posted on April 19, 2003 01:57:19 PM new
Thanks Linda, I knew I remembered that 'sobered' face from back somewhere
About Jennings, well, what I don't know, will stop me from making comments that are negative BUT I have an article here, it was an interview with Jennings done after 9-11. It was interesting, he talked A LOT about American Patrioism, and in a very positive way. (Even suggesting how Patriotic he is! ) What bugged me (and no disrespect to our Canadian friends here) is that he can talk and live and enjoy this country so much, and still, he will not become a citizen of the U.S.
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on April 19, 2003 02:13:19 PM new
Near - I knew you were not referring to Bloom when you said non-embedded. I was basically saying that with Blooms untimely death, some of the remaining reporters left a bit to be desired. Reporters sent for filler reports suddenly had much bigger burdens to carry. (My fav Bloom story right now is from a friend of his at ABC that said that when Bloom found out he would be going to Iraq as well, forced him to call and order a pair of Kevlar re-enforced boots that would provide extra protection in case the wearer stepped on a landmine and offered him copies off all of his research notes on the area - With all of the competition and sniping, it just screamed class)
As for Rivera - I have a vague recollection of liking him many yeas ago. Once the talk show came along I was done so I am far from insulted when youe state your dislike
posted on April 19, 2003 02:19:48 PM new
I did not follow Bloom that much, but yes, that really does say he was a class reporter, and I was saddened to hear about him.
As for Rivera... LOL! what was up with his great 'televised, LIVE, cracking the mobs safe' (or whatever it was! ) I just couldn't get into that! Then didn't he have the KKK on his show, and get his nose punched? (when you have the KKK on your show, and you disagree with them, you better be ready to defend yourself PHYSICALLY or have super bodyguards! )
SEE I like FOX News, and not like some of their reporters!
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on April 19, 2003 02:26:26 PM new
Near - Out of curiosity, why should he? I don't think you have to be a citizen of a country to love it and love of one country does not denote any less love for another.
I love Mexico and plan to move there. For tax reasons I plan to apply for residency but will wait on citizenship until I have been there for awhile. None of these decisions have anything to do with my degree of love or devotion to either country. They will be based almost soley on financial and business aspects.
BTW - I watched his reports almost exclusively from 9-11 and I am baffled that he has ever been called to the mat for them. I thought they were strong and heartfelt and that he did a marvelous job.
BTW - Linda - I have a question - if ones love of america can be seen thru their reporting - how are they clearly unbiased? Wouldn't that clearly displayed love that you taut lend one to biased reporting? I'm not being sarcatic, I don't watch Fox or the reporters that you mention and am wondering how one achieves such a seemingly contradictory dynamic.
posted on April 19, 2003 02:34:59 PM new
Neaar -yeah - It was Al Capones safe... Istill wish I had known what he thoug he was going to find... and why no one thought to insert a fiber optic camera in there before the report to find out if it was empty or not. As for the broken nose... close - it came from being hit by a chair when a melee broke out between the guest and audience members and was then worked for all it was worth.
posted on April 19, 2003 02:44:25 PM new
neonmania - if ones love of america can be seen thru their reporting - how are they clearly unbiased? Wouldn't that clearly displayed love that you taut lend one to biased reporting? I'm not being sarcatic, I don't watch Fox or the reporters that you mention and am wondering how one achieves such a seemingly contradictory dynamic.
I can't think of one reporter I've EVER listen to or read that isn't biased at one time or another. Some do a much better job at not showing/expressing their bias than others do, imo. Then, like in all things in life, there are varying degrees to how much some show their bias.
But for the one's I speak of on Fox News....say Mort, Colmes, Mara the one's that represent the 'left slant' to the issues...I see those who disagree, sometimes adamantly...with the current administration...but when it come to things like 'if America doesn't find WoMD they'll plant them'...never is a view they take. They never come across to me as believing their country is anything other than the great country it is.
In that and other ways I make a PERSONAL judgement they love their country, while not agreeing with the direction the currently administration is taking our nation.
