posted on August 5, 2003 05:13:24 AM newIn your opinion I am UN-AMERICAN for giving my opinion on gay marriage
What is un-American is not that you gave your opinion it is that your opinion (IMO) is that of a bigot. You will spread that same bigotry to your children. The same bigotry that has caused the killing of many a young gay man and even more black men. Love one another? Yes, because that is what the Bible tells us to do. It does not tell us to pick and choose. It does not tell us to be judge, jury and executioner. It is the religious fantatics that twist and turn the words in the Bible to fit your own agenda. There are many interpretations to the Bible and there is not one completely right one or one completely wrong one. You read it as being a hell and damnation book. I read it as being a book teaching love and tolerance of others. Jesus was love not hate. You should allow your children to interpret the Bible in their way, not yours. How do you explain it to your children? Simple: "God made us all different. Isn't that wonderful?"
It is opinions such as these that keep me away from organized religion. I worship God in my way and so far, I've heard no complaints from Him.
I know bigotry. My grandfather was one. What's worse he was a wealthy Republican one. From the time I was old enough to form my own opinions (thanks, mom and dad, for allowing me that) we didn't see eye-to-eye. To the day he died, I don't think we agreed on much of anything. He hated that I have black friends, he hated that my cousin married a black man. He quit talking to my brother because he's gay (his loss, IMO). Even growing up in my mother's household we were upper middle class. Went to an all white highschool in North Olmsted. I however, was one of the lucky ones. I had a mother and a father who taught me to think for myself and to make my own judgements and develop my own opinions. They didn't steer me away from things they themselves didn't approve of.
No, you are not un-American by giving your opinions. You are un-American for not accepting that America is the greatest melting pot on earth and EVERYONE has a right to be who they are without fear of retribution. They also have the same rights as you or I. We cannot pick and choose who has the right to marry and who does not.
JMO
Cheryl
Power to the people. Power to the people, right on. - John Lennon
[ edited by CBlev65252 on Aug 5, 2003 05:13 AM ]
posted on August 5, 2003 05:16:35 AM new
Cheryl, the dislike of deviants knows no color boundries, there are All races and colors that are against homosexuality.
So please don't even try mixing in Race along with this deviant issue. Deviants are sick individuals who need some major psychiatric help...
posted on August 5, 2003 06:18:06 AM new
I wasn't bringing race into the gay issue. I was attempting to let this new poster know who I am and what I believe. You already know all to well. Imagine then being a gay black man. It's a hard, hard road.
Cheryl
Power to the people. Power to the people, right on. - John Lennon
posted on August 5, 2003 08:26:22 AM new
CBlev65252- Once again you have misread what I have said. I never mentioned race in my reply and twice now have said If someone chooses to live a life style to be with someone of the same sex as them, then that is there right here in America. Not that I need to prove it to you, but I have many friends who are of a different race, religion and nationality then of my own. Never the less you have somehow figured it necessary to blame me for the killing of many a young gay man and even more black men. That is ridicules.
It is not teaching bigotry to teach my children the written word. Which by the way it does say in my bible that homosexuality is wrong. Maybe your bible does not, but mine does and Like I said before, I WILL NOT change what my bible teaches me because yours says different. Don't I have that right without being called a bigot. No I don't have any close friends who are gay and I don't only because it has worked out that way. What, I am supposed to go out and look for a gay friend so that I can say I am an understanding person such as yourself. Yes "God made us all different and that is wonderful" but GOD never gave us the right to let two men get married or sleep with eachother. I does not mean they should be beat up or killed, but it does me I do not have to accept it.
I apologize if I sounded hostile towards you, but for what you have been accusing me of it is kind of hard not to be. You are right I have not been on the board very long, but it has not taken me long to see you are not very (as you say you are) tolerant of other peoples opinions and seem quit judgmental yourself.
