I don't see how anyone can defend U.S. immigration policy that declares all Cubans to be valid political refugees while turning away or interning Haitian....
This is the same argument used by the Pro-Castro defenders in the U.S. and included in many of Castro's long winded speeches, round table discussions, etc..
Locally these people are always trying to pit one ethnic community or another against us (also for elections against "Jeb Bush", people tend to forget that Janet "Wacky" Reno was shipping them out by the boatloads when she was attorney general).
They ( Pro-Castro defenders ) have a huge influence in the african-american community here and have used this argument repeatedly, Funny thing is the biggotry against the hatians(also black cubans ,dominicans ,jamaicans and others of the same race but different cultural background) mainly came from them. ( I went to a 40% black highschool and saw it firsthand ). {this statement is not meant to defame or insult a community, only stating what i experienced and saw}
posted on May 6, 2003 09:36:50 AM new
This is such a silly allegation that it really shouldn't have to be refuted, but just for the record, DUH! I do NOT think Cuba is a "utopian dreamland" and I am not a "pro Castro defender." I was just pointing out that US immigration policy is not always fair. Because it isn't.
Let me break it down really simply for you,keiichem.
I am not saying Cubans should be sent back. I am saying Haitians (and Chinese, and anyone fleeing an oppressive regime) should be given the same opportunity for asylum.
I also live in Florida - in fact, I was born here - and I am acutely and unhappily aware of exactly how U.S. immigration policy works and has workedin regards to Haiti and Cuba for since 1966, when the Cuban Adjustment Act gave Cuban emigres special status. As long as they make it to U.S. shores - by any means - they are allowed to stay and usually get green cards a year later. I have no problem with this. What I have a problem with is that other nationalities fleeing similiarly hellish conditions are locked up in internment camps or shipped back.
The story that will always stick with me is that of a 12-year-old girl named Lizbet Martinez who came to this country in 1995. Lizbet, her parents and 10 other refugees were rescued at sea by the Coast Guard after leaving Cuba several days earlier. Lizbet - who wanted to express her gratitude but spoke no English - took out her violin and played the Star-Spangled Banner on the deck of the cutter. I was lucky enough to see her perform early the next year before a joint session of the Florida Legislature. She now lives in Miami and plays with a string trio.
Lizbet deserved to stay and have a happy life. I just don't see why her story should be different from that of a child from Haiti, or Guatemala, or China. (By the way, that Taiwan remark was incomprehensible. I will agree with you on one thing ... the Chinese "have" Taiwan ... almost. Its days as a free republic are certainly numbered. But surely you can't mean that Taiwan can logically absorb the tens of thousands fleeing the still-oppressive regime in mainland China?)
posted on May 6, 2003 09:46:40 AM new
There is no mandate that immigration laws and policy must to fair or equal. It is strictly up to whatever the Congress enacts and how the executive wishes to carry the policy out.
Immigration policy has never had anything to do with fairness or equality. It has always had everything to do with foreign policy and domestic political views.
No one has a right to enter this country illegally, regardless of whether it is fair or equal to allow them to enter.
posted on May 6, 2003 09:55:39 AM new
I would disagree vehemently. But other people have said it far better than me.
Like Emma Lazarus:
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.
From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. ``Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. ``Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
For those who don't recognize it, this is "The New Colossus," engraved on the base of the Statue of Liberty. For those who do recognize it, and are sneering, go right ahead.
[ edited by msincognito on May 6, 2003 10:02 AM ]
posted on May 6, 2003 11:31:04 AM new
You can disagree all you want. You do not make the laws, nor do you carry them out.
Perhaps you should volunteer to read your poetry to illegal immigrants as they are being deported.
The poem on the statue of Liberty is not law and never was.
And the only reason America lifted its lamp beside the golden door was to man the factories of the industrial revolution and to quicly populate the vast lands opened up by and owned by the railroads.
It is amazing how ignorant citizens can be about their country's history.
Immigration policy is created by domestic politics and foreign relations. It never had anything to do with Emma's poem.
posted on May 6, 2003 01:02:23 PM new
Your view of U.S. history is extremely limited and oh, by the way, dead wrong. Throughout this country's history there have been statesmen who argued in favor of a vigorous and open immigration policy - not because of the material gain (though immigrants' contributions to this nation's economic growth have been enormous) but because this broad-flung welcome has helped make America into the great nation that it now is.