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
posted on April 19, 2003 02:59:00 PM new
::but when it come to things like 'if America doesn't find WoMD they'll plant them'...never is a view they take.::
Who does that? I tend to watch NBC and occasionally ABC and PBS. I have never seen a reporter or even a guest on one of the round table shows say anything to that effect. I know its a fav among some of the RT posters here but I have never seen any such claim made by any credible source.
Also I think that you sometimes mistake quesioning the actions and decisions of leadership for a lack of support for the nation as a whole. Most of the time, those that question do so out of love for their country and respect for its reputation. Blind loyalty is neccesarily synonomous with patriotism.
posted on April 19, 2003 03:26:55 PM new
LOL - Blind loyalty? Anytime I say anything positive about this country that I love, you 'who slant left' use that quote. It's not about blind loyality. It's disagreeing with those here who ONLY put their country's actions on the table to be disected bit by bit...and come to the conclusion that America is always acting inappropriately....to constandly, rather than occassionally criticize our actions. Those same people never 'tear' apart the actions of those like Saddam.....or the actions of those who support terrorism. That's what I mean. I sure don't feel like my support of my country should be taken as blind loyalty....but I am proud of my country and will definately stand behind her against our enemies. And I do give our government the credit I feel it's due when another nation is against us. Say...like France, Germany and Russia and their behavior.
If my husband told me something, and a person I don't know told me something different, I DO tend to believe the person/nation I have been able to trust in the past. Yes, I am very biased towards my country....and don't find that abnormal in any way shape or form. And I'll never apologize for being that way. But blind loyality, to me, means one feels their country NEVER does anything wrong. I don't feel that way.....I just find more positives than a lot here do. And I'm not in the minority thinking/feeling that way either.
I have never held the belief that because one questions the action of any current administration, they don't love America. I do question those who rarely say anything good about our country...are critical about everything we do...see NO good at all in anything our country does.
If I see a poster who disagrees with something this administration is doing....but in say another post they're supporting our troops [or in anyway comes across to be as supporting our country]...I see that as being very different from one who never 'cheers' on our nation's successes. Like someone mentioned before....there are some, both on this board and in the media who come across [from the way they post] as almost being wishful that our troops had failed....all the negative predictions that were made about what was going to happen if we did this or that. And when it didn't happen....no appearance that they're glad it didn't go badly for us. Just silence....or on to another complaint about something else.
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
posted on April 19, 2003 03:33:20 PM new
gravid - No one can predict what the future holds for our nation. Not since we're taking the actions we have nor IF we had not done so.
Being pro-American, to me, doesn't mean not reading/listening, being open to hearing the oposite opinions. It just means you hear it, and make a personal decision that your country is in the right because you believe your country ABOVE another country.
To me it's like those here who believe Saddam doesn't have these weapons....against what we're being told by our representatives [both sides]. They have the full details that we the general public don't. To me, if one believes what a leader with the past history of say a Saddam says to be true over what their country says....that's not being pro-American.
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
"Being pro-American, to me, doesn't mean not reading/listening, being open to hearing the oposite opinions. It just means you hear it, and make a personal decision that your country is in the right because you believe your country ABOVE another country.
posted on April 19, 2003 03:54:20 PM new
Helen - you are very correct. I have a kitty gone crazy today who is insisting on attention and goes for it by stanting in front of my monitor. He's so damn cute with his chirping (he's not a meower, he's a chirper) that I sometimes forgo proofing before sending then I kick him off when I want to check replies.. Right now he is sharpening non existing claws on the back of my chair.
posted on April 19, 2003 03:57:57 PM new
Yea, Helen, like I'd ever expect someone like you to understand. You never appear to support anything our country does. You always have some b*tch or complaint. Try focusing on the good we are able to enjoy living here. Try focusing on the good our country has done/does for other nations. You BLINDLY follow the negative believes of anyone who has negative opinions of our country.