I am not hear to judge anyone, just give my MO. One day we will all be judged by GOD, myself included.
posted on August 5, 2003 08:40:42 AM new
John - I do not believe that anyone here believes that you should ignore your religious beliefs when deciding your politics, as you have said, religious teachings heavily influence a persons personal beliefs systems and and opinions.
The catch here is that are lawmakers MUST do that. They made a choice to enter into a job where they serve, not themselves or their beliefs, but the will of the people that brought them to office and the constitution of our nation. They must not serve their religion because it is not the religion of all that elected him to serve them. Additionally there is to be a clear seperation of church from our laws because there are so many churchs that exist within our nation, to serve one is to ignore others. The best is to ignore all, serve the daily needs of it's people and allow them the freedom to choose a church or belief that will deal with their spiritual needs.
The question of whether same sex marriages should be recognized should not be a moral or religious question in the eyes of our government, it should be a legal question. If two people of legal age and entwined in a legal relationship wish to enter into the contract of marriage, what is the legal rationale for forbidding it? Maybe you can answer it. I've asked the question many times but no one has ever been able to give and answer that is not trite, or legally irrelelvent.
You are the person who brought up the intentions of our founding fathers and asked if we remembered them. Question is do you? Do you remember that they were fighting also for freedom from religious persecution and that it was those founding fathers that you so trumpeted in your first post that stated that church and state should remain seperate entities.
As for Bush....... I don't like him, I don't trust him, I don't believe a word he says. I believe that he has a set and predetermined agenda and will twist facts in order to serve that agenda and ignore those that are contradictory to it. I believe that he has done damage to this nations reputation on the world stage that may prove to be irrepairable. I do not respect him as a man, I do not respect him as a leader and no title placed upon his head will change that fact. You know what the most beautiful thing of all is? That our forfathers granted me the right to stand up and say that as loudly as I wish.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on August 5, 2003 10:34:00 AM new
John - My reply was to twelvepole, not you. Read the last post above mine and then read my last post (the one before this). It is not I who judge you, it is you who judge people who believe differently than you in their religious views especially pertaining to a gay's right to legally marry. That is what I get from your post. As I said, if I'm wrong I apologize. None of us are here to berate or belittle anyone else even though it sometimes seems that way. We can disagree in one thread while agreeing in another. That's the beauty of this board.
I have often thought that while we are looking for the evil that according to the Bible is supposed to detroy the world, we may be looking in the wrong places. What if that evil is here right where we live? What if that evil is NOT overseas, but right in our own backyard?
I don't have to like the current president. I think he lies through his teeth and I think he came into office with an agenda all his own. I think he could care less what the people of this country want. I think he is a spoiled child in a man's body. But, that's just my opinion. No disrespect intended.
Cheryl
Power to the people. Power to the people, right on. - John Lennon
[ edited by CBlev65252 on Aug 5, 2003 10:37 AM ]
posted on August 5, 2003 10:44:08 AM new
From my understanding, Bush is losing support with the American people. I believe that he is trying to use this issue to gain support.
What I want from the politicians is for them to come out and say that they believe homosexual marriages should be regarded equally as the heterosexual marriages, but it is not fessible at this time. Better yet, say "it is not fessible at this time, so when will it be fessible? We must change the laws now."
posted on August 5, 2003 10:47:26 AM new
Excellent post, fenix!
johncino, you say,
" I just don't think the rest of us should have to compromise our religion, life style or our countries laws to appease them."
While I was researching the issue about the New York high school for GLBT students, I read that some homophobic parents were kicking their children out of the house because of their sexual orientation.
My question is how would you feel if one of your children showed a sexual orientation other than heterosexual. Would you want their rights denied? Would you believe that they are compromising your religion and life style?
posted on August 5, 2003 11:23:32 AM new
I guess it's time to face facts fenix, Cheryl & Helen. There are some people who choose to hate others and aren't afraid to say so by using God as their defense. It seems that those same people love Bush - the wolf in sheep's clothing. Talk about the blind leading the blind....
posted on August 5, 2003 12:23:31 PM newMy question is how would you feel if one of your children showed a sexual orientation other than heterosexual. Would you want their rights denied? Would you believe that they are compromising your religion and life style?