You seem to feel that "domestic politics" and law should not be influenced by this country's heritage, historic ideals and morals. That raises a valid question: Since you have such a cynical and materialistic view of this nation (a view that I do not share) why in heaven's name do you still want to live here?
I would strongly suggest that before you continue to channel Pat Buchanan and the white nationalist movement, you actually do a little fact-checking. Try reading John F. Kennedy's "A Nation of Immigrants," one of the seminal works on the topic. Kennedy's work is comprehensive and scholarly, but he generally uses small words. You shouldn't have too much of a problem.
As far as the law goes, I am familiar with it enough to know that prior to 9/11, the United States had steadily been increasing the levels of legal immigration, and moving toward a more equal policy, with overall positive results. The law is still unfair, however, and needs more work. That's what we do in a democracy, by the way - perfection may not always be guaranteed, but you have to keep trying.
[ edited by msincognito on May 6, 2003 01:04 PM ]
posted on May 6, 2003 02:52:41 PM new
What a load of BUNK. JFK a scholar ??
Our immigration policies have never had anything to do with largesse towards the huddled masses.
As usual ms, you don't know what you're talking about.
And prior to 9-11 our immigration laws were basically being ignored and unenforced which had nothing to do with being "fair", and everything to do with importing cheap labor.
[ edited by REAMOND on May 6, 2003 02:56 PM ]
[ edited by REAMOND on May 6, 2003 02:57 PM ]
posted on May 6, 2003 02:58:29 PM new
Sorry for the mistake, but it is understandable as you all seem to sound alike and all beat the same baseless drum.
posted on May 6, 2003 03:38:06 PM new
Well, he's apparently been too busy making all the policy decisions for the U.S. government for the last 227 years to busy himself with details. How else would he know that when James Madison said "Our kind reception of emigrants is very proper, but it is dictated more by benevolent than by interested consideration ...." he really meant to add "NOT!" (That's kinda weird, given that James Madison is often viewed as a semi-hemi-demi-god to these ultra-right-wingers.) Or that when Franklin D. Roosevelt said "Remember, remember always, that all of us... are descended from immigrants and revolutionists." - that intended to go on to add "And that's bad, 'cause everyone knows they're good for nothin'."
As for John F. Kennedy being a scholar .... how many Pulitzer Prizes do you have, reamond ... and how many times were you elected President, precisely? And have you read the book? Because I have. And it's well-done.
[ edited by msincognito on May 6, 2003 03:38 PM ]
posted on May 6, 2003 04:05:14 PM new
Ah, Bear, you make it so easy.
Are you not aware that undocumented immigrants (and in most cases, legal immigrants) are not entitled to welfare and health care benefits? There is one exception - emergency room care - but otherwise, the Immigration Reform Act of 1990 is very clear and extends to children. For the record, those illegal immigrants legalized by the 1986 Immigration Act still showed a far lower rate of using social services than native-born Americans in the same income bracket.
posted on May 6, 2003 08:55:28 PM new
When the Statue of Liberty was erected and those immortal words were echoed, we were country that could absorb an inumerable amount of people, we didn't have a welfare system and those that did arrive worked for every penny that they got.
But just like time, we the US cannot stand still and must move forward into the 21st century and that is a country flooded with illegal immigrants, we don't not have the ability to absorb anyone that wants to come here.
With 6% unemployment and other economic problems, why should we add more burden with immigrants? Especially illegal immigrants.
Times change and if it would make you feel better MS, then I would have them sandblast those words off of the base or just make them an historical footnote in our history... which is where they belong in the past and not in the present.
I wish we would close the door for a decade and then see where we are... then we may allow some to immigrate here.
Illegals should be dealt with harshly and swiftly... 5 years hard labor; unless both parents are citizens any child born here goes back with the parents; bounties on live catching illegals; Make Mexico tighten its border on their side or face some stiff penalties...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on May 6, 2003 08:56 PM ]
posted on May 6, 2003 11:13:15 PM new
::Make Mexico tighten its border on their side or face some stiff penalties... ::
Why? You tighten your border when you want to lock residents in or outsiders out. Mexico doesn't do either. If we want a controled border - it's our responsibility to control it ourselves.