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
posted on April 19, 2003 04:05:15 PM new
Linda, you stated,
"Being pro-American, to me, doesn't mean not reading/listening, being open to hearing the oposite opinions. It just means you hear it, and make a personal decision that your country is in the right because you believe your country ABOVE another country.
Linda,
Forget about your feelings toward me and focus on your statement.
It's your country right or wrong and you support it no matter what.
That's crazy.
Helen
ed.to add linda's quote.
[ edited by Helenjw on Apr 19, 2003 04:12 PM ]
posted on April 19, 2003 04:29:48 PM new
Helen, Linda made a good statement, if putting your love of country over another country... then you can say I have blind loyalty also... then that really does make you anti-american now doesn't it...
Pro American does not mean that people follow blindly anything, just you lefties want to believe that because you don't believe in anything... well positive about our country... but you know what you're still living here sucking in all that freedom that others have fought and won for you... enjoy.
posted on April 19, 2003 04:48:11 PM new
Linda said more than that twelvepole.
Twelvepole, I believe that an anti-american is an individual who follows with blind obedience...with the "my country right or wrong" philosophy... because my country is better that all others.
That is what you have called a "good statement made by Linda".
I don't agree and I consider myself a good American.
posted on April 19, 2003 05:03:14 PM new
No Helen once again you are wrong.
It's like saying a child of mine isn't perfect, but he's mine and when someone points out to me an error in misjudgement he's made, I'll acknowledge it. It's not like he's my son right or wrong so I KNOW he'd never do anything wrong. That would be living in denial. Or not being willing to hear/listen to what someone else thinks is a problem with his behavior. I'll listen to their words, take them into consideration and then work on what I think needs to be corrected with him. [Make up my own mind].
That's not BLIND. That's loving my child [nation] enough to know he has faults but still trust and believe in the good that he does possess. To automatically take the side of anyone against my own child, is the unusual stance, imo.
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
[ edited by Linda_K on Apr 19, 2003 05:05 PM ]
posted on April 19, 2003 05:10:23 PM new
::Pro American does not mean that people follow blindly anything, just you lefties want to believe that because you don't believe in anything...::
That's a pretty vicious generalization. Some "lefties" believe that you must question to keep people honest. If no one questioned would Watergate have every come to light? Would Iran Contra? Would any of the half dozen or so recent big bussiness accounting scandals which have now taught us to watch like a hawk?
Power is an intoxicating thing and it tends to lead many astray and to lose objectivity. It's the questioning those people and their actions that keeps them "honest".
I think the most patriotic thing a person can do is to ask "Why?" when something does not make sense and say "Hold the Phone" when the explaination does not either. In my opinion, patriotism is when you support actions that are in the best interest of your country. It's not about supporting any one individual or group of them. While I am very open about my lack of confidence in the leadership of our current president, I would have questioned ANY person that took us into war.
I on't question and disagree because I don't love this country. I question and disagree because I do.
[ edited by neonmania on Apr 19, 2003 05:12 PM ]
posted on April 19, 2003 05:32:21 PM new
neonmania - Some "lefties" believe that you must question to keep people honest. Agreed. Both sides keeping the other side honest is important. That's one of the beautiful things about how our government is set up. And there's nothing wrong with questioning. There is, however imo, a big difference between questioning and the result being that a person's opinions always fall against their own country. Example: When those here kept screaming about 'look Bush has turned all our allies against us'. [When Germany, France and Russia started in] They didn't look at the reasons why they were doing so, or if they did they just brushed the fact that those same countries were acting in THEIR own best interest. IMO, it looked like SINCE they were against our decision, they were right and we were wrong. This is where I will support my country and I don't automatically believe, as some here do, that they MUST be right, and we're wrong.
The question is not what a man can scorn, or disparage, or find fault with, but what he can love, and value, and appreciate. J. Ruskin
I don't know. (your question about why should he become a citizen, etc)
I was thinking on that, when we were out. We were talking about that with some other people.
