neonmania
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posted on May 7, 2003 10:22:45 PM new
Keiichem - immigration will never be stopped but if the Border Patrol was better funded a lot of the problems could be drastically reduced. Of course the Mexico problem could be solved with things as simple as foreign maquiladora owners sharing a little of the wealth and increasing wages for their workers. The flip side of the coin is that when our economy suffers, so does our southern neighbors. If people are not working, they are not buying many of the luxury items being produced in Mexico, production levels drop, employees are laid off or factories are shut don entirely and whole towns whose economy is largely based on the factories fall to the wayside.
It's an evil circle of co-dependency that a lot of people don't recognize until they really look at how many of our goods are made in Mexico. How many americans do you think are aware that 90% of all TVs sold here are manufactured in Baja (if you want to be really scared - do a little survey and find out how many think that Baja California is the southern tip of California and part of the US).
[ edited by neonmania on May 7, 2003 10:23 PM ]
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keiichem
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posted on May 7, 2003 11:41:15 PM new
Keiichem - immigration will never be stopped
No i was talking about illegal immigration.
Of course the Mexico problem could be solved with things as simple as foreign maquiladora owners sharing a little of the wealth ....
Your right but the mexican government has the responsibility to fix that.
when our economy suffers, so does our southern neighbors
even more of a reason for them to boogie and get into shape.
How many americans do you think are aware that 90% of all TVs sold here are manufactured in Baja
dont know but almost everything i sell from " high-end stores" is made in china.(very sad)
Neo my view with illegal immigration is: i dont blame as a whole the people, they are only trying to make do any way possible. I do blame their governments. They are the ones that have to be responsible for their own. I know very little about Mexico but where is the money from the oil they sell, tourism, manufacturing, agriculture and mining? The corruption is what kills these countries and hurt their own people. (include also 80% of countries out there)
What do we do?
Find a way of not awarding their continued corruption by any means possible. At the same time stop awarding the people doing the illegal entries with amnesty (you will never be able to send a clear message if you do).
And for the sake of all fairness i am including my own there. It is time to cap Castro's pressure release valve. The opposition is visible and growing stronger, now is the time let the pot boil over in Cuba.
[ edited by keiichem on May 7, 2003 11:42 PM ]
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neonmania
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posted on May 8, 2003 12:38:57 AM new
Keiichem - Mexico unfortunately suffered from rampant government corruption for decades. The state owned oil company was financially gutted by past administrations. Current president Vincente Fox is working towards bringing the country back on track but it is a long and arduous trail and he has a great deal of opposition. Regional corruption still exists although efforts over the past few years do finally allow for a glimpse t the end of the tunnel. Right now, they are burdered heavily with the sins of the past. Although their GDP has shown an increase this year, their debt is equal to 25% of their income right now, their main goal for the year is simply to keep it from increasing.
Mexico also gets a great deal of income from nationals here in the US. In addition to individuals sending money home to their familes their are groups of Mexican business people in the US that have banded together according to their home state to invest in Mexico. They set up private loans for people wanting to start businesses, build factories to employ the locals, etc.
As for oil revenues, they actually are looking at greater returns than expected right now but much of that surplus may have to be redirected to subsidise their agriculture, part willgo to pay down debts and part will go into a special fund to compensate for periods when oil prices drop below anticipated rates which had formerly been depleted.
It's going to take a long time for Mexico to get its feet back under them as a nation, but they are putting forth a legitimate effort, something that we should be working with them closely to insure the success and continuation of since if I remember correctly (perhaps Prof will correct me if Iam wrong) Fox is limited to only one term. Right now there a is great deal of effort on the part of both the citizens and government to get their act together and the growth in the GDP this quarter is proof of this considering that they were operating at a loss this time last year.
With time and decent leadership Mexico has the potential to be influential player in international circles but the most important step with be greater effort to combatting the very subject you mentioned... corruption.
OK, that and a seemingly cultural indifference to time  (Joking but Prof may be the only one that gets it)
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profe51
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posted on May 8, 2003 05:20:41 AM new
I get it all right 
If you can't answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.
- Elbert Hubbard
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Twelvepole
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posted on May 8, 2003 05:40:25 AM new
Beef up the Border Patrol? How? They catch over 1 million now...
They tightend down the border a few years ago and people b*tched because the "poor illegals" had to go through the desert area in eastern CA and started dieing...
Hospitals are not the same as State provided Healthcare systems... Hospitals only get involoved with emergencies, which they cannot turn away...nor should they, they should however be allowed to abort any fetus not of at least one parent being a US citizen and here LEGALLY
As far as TV's are concerned, you are correct, cheap cheap labor...
Why should we help Mexico? Wouldn't that make even more dependent on the US now?
Making a "soverign" nation do something is done all the time...
