, disrespect our fighting forces and in effect offer aid and comfort to the enemy... that is your right feel glad you live somewhere that you can express yourself that way.
I have for one think it is laughable and pathetic at best...
posted on March 18, 2003 05:24:21 PM new
I really didn't expect any understanding from you right wing republican war mongers. But every now and then, I'll make an effort to stimulate your sensory deprived dendrites. LOL!!!
posted on March 18, 2003 05:39:44 PM new
Poor Linda, don't worry...you will be safe.
I just had to answer Valleygirls comment about supporting the troops.
Now, back to the Pope...
Pope John Paul II made a strong statement Tuesday about the possible war with Iraq. The pontiff said anyone who gives up on peace will answer to God. The pope said the use of force is a last resort and should only be considered after all peaceful means are exhausted. The Vatican responded to President Bush's ultimatum for Saddam Hussein by saying anyone who believes peace is exhausted "assumes a grave responsibility before God, his own conscience and history."
Church leaders know there's bound to be conflict between the pope and any world leader who's ready for war. "Do they support the pope or the president. That's not really the question. I think all people, all leaders, all people of sane mind and strong hearts search for peace. The question is how do you get there?" Monsignor Joseph Quinn told the congregation Tuesday.
posted on March 18, 2003 06:30:26 PM new
I understnad perfectly Helen, your psycotic hatred of our President, would allow you to give aid and comfort to our enemies...
I notice Borillar is not longer posting, did he finally figure he was WRONG and now won't post here in shame?
posted on March 18, 2003 07:50:04 PM new
I didn't know you were Catholic Helen, thats interesting. What did you think of changing the Mass to English from Latin over 35 years ago?
Borillar, nope haven't seen him. He is probably out in the anti war marches. I heard on the moveon.org website that either tommorow? or the next for EVERYONE NOT TO GO TO WORK OR SCHOOL! and do not sit around and watch TV, to take to the streets.
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on March 18, 2003 08:09:12 PM new
Nearthesea,
No, I'm not Catholic. I was just trying to get the thread back on the track that Reamond had started but I guess that's not possible. LOL
Twelvepole,
You and your friends here are assuming a Nationalistic patriotism that is so focused that it is difficult for you to consider the rights of people in other countries. Like Bush, he believes that he can take off on his own and police other countries and even remove their leaders! He is assuming an unusual, authoritarian, unilateral power...especially unusual for America.
posted on March 18, 2003 08:09:17 PM new
Since when is not wishing to offend your troops a valid reason for war.
Simple minds.
Sure only the American neo-right knows what is just.
Meanwhile the lower classes pay with cuts to social welfare, and by doing the fighting for you too.
Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
You guys are after Springer style revenge.
I am deeply touched by American compassion & comradery whenever I see that show.
If there is any cultural genocide you seek it should be that ‘culture’ and I use the term loosely.
posted on March 18, 2003 08:47:39 PM new
Austbounty, shouldn't you be going down say a fond farewell to your brave men and women who are coming to help.
rights of people in other countries
What rights would that be Helen... to gas our enemies, to foster sucide bombers, to maim and cripple thousands, to starve people into submission.... yeah he has some pretty good rights there... for a short time left.
posted on March 18, 2003 08:56:57 PM new
Demonstrations have been happening all week in San Francisco. The biggest are yet to come! For those of you who think they're wrong and unpatriotic, I could care less, shove it!
posted on March 18, 2003 09:03:20 PM new
twelvepole
You twisted what I said again.
I said,
You and your friends here are assuming a Nationalistic patriotism that is so focused that it is difficult for you to consider the rights, sovereignty and dignity of people in other countries -like Bush, who believes that he can take off on his own and police other countries and even remove their leaders without regard to international law or UN charter. He is assuming an unusual, authoritarian, unilateral power...especially unusual for America.
How does George Bush have the right to remove leaders of other countries? Is this democracy in action???
posted on March 18, 2003 09:10:49 PM new
ha! Looks like Borillar got the boot for his racial remarks. Long time coming too. However, better late than never.
posted on March 18, 2003 11:15:40 PM new
1" AKA 12pole
Unlike you, I have no Gripe with the troops, you are the one that recently insulted a long list of Highly decorated US Service men & women because they didn't agree with your push for war.
You are the type that insults veterans because they don't share your belief.
Did you hate your father?
Did you 'love' your mother?
I'd say it's pretty obvious that the support for war in USA would be even less if not for calls to 'support' your troops.
It's pretty obvious 1" that you don't 'support' your troops, but only CLAIM to IF they agree with you.
Some people think the best way to 'support' them is by keeping them at home.
posted on March 19, 2003 02:31:57 AM newSome people think the best way to 'support' them is by keeping them at home.
That is not support, that is cowardice, something you appear to know alot about austbounty... when was that flight to Baghdad for human shield duty again?
posted on March 19, 2003 02:35:19 AM newMaybe he just found a place with more stimulating conversation
Translation: Got his a$$ suspended for a bit, but found a site that has more anti-war liberals than here, where they can discuss the giving away of America; without interference from those that know what life is all about.