I would maybe in this instance support abortion
Actually I would spare no expense in getting them the psychiatric help they so desperately needed, if they refused, then they would joining the others on the street... my children would know from a very early age that deviance is not acceptable behavior.
But just so you lefties feel better, I have no children nor can I have any...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on Aug 5, 2003 12:30 PM ]
posted on August 5, 2003 05:47:40 PM new
12-pole said...
But just so you lefties feel better, I have no children nor can I have any...
I hate to say it, and I admit it is way over the top but admit it, we all feel the same way. But I am grateful for that fact. At least a little piece of hate ends with you....
posted on August 6, 2003 12:24:46 AM new
CBlev65252- I apologize for the mix up with the post and twelve pole and all that.
To all who disagree with me on gay marriage or I guess in the long run being gay at all, I have to say that I just don't think there is anyway we will be able to agree on this matter. My believes are very strong and where I come from it not bigotry to not want to accept the gay life style. It is just the way it is and it is not going to change, as I am sure you will never change your views or opinions. Even if one day GOD forbid one of my children showed a sexual orientation other than heterosexual I would not change my views. I would not go as far as twelvepole and show my child the door or wish my wife had an abortion, but I also would not spare any expense in getting them the psychiatric help they so desperately needed. I would try everything possible through my church and professional help and if all attempts failed, I would still love my child! That's not say I would accept the lifestyle he or she choose and I most certainly would Condon he or she from marrying there partner. They would have to have that wedding without me. With that said, I would be there in all ways possible ( without compromising my beliefs) for my child always and no matter what.
fenix03- I can see your point to an extent, but what you are asking is just about impossible to do and it always has been. If you have a strong faith it not as easy as just saying this my job and I must forget my beliefs and my religion. After all people are just human.
Yes, I do know that our founding fathers fought for freedom from religious persecution and stated that church and state should remain separate. Maybe I can bend a little and admit that when I said it will be our downfalI with the separation of state and church was a little extreme, but it came out of frustration.
p.s. I wonder if our founding fathers ever thought there would be a time that two men or two women would want to get married. Maybe they would have reconsidered.
As far as our Truthful, Honorable, hard working trying to get this country back on track from the last horrible administration, President Bush is concerned. I can not disagree with you more. May I ask if you are a lefty clinton lover, because that would explain a lot about your unreasonable views about President Bush or are you just jumping on the very small band wagon because you do not know any better.
It's okay to disagree! If we all agreed there would be no need for this board. Take twelvepole and I. Geeze, we hardly ever agree on anything but, I still read his posts (although some have caused my eyes to burn) and comprehend most of what he has to say (although I've lost some brain cells in the process). Just some light-hearted humor, twelve.
You're opinions, although not agreed with by me, are respected for what they are - your opinions. Sometimes we may sound harsh, but then sometimes that is the only way to get a point across when someone appears to not be comprehending what we've said.
Keep on posting!
Cheryl
Power to the people. Power to the people, right on. - John Lennon
Personally, I don't see any reason to respect or to behave obsequiously toward you and your right wing agenda simply because you are a new poster.
The right wing policy of the Bush administration endangers the stability of our country and the entire world so we can't take it lightly.
posted on August 6, 2003 06:09:48 AM newI wonder if our founding fathers ever thought there would be a time that two men or two women would want to get married. Maybe they would have reconsidered.
Do you think that homosexuality was non-existant then? Do you think they didn't wish they could celebrate their relationships openly? I wouldn't rule out one of the founding fathers being a closet homosexual. You'd be surprised at what you don't know. It's been around for centuries, but has only been out of the closet for a short time. Take cross-dressing for example. You'd probably fall off your chair if you knew just how many men actually do this and how many of them hold high-level positions or positions of power. Never say never.