On a lot of levels, one has to take a stand, if you will. Maybe one of them is pride in your country, pride in your homeland, pride where you were born, where you grew up.
We were offered a job in Australia. We seriously thought of doing it. We loved Australia. There was ALOT to think about in doing something like that. Dual citizenship? all that. Finally, as much as we do like that country, we couldn't do it, it would have been a contract for quite awhile, and we really wanted to stay in this country. The country that we do have pride in. Just as Australians have pride in their country, we do in ours. Just as Canadians, Brits, etc have pride in their respective countries, we have in ours too. We felt it too big of step at this time to leave for a long period of time.
I hear people say things like wrapping yourself in the flag I always wondered exactly what that means? Is that off topic here? I don't think so.
I am really tired of that saying. I am really tired of people using their freedoms they get here, and there are A LOT of freedoms that we all take for granted. Those freedoms kept for you and me, by men and women who have fought for that flag. The flag is a symbol. But it is the symbol of the freedom of just what goes on, in places like this message board. The freedom to say anything you want. The freedom to put down your government, your President, your Congress people, the press, anything!
I've heard the peace protesters call the Bush Admin. a 'Regime' Such as 'We need to remove the Bush Regime'. If anyone really thinks this is a regime, they would surely be put into a shock to know what a real regime is. If its a regime, its a regime they would only have to put up with for 4 or 8 years, not your lifetime.
the end hey! everyone has opinions! This is America, and you have the right to yours, I have the right to mine, and no one is stopping us!
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on April 20, 2003 07:55:38 AM new
Near, I completely understand that for some people, extended overseas living is not for them. It can be for a variety of reasons but I honestly never considered patriotism to be one of them. My father has a degenerating disablity which made it very difficult for him to find work in the US. He was offered a job at a hospital in Saudi Arabia that desperately needed someone with his abilities and knowledge and recognized that coming from a teaching hospital he could train his techs to do what he eventually would not be able to. It was quite a culture shock for a good ole boy and his new wife who had never left her home state but they acceped the challenge and enjoyed their time there and he's about as much a "Go America" southern conservative as they come I am looking at my move for business reasons as well. The only commitment being made is to myself so if I don't like it I can leave but I am definitely excited about the challenges involved in starting a new company in foreign country. It doesnt mean I respect my homeland any less, I have just always been a bit nomadic and after moving all the way acoss and down this country, it's time to explore new teritories : )
As for "Wrapping Oneself in the Flag" .... I have not met many such people but there have been have been a few I would apply that statement to. For me it's people that that confuse bigotry with patriotism, call anyone that questions their (generally inherited) views a traitor or un-american, have no patience with those that would question our government and consider all other nations to not only be lesser entities but the inhabitants to be barely functioning idiots (ever listen to most people speak to someone with an accent? I have a friend for whom english is her 4th language, she is quite fluent but accented and she is constantly spoken to as though she was 8 years old) and wrap it all up in constant reminders, both verbal and symbolic, of what true patriots they are and others aren't. It's the people that think that patriotism is a contest. It's much like those that are overly religious. People that use their religion as an excuse to judge others and beat people over the head with it as though it were a stick.
Patriotism is very much like religion, deeply personal and practiced differently by each individual. On a personal level each can give great comfort and stability but they are at their worst when used to measure the merit of others.
Also for some reason, those that do portray themselves constantly as Super-Patriots seem to believe that patrotism is an American phenomenon and that the US is the axis on which the planet evolves, that any nation that chooses to disagree with a decision made by us that goes against their sense of morality or self interest is the enemy and should be dealt with accordingly
Also - although it is not a fundamental aspect, frequent name calling utilizing the word "commies" does get you on the honorable mention list
DISCLAIMER: I am not casting stones at ANYONE of these boards. Although there are some big time flag waivers here, and at least one person overly fond of calling others commies ( ) I have not seen anyone so close minded and absolute in their beliefs that I would say they have "wrapped themselves in the flag".
Of course, thats just my definition and I'm sure others can lend a different slant to the term.