After watching the History Channel, what an idea... having Scout/Snipers practice along the border... moving targets and all shapes and sizes.... that would be solution I could live with...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
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Helenjw
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posted on May 8, 2003 06:19:33 AM new
After Iran and North Korea, Mexico may be next, Twelvepole! A regime change! Aha! Oil too!
If Bush remains in office, your dream and my nightmare may come true.
Helen
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Linda_K
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posted on May 8, 2003 06:33:47 AM new
Once again Helen....blame America first. Maybe, just maybe Mexico and all countries could take care of their own and *not* expect America to make all their problems right.
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Helenjw
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posted on May 8, 2003 06:58:14 AM new
Sure, Linda. Maybe if we don't take care of *them* first. Cram it Linda.
Linda, I have watched while you have been pounded mercilessly with counter arguments to your position, during which time you manage to insert the blame America first argument.
It doesn't work anymore Linda. Find a new line because this one is b-o-r-i-n-g.
It's bigotry to think that you are a better American than other citizens in this country based on who you support politically.
Helen
I have better things to do than sit here and read your nonsense all day.
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neonmania
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posted on May 8, 2003 08:53:26 AM new
::Maybe, just maybe Mexico and all countries could take care of their own and *not* expect America to make all their problems right.::
And maybe, just maybe, you should learn to discern the difference between me suggesting and Mexico expecting.
Maybe just maybe my suggestion that the US should help Mexico in its goals was dircted towards advice and consulting as opposed to financial aid.
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neonmania
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posted on May 8, 2003 09:04:44 AM new
::Why should we help Mexico? Wouldn't that make even more dependent on the US now? ::
Why does everydody think that the only way to solve a problem is to throw money at it or bomb it?
Why is it that you feel we have the right to invade and bomb other countries that we feel are a danger to us but not the responsibility to hep the ones that are benficial to us?
Why can't the help be in things as simple as consulting and training projects? Mexico City officials recently hired Guiliani and friends to come in and help them figure out how to get the crime situation in Mexico City under control. These are the types of things that create INdependence.
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Linda_K
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posted on May 8, 2003 12:00:58 PM new
UhOH Helen's lost her temper again. LOL
Helen...Cram it Linda. Can't stand the truth or what?
Linda, I have watched while you have been pounded mercilessly with counter arguments to your position, during which time you manage to insert the blame America first argument. HINT - DON'T WATCH....DON'T READ....USE THE IGNORE BUTTON.
It doesn't work anymore Linda. Find a new line because this one is b-o-r-i-n-g. You take care of Helen...I'll take care of Linda.
It's bigotry to think that you are a better American than other citizens in this country based on who you support politically. I'll always support my country Helen....you can support anyone or any country you'd like to. I've NEVER claimed to be a better American....I just side with my country's decisions more than you appear to.
I have better things to do than sit here and read your nonsense all day. ANOTHER HINT.....no one's forcing you to do anything.
-----------------
neonmania - And maybe, just maybe, you should learn to discern the difference between me suggesting and Mexico expecting. Geee.....did your name even come up in what I wrote? I don't think it did. My statement was not directed at your or anything you said. It was an independant statement from what I've read about President Fox's expectations from the US. It's not always about you, neonmania.
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neonmania
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posted on May 8, 2003 12:17:30 PM new
Sorry Linda- I thought you were posting in response to comments actually made here as opposed to something you read sometime at some point and did not bother to reference in your statement.
Could you post the statements you are reffering to so that others can see wwhat was actually said and respond?
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bear1949
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posted on May 8, 2003 01:42:20 PM new
OOOOOOOOOH.
Helen is feeling testy today.
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Helenjw
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posted on May 8, 2003 02:11:20 PM new
Who me??? That's not testy. LOL!
I'm just getting warmed up.
Helen
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neonmania
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posted on May 8, 2003 02:19:14 PM new
We actually got this thread on an interesting tpoic and were keeping keeping it there.... could we please not turn it into a set of personal attacks and still another pissing contest?
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Helenjw
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posted on May 8, 2003 02:32:58 PM new
There's no "pissing contest" here, neon.
I answer every comment that I see which is directed to me. I don't think that Bear intended to start a pissing contest.
Restate your question to Linda. Good Luck.
Helen
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Linda_K
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posted on May 8, 2003 03:34:39 PM new
Helen....why don't you just go edit some more of your posts.
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neonmania
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posted on May 8, 2003 03:48:35 PM new
Linda - were you going to post the speech made by Fox that inspired your comments that Mexico should take care of themselves and not expect the US to make all of their problems right?
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Linda_K
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posted on May 8, 2003 04:23:22 PM new
wrong, neonmania - It was your request that I do so.
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neonmania
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posted on May 8, 2003 04:29:56 PM new
I never said that it wasn't. You tossed a comment into the conversation that you say was not related to the conversation actually being held but rather to something else that you heard at another time. In order for others to evluate and discuss the merits of the comment it's only fair that we know what it was and the context in which it was made.
It was your intention to add to the discussion wasn't it? Why else would you enter it?