Cheryl
Power to the people. Power to the people, right on. - John Lennon
posted on August 6, 2003 08:41:00 AM new
Helenjw-
I would not call it my right wing agenda, but rather the agenda of common sense and normalcy. I never asked you to agree with me because I am new poster either. I only asked to leave out the foul language. Sorry to have crimped your style, but don't see the need for it!
Scavenger40-
Ha Ha, Very funny!
CBlev65252-
I do agree that it is okay to disagree and I certainly understand what you mean by sometimes having to be harsh to get a point across when someone appears to not be comprehending what I have said. Admittedly, You all do give me something's to think about and I will keep on posting!
p.s. The founding father reconsidering comment was meant to be a joke. I just can't seem to figure out how you guys put those little faces next to you comments. Please enlighten me. Thanks!
posted on August 6, 2003 09:04:36 AM newJohn, you state,
"I would not call it my right wing agenda, but rather the agenda of common sense and normalcy. I never asked you to agree with me because I am new poster either. I only asked to leave out the foul language. Sorry to have crimped your style, but don't see the need for it!"
I don't use foul language, John. My remark to you, that it cramped my style was a joke. Your cautionary remark, with the unstated assumption on your part that you would encounter foul language here was an insult.
Nobody can call what is going on in our world today a policy of "common sense and normalcy". Exactly where do you see that policy in operation???
posted on August 6, 2003 10:02:43 AM new
John - I am definately a democrat but I do not make my observations along party lines (there a rebulicans that I do agree with and respect on a number of issues). Did I like Clinton? Yes. Poverty levels dropped, homeless levels dropped, jobless levels dropped, New business start-ups increased and well as new housing starts. This country was doing quite well on both the local and world stages and the only thing the republicans could do to bring him down was expose a human failing because the public was not finding political ones.
Bush is an ineffective president. HIs approval ratings prior to 9/11 were among the lowest ever for a sitting president. At this point in time he is heading right back to them. He has involved our nation in a multi billion dollar war during one of it's worst economic periods citing lies and twisted truths as the reason in order to rally his approval ratings and further personal agendas. Saddam was of no iminent threat to us and the Al Quieda link is laughable when you consider that Bin Laden despises Saddam as a traitor to the muslim people. Bushs approval rating were dropping as a result of his ineffectual attempts to carry out his promise to find Bin Laden and his laughable economic and foreign policies were finally being seen in their true light.
You state that you disagree with my statements. I would actually first like to figure out which you disagree with...
Do you disagree that the reputation and impression of our country has bee damaged overseas?
Do you disagree that he twisted facts to try to justify this war to our nation and our congress?
Do you feel that Bush has a capable and effective economic plan?
Do you feel that Bush has a competent and realistic foreign policy?
Do you feel that Bush is on the same page as the american public regarding the priorities of our nation and our government at this time?
Rather than simply say he's good or he's bad I'm curious to know where you stand on the issues that should be indicators as to whether or not someone is an effective president. Then we can have an effective conversation.
As for how to make smilies...
- wink - ; ) - just remove the space between the semi colon and the bracket. For a regular smile, , use a colon rather than a semi colon and you are good to go.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on August 6, 2003 09:02:38 PM new
Colin - since basic rules of nature would imply sex for procreation then by your definition, sex with any barren or infertile person would be an abomination. Shall we ban those too? Is marriages only purpose to add legitamacy to the sexual relationship? If so, perhaps all marriages involving impotent individuals should be disolved? Are these aspects ridicuouls? Yes of course. But then so is the fact that you are using religious rationale to justify a legal decision when under the confines of our constitution the two are to remain seperate.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Aug 6, 2003 09:10 PM ]
posted on August 6, 2003 09:14:00 PM new
I love how people are now saying marriage is not a religious ceremony... just so deviants have a shot at it... well I believe that the original wording had something like "...in HOLY matrimony"
No matter how much you want it... it is not a seperate issue nor should it be... deviants should not be allowed to marry.
posted on August 6, 2003 11:13:00 PM new
Morden Marriage in a contract Twelve. There would be no use for DIVORCE COURT if it were a purely religious ceremony. By your definition athiests cannot marry
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on August 7, 2003 01:58:14 AM new
Helenjw-
From my original post I never intended the foul language towards you alone. I was going through and reading a lot of the posts and noticed that in some there was a lot of foul language and insults going back and forth. I was just trying to avoid that in general, so I put the request in for anyone who might join who does normally use foul language. I did not intend to insult you or anyone else who would not normally use foul language.