[ edited by neonmania on May 6, 2003 11:50 PM ]
posted on May 7, 2003 01:07:06 AM newI have no problem with this. What I have a problem with is that other nationalities fleeing similiarly hellish conditions are locked up in internment camps or shipped back.
? And what is guantanamo? or Clintons' Wetfoot Dryfoot decree? as i posted earlier not all cubans come into the U.S. some ARE sent back or they are dispersed through out the world to host asylum countries. Later they can apply LEGALLY to enter if they want.
I also live in Florida - in fact, I was born here
YAAAAAAAAHOOOOO!!!! Guess What I was born and raised in south florida.
(Time to take my cuban hat off and put my stars and stripes on)
But surely you can't mean that Taiwan can logically absorb the tens of thousands fleeing the still-oppressive regime in mainland China?)
No, but they have a starting point to legally work from. There are also plenty of great free countries in that region they can seek asylum with.
I know, eat with, talk with, have relations with, laugh with, and all around be friends with Hatians, Cubans, Nicaraguans, Venezuelans, Colombians, jamaicans, Dominicans , Bahamians , Chinese, 1 mexican ( very very few here), argentinian , palestinians, lebanese and so on. most are here legally some are not. They are here for economic reasons, because they truly want to be future Americans, fleeing political repression, fleeing the communist Guerillas, basically anything that can happen in this world. My point is, that they ARE HERE!!
you stated your doubts about Taiwan absorbing tens of thousands ( from one country ). What about the U.S. absorbing hundreds of millions from the world??
I Was in school during the Mariel boat lift. One day decent classes next day wall to wall kids not speaking a word of english different culture, nervous , loud , not understanding rules. Not enough books ,Paper, seats, rooms etc... and then the nicaraguans fleeing the sandinistas , some time there the hatian mass exodus. Now we have the venezuelans coming because of Chavez, the colombians have been coming for a while too, the argentinians also. Until you live IN IT you might never truly comprehend that we cant absorb everybody everytime. Miami alone is stretched way past capacity in every aspect, South florida for that matter too.
AMERICA is GOOD!!! we HELP!! the whole world. but we cannot kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
posted on May 7, 2003 05:44:10 AM newWhy? You tighten your border when you want to lock residents in or outsiders out. Mexico doesn't do either. If we want a controled border - it's our responsibility to control it ourselves.
Fine, that is why I said put bounties on capturing illegals... only paid on live bodies.... and once caught 5 years hard labor awaits them... children get sent back to whatever relative would take them...
or Mexican orphanage... I have no sympathy or compassion for illegals...
posted on May 7, 2003 07:40:57 AM new
::Fine, that is why I said put bounties on capturing illegals... only paid on live bodies.... and once caught 5 years hard labor awaits them.::
Get real Twellve. First you complain about the burdens on the system and then you advocate that the system pay 100% of living expenses for 5 years.
Do you want to eliminate illegal immigration or torture foreigners. Think of all of the expenses involved in your concept. We are talking about building additional prisons, hiring additional personel, food. Wouldn't these funds be better invested in beefing up INS? Wouldn't you rather put your efforst and finances towards eliminating the crime as opposed to punishing offenders?
posted on May 7, 2003 07:53:07 AM new
msincognito...
Ah but you make it so easy.....
That may be the law but it isn't being enforced. County hospitals in Harris county & through out Texas (and through out the U.S.A.) are regularly overloaded by ILLEGALS.
posted on May 7, 2003 10:11:45 AM new
We also need to make the Congress fish or cut their line.
We have tough immigration laws on the books, but the Congress will not allow them to be strictly enforced, AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ACCEPTING THE HUDDLED MASSES, but has everthing to do with cheap labor and new voters.
Either provide for the laws to be enforced or change the laws and face the voters.
The United States can not be a life raft for the world - it will sink us.
posted on May 7, 2003 05:57:28 PM new
Good points Neon... but that hard labor will be worked on farms and as field hands and those farmers that could use them will pay for their "help" to the prison system, sort of a contract labor system... doing the same work only for whatever a prisoner makes a day for 5 years...
Might disuade others from coming....
Only other solution is too drastic and would cause such a commotion....
posted on May 7, 2003 06:08:10 PM new
::Good points Neon... but that hard labor will be worked on farms and as field hands and those farmers that could use them will pay for their "help" to the prison system, sort of a contract labor system... doing the same work only for whatever a prisoner makes a day for 5 years... ::
So who provides the gun toting security to watch over these far flung field hands?