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Linda_K
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posted on May 8, 2003 04:46:17 PM new
neonmania - Why else would you enter it?
Because YOU became defensive and took my statement personally, thinking I had directed it to your statements. I didn't. And I have pointed out to you that it wasn't directed to what you said.
..my statement: Maybe, just maybe Mexico and all countries could take care of their own and *not* expect America to make all their problems right. You're the one turning a very simple statement into all this. Let it go, neonmania. It was a general statement of a position I hold for all that American does for other countries and that I feel very few appreciate.
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neonmania
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posted on May 8, 2003 05:24:06 PM new
::Because YOU became defensive::
No linda- I am referring to why you would make the initial statement.
::.my statement: Maybe, just maybe Mexico and all countries could take care of their own and *not* expect America to make all their problems right. ::
Yes- that is the statement I am reffering to. You stated that you you made the comment, not in response to the suggestion made just previous that included a suggestion that the US should help to insure that Mexicos efforts are sucessfull but rather in response to "something you read concerning Fox's expectations of america". Now those expectations can hardly be discussed if if we don't know what they are.
::You're the one turning a very simple statement into all this. Let it go, neonmania.::
So does that mean that you are not going to provide any info on the substance of those expectations?
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neonmania
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posted on May 8, 2003 06:54:03 PM new
::It was a general statement of a position I hold for all that American does for other countries and that I feel very few appreciate. ::
Since you won't state what the expectations are that you disagree with, perhaps you can expand a little on the things that Mexico should be demonstrating gratitude for....
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Twelvepole
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posted on May 8, 2003 08:27:06 PM new
I think Fox has some Al Queda link... yeah that is it, Fox is hiding Al Queda terrorists in Mexico...
Problem Solved...
Thanks Helen, great idea...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
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neonmania
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posted on May 8, 2003 08:35:55 PM new
ROFL! Shut up Twelve ;P
[ edited by neonmania on May 8, 2003 08:37 PM ]
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Helenjw
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posted on May 9, 2003 08:39:43 AM new
Just sneaking in during the lull between *matches*.
You, Whoever You Are
You, whoever you are!...
All you continentals of Asia, Africa, Europe, Australia, indifferent of place!
All you on the numberless islands of the archipelagoes of the sea!
All you of centuries hence when you listen to me!
All you each and everywhere whom I specify not, but include just the same!
Health to you! good will to you all, from me and America sent!
Each of us is inevitable,
Each of us is limitless—each of us with his or her right upon the earth,
Each of us allow'd the eternal purports of the earth,
Each of us here as divinely as any is here.
Walt Whitman
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hibbertst
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posted on May 9, 2003 09:17:18 AM new
"Like I said before money would come from "renting" out these illegals... plus with todays electronic shackles, they can easily be watched... plus we could allow the guards to shoot to kill... after all these people have no rights... they are not citizens"
You have it exactly right twelvepole. Isn't it obvious the Frightened Right wants a return to the Plantation system. Round up those illegals , put them in shackles and force those brown skinned scum to work. If they step out of line, hang the bastards, drag them behind a pickup truck or, better yet, bomb those little monkeys BEFORE they step out of line. Teach those losers the American way.
We could elect a few leaders (overseers) by fiat, who could then put 95% of us to work as providers to the Plantation system in order to enrich the already rich 5% who will lounge comfortably on their purple linened beds of ease in the luxurious White Manse, toting up their ill-gotten gains, surrounded by legions of iniquitous miscreants and assorted toadies, and amuse themselves by issuing scurrilous threats against the villian(s) du jour and saccharine perfidies to lakeys, who will then spread these brayings throughout the tortured land.
Might even make a decent storyline for a movie: GONE WITH THE CONSTITUTION, starring George Bush as the Massah, Retch Button, and introducing the smoldering Condi Rice as his obsequious bondslave and Delphic paramour.
Directed by Dick Cheney; Produced by Don Rumsfeld: Financed by Halliburton & Bechtel: Technical adviser: Ken Lay......
Later
(people don't need to be citizens to be afforded the protections of the Constitution, as we used to know it. Does Gitmo mean anything to you?)
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REAMOND
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posted on May 9, 2003 01:13:37 PM new
people don't need to be citizens to be afforded the protections of the Constitution, as we used to know it
If they are aliens or illegal aliens they DO NOT enjoy the same constitutional protections as citizens, aliens never have had the same rights as citizens.
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hibbertst
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posted on May 9, 2003 02:05:34 PM new
REAMOND There you go again, getting your panties all in a bunch. I cannot find the word "same" in my post, where is it?
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keiichem
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posted on May 10, 2003 12:39:07 AM new
....Right now there a is great deal of effort on the part of both the citizens and government to get their act together....
Neo
The little I hear from my end is that; the far left has a pretty tight chokehold on Fox's maneuvers.
Dont know if he will be able to do any good.
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