As far as what I said about it being my policy, it was just that MY POLICY. I never republican parties policy in general. I was said in defense to you saying that I had a right wing agenda. I was just simply replying "I would not call it my right wing agenda, but rather the agenda of common sense and normalcy" thats how I see myself. Not the whole party. Whether you believe it or not, I do feel that there are those in the Republican party who are very far right as I do with some democrats being way to left. I don't think anyone can EVER say whats going in the world at any given time is completely normal for all because all have there own opinions about what is normal or not.
Fenix03-
First let me thank you for the instructions on the faces.
Now back to business!
Clinton did get a raw deal with the whole intern affair thing. I always felt that it was his and hillary's problem to work. Not the business of the rest of the world.
I also feel that for the most part he was reaping the benefit's of the administration before him. He did help in keeping it up for a while, but remember it was not long before he went out of office that it all starting coming back down again. It is just convenient for anti Bush people to use it against him. If bill could have gone another term, it would have been (rightfully so) his problem right now because he was the start of the cause of our economy right now. Bush came in when it was falling apart and did not have much of a chance to repair it before 9/11 happened. Any president would be facing the same economy after something like that. I think Bush does have an effective plan for our economy right, but it can take years for it to really start to show. Thank fully he will be president next term and be able to enjoy the economy when it does come back. It think it makes sense to have tax cuts and even if it is geared more towards big company or the rich. After all they are the ones who supply the people who are looking for work with jobs. Who in turn will spend money. We all get something out of it. Heck I just got an $800.00 check form the president and guess what I did my part and spent it.
MY answers to your other questions:
#1 Do you disagree that the reputation and impression of our country has bee damaged overseas? Yes I do feel that it has been unavoidably damaged. We have to do what we need to do to protect AMERICA, not worry about what places like FRANCE, GERMANY and so on think. IMO the all had alterial motives for not supporting us. I got this from news max and it says it all for me:
The reality is that France has been in bed with the genocidal Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein for decades.
France has massive investments in Iraq (and has made a fortune out of the U.N. oil-for-food program). Everyone knows that it is worried that a successor regime might not honor contracts made by Saddam.
For decades France has been taking blood money from one of the worst dictators on earth, and now theyre guardians of morality? I dont think so.
So who cares if france or place's like them do like us. We don't need them. Since when has America had to answer to any other other country when it comes to protecting itself?
#2 Do you disagree that he twisted facts to try to justify this war to our nation and our congress? NO! Absolutely not. Most people argue the weapon's of mas destructing thing and that they have not been found. YET! President Bush never said solely that we had to go there for that reason. It is just that they have not been found YET that gives some an accuse to say he lied. Does not the stories of mass graves, torture and the killing of his own people bother you? That for me was reason enough.
#3 Do you feel that Bush has a capable and effective economic plan? Already answered that one above.
#4 Do you feel that Bush has a competent and realistic foreign policy? Yes I do! I think he is being stern with other countries who he need to be with. I know some feel this dangerous for us, but I feel he is right. Take the standoff with Beijing for example. He refused to sit down and talk to them one on one because he felt it was not just our problem that they are going to develop nuclear weapons. He felt South Korea, Japan,Russia and China should be involved and he would not budge. Well, Beijing finally caved and agreed to the six ways talks. We cannot let these evil leaders tell us how it going to happen.
