posted on May 16, 2003 08:16:56 PM new
Neon, if the rampant abuse of illegal crossings was as bad along our northern border as our southern, I would join Bear in planting land mines there also...
Bear that would be a great idea, I kind of like the idea of getting the sniper schools to practice there, think of all the live moving targets they could practice on...
posted on May 16, 2003 08:42:26 PM newKill all the Latinos? Nah....If they stay on their side of the border, there isn't a problem.
Careful bear, you may give yourself away suggesting that latinos have a side of the border...slips count
I control 15 miles of fence on the border, and my family in Mexico controls the other side. Bring a load of mines and a bunch of your bubbas from the shootem-up club, we'll meet you at the gate with Federal Marshals.
If you can't answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.
- Elbert Hubbard
posted on May 16, 2003 08:42:43 PM new
::Also haven't heard of a problem with Illegal Canadian immigrants entering the US. ::
I know 2 myself. there are a great deal of people in this country illegally other than Latinos and the Canadian border is commonly used as well.
::Its getting REALLY EASY to Pizz off some of you BLEADING HEART LIBERALS. ::
Quite honestly, I'm not pissed. I digusted. I'm disgusted that people like you and Twelve can sit home on your computers in your comfortable homes and wish death upon people that are doing nothing more than trying to build a halfway decent standard of living for themselves and their family. I'm disgusted at the arogance that that makes you believe that you are somehow more entitled to a decent life for no reason other than where you were born. And I am saddened at your complete lack of compassion.
::Why don't you just move down to S Texas and open your own reception center for them. Call it Bleading Heart Liberals are PRO Illegal Immigrants. ::
Why should I move to South Texas Bear - do you not pay attention? I live in San Diego. I'm 15 minutes from the border and my taxes do assist in paying the medical expenses of illegals and quite frankly, I don't mind. I've spent a lot of time on the other side of the border and I've seen conditions that any one of us would run from in a day. I have no problem with people fleeing a bad situation in order to try to build a life for themselves and their family. No human being should have to live under the conditions that I see people living in just 20 miles from my home.
posted on May 16, 2003 08:50:21 PM new
::I guess that since Neon lives in So Cal she doesn't see the problem.::
Before you start tackling political and immigration issues Bear perhap you should master geography. Grab a map and check out what is on the other side of SoCals border. Check out the demographics for SoCal. Do you really think I am unaware of illegals?
posted on May 16, 2003 09:07:08 PM new
Prof.....this whole discussion was and still is centered on ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS making ILLEGAL BORDER crossings. If you are conductiong a LEGAL Business transaction, crossing the border is one thing. If you have a Legal VISA, I don't have a problem with it.
Since your family are land barons, how many illegals are working your property on the US side of the border.
If you are crossing the border ILLEGALLY, I have a problem with it.
And in general so does the US government. That is why there are quota's on immigration. That is why most all the Immigrant detention facilities are staying full.
Neon.....If you don't have a problem with it, why not just remove the check point on the American side of the border in South California, let all those Mexicans/Hispanics/Lations in and make them California citizens. As long as they stay there in California, I don't have a problem.
As if the California economy could stand anymore loafers taxing its already overloaded welfare system.
[ edited by bear1949 on May 16, 2003 09:10 PM ]
posted on May 16, 2003 09:16:26 PM new
And Prof, there are plenty of land owners (some of which share fences with you) that would welcome the opportunity to halt the illegals crossing THEIR property, so we'll just exempt yours.
posted on May 16, 2003 09:27:15 PM new
So bear, I don't get it, on the one hand you ask me how many illegals are WORKING on my property (I don't know, I don't ask, you see, they are busy WORKING, and get paid 10 dollars an hour) and on the other hand, you talk about "LOAFERS" taxing the california welfare system. So which is it, workers or loafers? And while we're at it, could you please outline how it is that an illegal alien becomes a part of any state's WELFARE system? You people are always bantying this about, but I have never seen a reasonable, systematic explanation of how this occurs. Please enlighten us with facts, rather than the same old worn out saws. I'd like to know how this happens. All of the indocumentados that I know are very hard workers and do not partake of the government dole. Maybe the ones you know personally are different, a bunch of LOAFERS. Please ask them to describe to you in detail how they managed to become part of the WELFARE system, so you can enlighten us here.
Finally, it seems to me that your President, He Who Has Vanquished Al Qaeda, should be tackling this problem. What do you suppose is holding him up on this bear? Haven't heard you #*!@ about a president who has done NOTHING to stem the tide so far....