Also, isn't part of your problem with illegals that they take jobs from citizens? Wouldn' these jobs that you propose having the prisoners work be jobs that are subsequently not being worked by citizens and since the money is going to the prison system, isn't it money being taken out of the local economy?
Again I ask... wouldn't it be better to invest the time and money into eliminating the problem rather than punishing the offenders?
posted on May 7, 2003 07:55:14 PM new
You're not offering any solutions so you must be part of the problem...
The jobs are already filled by 90% illegals, more jobs would be created as guards, that would replace those lost to illegals... INS would oversee everything, so their man-power needs would increase...
More jobs for citizens and better paying...
Like I said before money would come from "renting" out these illegals... plus with todays electronic shackles, they can easily be watched... plus we could allow the guards to shoot to kill... after all these people have no rights... they are not citizens...
I still would make Mexico tighten its side of the border, whether you think it is their reponsibility or not... it is still majorly their people... if not we try some economic sanctions...
But when it comes right down to it, my favorite solution would be to annex Mexico... that would solve alot of problems, hell most want to be here anyway...
posted on May 7, 2003 07:58:28 PM new
As if we really need thousands more, undocumented, uninsured illegal aliens taxing the overloaded health care & welfare systems.
posted on May 7, 2003 08:43:32 PM new
::You're not offering any solutions so you must be part of the problem... ::
Did you miss the three separate times where I suggested taking all this money your propose spending and using it to beef up border patrol?
::The jobs are already filled by 90% illegals,::
Huge stereotype, strangles your whole module. Besides, even if true, the have not been caught, not under arrest and their pay is still contributing to the local economy.
::more jobs would be created as guards, that would replace those lost to illegals... INS would oversee everything, so their man-power needs would increase... ::
Ah - and this is a better idea than putting those agents on the borders and entrance ports to eliminate the problem at it's source because......?
::plus we could allow the guards to shoot to kill... after all these people have no rights... they are not citizens... ::
If you are going to introduce them into our criminal justice system - you automatically give them rights.
::I still would make Mexico tighten its side of the border, whether you think it is their reponsibility or not...::
Please justify the rationale which allows the US to dictate emigration policies to other sovereign nations?
::if not we try some economic sanctions...::
Dead in the water before they pass thru congress thanks to big money donations from the manufacturing industry when they find out that these sanctions will be answered in kind by thing like increased export tariffs from their Mexican based plants.
::hell most want to be here anyway... ::
Ah, but you misunderstand. The majority don't want to be here. They just want a better standard of living. They want to be able to make a decent wage and care for their families. I have a group of friends who are Mexican nationals, all of whom worked legally in this country for large sums of money. All of whom could have applied for and received citizenship with no problems what so ever. That wasn't their wish. They love their country, they love their families and their culture. They were here to do what needed to be done to take care of their families and give them the life they felt they deserved.
posted on May 7, 2003 08:45:22 PM newEither provide for the laws to be enforced or change the laws and face the voters. The United States can not be a life raft for the world - it will sink us. Very true.
---------
davebraun - What healthcare system?
That would be the one that's breaking the bank in a lot the southern boarder hospitals from the illegals that cross over the board for their 'free healthcare'. The American Taxpapers are paying for it. Hospitals closing, operating in the red, paying patients paying more to subsidize all the non-paying illegals. THAT FREE healthcare system.
posted on May 7, 2003 09:11:13 PM new
OK that explains the border states but please explain the closures, cut backs and general cost cutting procedures going on in hospitals everywhere else in the country. Illegals are a lovely scapegoat but rampant mismanagement in the For-Profit healthcare system carries the lions share of reponsibility.
posted on May 7, 2003 09:52:06 PM new
Carefull with all that eye rolling - you could get dizzy. I'm still waiting to hear how hospital systems in areas that do not have problems with illegals are having the same problems?
posted on May 7, 2003 09:59:56 PM newAgain I ask... wouldn't it be better to invest the time and money into eliminating the problem ...
Neo
I do not think we can ever eliminate the problem. Without bombing oppressive regimes (everybody complains), arresting foriegn officials who misappropriate funds given by us (everybody complains), basically parenting other countries, this will never happen.
[ edited by Twelvepole on May 6, 2003 08:56 PM ]