#5 Do you feel that Bush is on the same page as the American public regarding the priorities of our nation and our government at this time? For the most part, YES! There are some poles that say no, but some that say yes. I personally feel the whole taking poles thing is only as good as who you pole. You can make that work in your favor. I can only tell you that the people I live and work with everyday agree with what he is doing. I have 150 fellow employee's on my shift who I work with 5 days a week and I can count with just two hands how many people I have spoken to at work who don't like the president or what he is doing and I to speak to each and everyone of them at some time during the work week. that is all I can really go by to give you an answer to this question, but it seems pretty evident form where I am how the people feel!
CBlev65252-
Thanks for the huge list to work with. I will try one my next time out.
posted on August 7, 2003 03:50:00 AM new
fenix03,
I suggest you read my post again. I quoted the bible for Cheryl. She wanted to know where in the bible it said homosexuality was frowned upon.
I really don't care what the gays do. I've even watched the new Queer eye show. Can we now call them Queers again??
I think they're just other human beings. They should have the same right as any other human being.
Marriage is not one of them.
If we allow this to happen we are opening the door to a host of other problems both social and economic.
This would allow anyone anywhere to say they were gay and get married for the health benefits of the working person or for any other benefits. Open the door for illegal to become American citizens and on and on.
posted on August 7, 2003 05:34:39 AM new
If it is "just" a contract, let he deviants enter into a partnership contract... just like a business, you can have lots things placed in those.
posted on August 7, 2003 09:42:08 AM new
"I personally feel the whole taking poles thing is only as good as who you pole"
--that applies to heterosexuals as well as homosexuals--
"He did help in keeping it up for a while"
--same comment as above--
"France has been in bed with the genocidal Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein for decades."
--you just can't stop talking about sex--
"I applaud President Bush for his stern"
--there you go again--
"there is no bottom for them at this point."
--c'mon, enough already--
"30 jets in the sand"
--so, you've been to Fire Island.
"America was founded under GOD"
--GOD likes to be on top--
"What is it that I should tell my children when they start asking questions about them?"
--Gay Bashing For Dummies is available at BackDoorBooks.com--
"that sadom is a ruthless murderer"
--as is his brother, gomer.
"If we wanted to steal there oil we could have done that will a long time ago."
--that is the Bush energy conservation policy - "don't steal it until you need it"--
"As far as the war and the so called lies claimed by the democrats"
--the entire world is populated by democrats?.....there goes the neighborhood.
"a chance to repair it before 9/11 happened."
--9/11 happens once a year--
"Thank fully he will be president next term"
--who is fully?--
"thats how I see myself"
--you can see yourself? Can you see me? I can't see you. "won't you be my neighbor"--
"I do agree that it is okay to disagree"
--Do we agree that we are in agreement that it is agreeable to agree to disagree with a disagreeable agreement providing that disagreeable agreement disagrees with an agreeable agreement that does not disagree with this agreeable agreement unless the agreed disagree with the agreement?--
"Since when has America had to answer to any other other country when it comes to protecting itself?"
--since the white man came here - stole our women - raped our buffalo. Ugh!--
"it has been unavoidably damaged"
--Aha! You work for the Post Office--
"oil-for-food program"
--will that work with Windows98?--
"For decades France has been taking blood money from one of the worst dictators on earth"
--vache sainte, Dick Cheney is French?!--
"Heck I just got an $800.00 check form the president"
--he sent me duct tape--
"Take the standoff with Beijing for example. He refused to sit down and talk to them one on one"
-- they all look the same to me, sitting or standing.--
"alterial motives"
--is that the new hydrogen fueled auto? Where do I get one?--
"but was never completely committed "
--don't fret, you will be someday.--
"where I come from it not bigotry to not want to accept the gay life style"
--from what planet do you come, Texas?--
"To many people like yourself seem to forget he is the leader of our country and should be treated with some RESPECT. "
--Right On! Let's find some other lying scumbag motherxxxxer to disrespect.
Imagine then being a gay black man. It's a hard, hard road.