If you can't answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.
- Elbert Hubbard
posted on May 16, 2003 09:29:09 PM newAnd Prof, there are plenty of land owners (some of which share fences with you) that would welcome the opportunity to halt the illegals crossing THEIR property, so we'll just exempt yours
gosh....thanks..
If you can't answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.
- Elbert Hubbard
posted on May 16, 2003 10:12:46 PM new
I know exactly were the illegals are, loafing outside the local building supply looking to pick up day labor, snoozing in the fields for hours on end, busing the tables in most of the restaurants, making up the rooms in most of the hotels & motels, working as aides in the skilled nursing facilities, sewing in the sweatshops of LA for $4.- a day, cleaning the homes of America's affluent, staffing the day care centers and working as nannies for upper class America. I also know where they are not; at the Department of Social Services where you are required to be a US Citizen to receive aide.
In some way shape or form these hard working people touch the lives of everyone in this country in a positive way on a continual basis.
You on the other hand are a manifestation of negative energy.
posted on May 17, 2003 05:17:57 AM new
The cultural traditions of Texas are Mexican.
The Mexican vaqueros,black Africans and Tajenos formed the keystone of the American cowboy tradition. History is rife with the sagas of these people.
.............................................
"As a proportion of the population, the active participation of Hispanic native and immigrant residents in the struggle for independence of Texas from Spain and Mexico was equal to or greater in specific battles than that of resident immigrants from the United States of the North"--Don Guillermo
PRUCOL status describes only a tiny fraction of aliens in this country. Most undocumented aliens would never want this status, as it makes them visible to the INS, and the likelyhood that they would qualify is small. In spite of today's relaxed attitude towards illegals already living inside the country, the threat of deportation is still a big concern for most. PRUCOL aliens are defined as living in the U.S. with the “knowledge and permission or acquiescence” of the INS, and it is further explained that the INS has no plans to deport them. This just doesn't describe a very large portion of immigrants and I doubt this is the cause of the welfare system's overload...I don't suppose the economy has anything to do with it...just a thought.
If you can't answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.
- Elbert Hubbard
posted on May 17, 2003 06:37:27 AM new
As I suspected from other threads, Profe you ARE part of the problem and have nothing to contribute to the solution.
You say you pay them $10/hour how much do you report you pay?
Neon, I too have lived in San Diego and to try to compare TJ and Baja with the rest of Mexico is ridiculous. Tourism and the sports books bring LOTS of US dollars there.
You and Profe, hibbertst, davebraun seem to think it is the United States' responsibility to give all these illegals everything that a legal immigrant has and those legally immigrated here may of waited years to get here.
We have a immigration system, it has a quota for a reason, those bypassing that are nothing more than criminals and not petty criminals, but in the big picture end up being quite larcenous in doing so.
President Bush should be doing something and that is end NAFTA and FORCE the Mexicans to control their side of the border.
After all Fox is trying to guilt the President into giving out visas like candy...
posted on May 17, 2003 06:45:41 AM new
Obviously, the U.S. Mexican border is not being controled. Since 1995, over 2200 people have died trying to cross the border at unguarded points. Most die of thirst or dehydration from diarrhea caused by drinking dirty water. To allow a border control strategy that leads to so many deaths and suffering is clearly a human rights violation. The callous comments stated on this thread are disgraceful and not representative of ideals that should define an American viewpoint.
The following comment was made by Jonn Fife, head of Human Borders. This organization has 2,000 volunteers tending thirty-eight water stations along popular crossing routes. (May 26 2003 issue of The Nation)
"You find all kinds of patterns," Fife says keeping an eye on the window as Kelly eases us along, "Some people lie down and put their IDs beside them so their families will know. Other folks will get delirious and start taking their clothes off. You find bodies out here just filled with choya cactus spines, from where they took off running. One guy hung himself up here a couple of weeks ago."
Bush, with his invasion of Iraq, abandoned a search for Al Qaida terrorists just as he abandoned the resolution of this very serious border problem.
posted on May 17, 2003 07:39:11 AM new
How is it a human rigts violation for someone that is not even a citizen of this country and is ILLEGALLY coming across the border?
Only 2200 out of almost a million or more crossing? Damn not enough to deter them...