As for Jennings... I remember him talking about the citizenship thing before and saying that others seemed to assign more importance to it than he did. He never considered it at all until detractors started using it against him. Personally I don't think citizenship is a measuring stick of patriotism and you can love more than one country.
Why in your post above did you seem to scoff at the concept of hiim being patriotic? Is it the citizenship issue or something else? I ask because I have heard alot of indictments of him but never the reasons behind them and I have always had a lot of respect for his reporting and wealth of knowledge.
posted on April 21, 2003 12:25:45 PM new
neo, didn't know you'd all be here on Easter
Don't know... good post, ok, but I do disagree that patriotism is akin to religion.
I don't think that, at least that is not my opinion.
My grandparents came over for Ireland, so I can't say that my family goes back to the Revolutionary War, nor the Civil War
I used to tell my grandmother that I thought it was so cool about Ireland, and I would love to go there..... she scoffed, and said basically that America is their home now. They were able to do quite well here, if they didn't leave Ireland, then they would still be dirt poor. She loved America, they did become citizens.
I still would love to see Ireland, my daughter wants to go, I know I have relatives there, but I don't consider Ireland my homeland. My grandmother considers it the place where she was born and raised. She was an American.
I don't think I have called anyone a 'commie' here on this board, or anywhere else online or in RL. I have never called anyone 'anti American' either. I may have thought 'anti American' at times... but unless you can read minds....
Art Bell Retired! George Noory is on late night coasttocoastam.com
posted on April 21, 2003 01:16:28 PM new
There are some serious misundertandings demonstrated here about what roles various news "personalities" play. What really offends me is that people like Morris know the difference and are playing on it. That column of his? Pure BS and he knows it.
First off, people need to understand the different roles in news organizations.
Reporters are people in the field. They interview sources. They collect information. They might have biases (they are human beings) but they are not supposed to show them. Most of those "embedded" in Iraq are reporters. Reporters can work for either TV news or print media. (Not all people in the field are reporters. There are some opinion writers and commentators in Iraq as well.)
There are lots of challenges to being a reporter. One is that as you grow closer to your sources, you start to identify with them, which makes it harder to report accurately and fairly on their actions. I imagine it must be very difficult for reporters who are "embedded" with troops 24/7 to be brutally honest about what they're seeing. Plus, it's pretty clear that embedded reporters are being very carefully herded by military personnel, meaning that they cannot hope to obtain the "big picture." All they can do is film or describe the action that's happening right in front of them. The Saddam statue incident is a micro-example of that ... an aerial shot revealed that the crowd was actually pretty small and the entrance to the square was guarded by U.S. tanks.
Generally, most reporters do their best to be unbiased. Anchors are another matter entirely.
In war coverage, the idea of an anchor is supposed to be that he or she provides an overview that the reporter (who's stuck in the middle of the fray) can't provide. The actual truth in TV news is that information is coming in so hard, so fast and from so many sources that many anchors just can't keep up. That means they either have to take a predetermined slant and fit all the information inside it (as Bill O'Reilly so gleefully does) or risk sounding as if they're babbling (as CNN's Aaron Brown sometimes does.) Frankly, I find Brown a good deal more trustworthy than O'Reilly, just because he does try to consider all views.
Finally, you have commentators. These are people who are NOT reporters (though some reporters, like Mara Liason, become commentators) and really, not journalists either. They are there to give their OPINION on what's happening. Any time you say "so-and-so is supposed to represent the liberal viewpoint" or "the conservative viewpoint" then the likelihood is that that person is a commendator, not a journalist.
The trouble with Fox News is that - while it's hired a lot of good journalists - it ruthlessly supresses any info that doesn't fit into its pre-conceived notion of what's going on. And that notion is usually built around conservative ideology, gussied up in patriotic garb.
People who don't understand news find a consistent "message" comforting - at least, until they think about it - and let's be frank, people don't like to think about it that much. That, I suspect, is why Fox has spiked in the ratings.