Where did you hear we have stopped looking for Al Queda? Just because you don't read about it in every day doesn't mean we have stopped.
and trust me, the majority think what Bear and I are saying...
edited to start new topic
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on May 17, 2003 08:47 AM ]
posted on May 17, 2003 08:24:15 AM new
With the current Mexican economy even worse than the U.S.economy, many migrants will die this summer of heat and thirst.
The Border Patrol stategy which includes herding migrants through an area where they are likely to die of thirst qualifies as a human rights violation.
The U.S. Mexican border has been called the most dangerous border in the world. Migrants who try to cross it are victims of both the Mexican economy and the US border strategy.
posted on May 17, 2003 08:35:54 AM new
Human rights are not dependant on citizenship. Your opinions are not those of a majority and frankly they tend to dehumanize you not those whom you scorn. It's obvious that fear rules your life, in order to feel secure you have the need to attempt to create a reality in which your values are imposed on the lives of others who do not share you narrow veiwpoint.
RvW is the law of the land and will remain so but more interestingly it is completely irrevalent to this thread.
Believe me with the exception of the membership of your local klavern people think you're nuts.
posted on May 17, 2003 09:08:27 AM new
davebraun, nice try, but fear has nothing to do with it, you can try your pshyhco babble all you want and you can make your left wing attitude feel better by trying to deny the truth.
What is it with left wing liberals that anytime someone doesn't agree with your side,it must be fear. LOL that is a laugh... you must be a comedian in real life.
davebraun you are like most anonymous posters, you talk a good show from behind your computer, but don't think you have the spine to say something to someone's face.
I on other hand have said this about illegals for years, even when living in SD, and believe me there are lots of people there who are fed up with illegals crossing over.
The left seems to always turn a blind eye to criminal activity and rights of others who do not share their views.
We have immigration laws in this country and with people like you who seem to think that coming here is right and not a priviledge, you piss on every grave of every legal immigrant that came before.
My disgust for people who support this activity is beyond words and those who attempt to enter illegally deserve whatever fate awaits them.
Hopefully one day President Bush will step up and put a stop to this.
Reducing Future Illegal Mexican Immigration. Reducing illegal immigration should also be made a much higher national priority. The analysis done here indicates that there are at least 3 million and perhaps closer to 4 million illegal aliens from Mexico living in the United States. Illegal immigration from Mexico has added significantly to the size of the poor and uninsured populations in the United States. Because they receive benefits on behalf of their native-born children, illegal immigrants have also added to the welfare caseload. But perhaps most important, in a nation based on the rule of law, it should not be acceptable to have millions of people living in the country without permission.
This report has found that Mexican immigration creates significant challenges for the United States. It has added significantly to the size of the poor and uninsured U.S. populations, as well as substantially added to the welfare caseload in the United States. For example, while Mexican immigrants and their young children comprise 4.2 percent of the nation's total population, they comprise 10.2 percent of all persons in poverty. They also comprise 12.5 percent of those without health insurance. Perhaps most troubling, the findings show that the welfare use, income, and other measures of socio-economic status of legal Mexican immigrants do not converge with natives over time. Legal Mexican immigrants who have lived in the United States for many years do not enjoy a standard of living similar to that of natives. Their low incomes coupled with high use of means-tested programs create very significant fiscal costs for the country as well. Based on research by the National Academy of Sciences, the lifetime net fiscal drain (taxes paid minus services used) on public coffers created by the average adult Mexican immigrant is estimated to be more than $55,000. While employers may want increased access to unskilled Mexican labor, this cheap labor comes with a very high cost.
Final Thoughts. Because the two countries share a 2000-mile border, there can be no doubt that the futures of Mexico and the United States are intimately bound together for all time. While migration is only one of the many issues affecting the two countries, it is perhaps the most intractable because the interests of the two countries do not coincide. Whereas the Mexican government has made clear its desire that more immigrants be allowed to come north, the available data suggest that the costs to the United States clearly outweigh the benefits.
posted on May 17, 2003 10:01:08 AM new
Human rights are entirely dependent on citizenship. There is no privity between aliens and the society which produces and guarantees human rights.
Unless you are advocating the overthrow of foreign governments in order to achieve human rights, then human rights are dependent on citizenship.
But wait, if you believe that then you must have fully supported Bush's policy of invading Iraq, and will support the invaision of Iran, Syria, and North Korea.
posted on May 17, 2003 10:06:38 AM new
What a load of huey.
America was built by millions of ignorant immigrants coming to a place that offered them little of nothing other than opportunity.
That's what America is and it's worked pretty well in many ways. It's not perfect, but it certainly is better than most.
It's not illegal immigration that worries many, it's legal because then they would have THE VOTE, and then they could change THE STATUS QUO.
Immigrants are needed for any society to succeed because for whatever reason we end up with jobs that nobody wants.
If you are going to allow poor mexicans to pick your fruit and veggies and work in your sweatshops so you can keep prices artificially down because you can't pay AMERICANS to do those jobs or if you did you'd have to pay 8 times the amount then you can't complain about these workers and their families wanting to build a life!!
Poor/or working class spend much higher percentages of their incomes on HOUSING/FOOD/UTILITIES and local economy products than the rich or middle class.
Without poor immigrants you end up with a mess.
So stop being demagogues and let the poor little guy have his or her chance.
posted on May 17, 2003 10:08:24 AM new
davebraun you are like most anonymous posters
Wrong: I do not hide behind a pseudonym such as Twelvepole.
"What is it with left wing liberals that anytime someone doesn't agree with your side,it must be fear."
Wrong: Although at one time I carried a membership card issued by the RNC I consider myself a Libertarian.
Basically my place in this world is secure, I don't need to repress others to insure my security. Others do not have to embrace my views for those views to be correct. I don't have to stand by while you and others of your narrow viewpoint spread your hate and attempt to limit my unalienable rights.
Bush is too busy lining the pockets of his cronies, he could care less about the issues which affect this nation beyond partisan politics and retaining power for his cadres.
[ edited by davebraun on May 17, 2003 10:32 AM ]
posted on May 17, 2003 10:15:10 AM new
::Neon, I too have lived in San Diego and to try to compare TJ and Baja with the rest of Mexico is ridiculous. Tourism and the sports books bring LOTS of US dollars there. ::
You've obviously been gone for awhile.
1) Tourism is dead
2) Gambling does not fund the communities
3) Tiuana extends beyond Revolucion and the race track.
Every day people are coming to Tijuana in search of this myth that you too believe in of money and jobs in Tijuana only to find that there are none. They end up in makeshift communities that are cropping up on every vacant hillside of tin and plywood shanty homes with no water and no sanitation and they end up in situations like two months ago where 13 people drowned in mud and water when flooding washed these "neighborhoods" to the bottom of the hills they were built on.
But you are right in one way - comparing Tijuana to central Mexico may just be ridiculous - there are other places that are worse.
posted on May 17, 2003 10:43:57 AM new
So what shall we do?
Just set back and allow the Mexican poverty to be exported into the US ?
If all these illegals were as hard working and as good of workers as some claim, then Mexico should be an economic powerhouse.
But Mexico is not an economic powerhouse.
While many of you find fault with good old Uncle Sam for the plight of illegal immigrants, why don't we place the blame where it should be, on Vinny Fox and the people of Mexico ?
If Mexico is such a hell hole, why aren't all the wealthy Mexicans leaving for el Norte ?
The wealthy Mexicans ignore the plight of their poor, will not invest in their own people, and then set back and export their poverty to the US, all the while making $$millions.
The borders of this nation have never been open to illegal immigrants.
Blaming the US for Mexico ignoring and exporting its problems is baseless.
posted on May 17, 2003 11:07:52 AM new
Reamond - is your entire world a cliche?
::If all these illegals were as hard working and as good of workers as some claim, then Mexico should be an economic powerhouse. ::
Doesn't matter how great a worker you are if you don't have a job Reamond - just ask all the unemployed here in the US.
::While many of you find fault with good old Uncle Sam for the plight of illegal immigrants, why don't we place the blame where it should be, on Vinny Fox and the people of Mexico ? ::
1) When did we blame the US for their pliht?
2) How do justify blaming someone in office for thee years for something that had been decade in the making?
::If Mexico is such a hell hole, why aren't all the wealthy Mexicans leaving for el Norte?::
No one has said that Mexico is a "Hell Hole" - we have simply stated that there are areas that are i extreme plight and that the people there are trying to escpe it. At the same time BTW - alot of the wealthy are living in "el Norte", and they are banding together and trying to do thing to increase living and educational standards back home and to create jobs. I'm mad at myself right now that I cannot remember the names of these groups because I think that you would fin their efforts quite interesting.
::Blaming the US for Mexico ignoring and exporting its problems is baseless. ::
Please show me where that has been done... other han Helens 1 post this thread has been a condemnation of those that hope for and endorse death for illegals. US Government actions or attitudes have not been addressed.
