Twelvepole
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posted on August 15, 2003 03:09:43 PM new
The looters there in Ottawa had an awesome night too 
AIN'T LIFE GRAND... 
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kraftdinner
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posted on August 15, 2003 03:18:36 PM new
That's pretty sad when people take advantage of these kinds of situations. I hope they find the looters and put them in jail.
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mlecher
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posted on August 15, 2003 03:29:10 PM new
Naaah, the utilities gave millions in Republican campaign contributions. They will never see a day of jail.....
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Linda_K
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posted on August 15, 2003 05:54:24 PM new
From the 'open mouth, insert foot' column today....
Hillary Clinton took to the airwaves to blame President Bush and his administration's energy policies for pushing deregulation and coddling corrupt power companies like Enron.
"I happen to think that making sure we have a reliable, affordable system of energy is a national priority - and I don't think that this administration sees it that way," Clinton told CNN's "Larry King Live."
"They have continued to try to push deregulation and privatization, and to try to undo a lot of the systems in changes that many of us thought were important and necessary that we tried to work on during the Clinton administration under [former Energy] Secretary [Bill] Richardson's leadership."
"So, no," she insisted, "I don't think the federal administration under this president is really focused on making sure we don't have these problems in the future."
Before Clinton phoned in her comments to the King show, however, Richardson, now governor of New Mexico, noted that her husband had done little to address the problem during his eight years in office.
"In the Clinton administration, everybody yawned about this, [saying] oh, we don't need to do this. Oh, we don't have a crisis," he told King.
ROFLMHO
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CBlev65252
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posted on August 15, 2003 06:49:49 PM new
It was a royal pia at rush hour even in Cleveland. I could only imagine New York and be thankful I don't live there. However, at night it was truly awsome. The neighbors all pulled together. We did have a dog get hit by a speeding car. Fortunately, the dog is okay. Once the moon came out the sight was just wonderful. It lit the night up. My boyfriend and I spent almost the entire night on the front porch swing enjoying the night air, the quiet and the stars. We're avid campers so we had all the necessary gear. It was like camping with indoor plumbing! Now my boyfriend thinks they should do this once a month. I think he's a bit nuts.
Cheryl
Power to the people. Power to the people, right on. - John Lennon
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Linda_K
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posted on August 15, 2003 08:35:41 PM new
Can you say CALIFORNIA and ENERGY MANIPULATION? No, because that's not true. The energy crisis in CA was the direct result of all the restrictions you on the left had implimented.
mlecher - Do you now, or have you ever, lived in CA? The energy crisis was caused by all the environmentalists that wouldn't allow any more power plants to be build, And those EPA standards were requiring higher and higher standards for air quality. Most of the power plants were old, and in need of repair and couldn't meet those high standards. Some were shut down. Others were unable to produce any energy while they were being repaired.
AFTER the crisis hit, many power plants were then allowed to be built. But it was too late then. The power had been purchased at much higher rates.
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Linda_K
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posted on August 15, 2003 08:44:39 PM new
I wondered how you were making out yesterday. Cheryl.
Other thanor maybe as a result of.... the power outage....sounds the the evening was a success. [wink,wink] And I agree with him.
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CBlev65252
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posted on August 15, 2003 08:45:39 PM new
Linda
I pray you never have to live smack in the middle of two nuclear power plants. It's not a comfortable feeling! I have a feeling that Perry may have had something to do with the crisis. That plant is a constant problem and is always going offline. They are both (Davis Besse and Perry) designated as potential terrorist targets. I'm doomed if that ever happens!
I didn't buy the excuse that everyone went home and turned their air on at the same time crap fed by the media. It wasn't that hot and it wasn't even the height of when people get home from work. There are so many conflicting stories it's hard to tell what is true. It seems that the latest is that it could have started here in Ohio. And, where was our great governor during all of this? In Canada. He didn't feel it a crisis enough to come back to Ohio. Maybe he should just stay up there in Canada.
You will appreciate this. When our power was restored, I did email my bidders because the rolling blackouts continued and I didn't know if I would be able to contact them. One bidder emailed me this one line: Gray Davis has been spotted in Cleveland".
Oh, him is Ken. Sorry dear, your name is out. Hee, hee. 
Cheryl
Power to the people. Power to the people, right on. - John Lennon
[ edited by CBlev65252 on Aug 15, 2003 08:46 PM ]
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fenix03
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posted on August 15, 2003 11:30:25 PM new
::The energy crisis was caused by all the environmentalists that wouldn't allow any more power plants to be build, And those EPA standards were requiring higher and higher standards for air quality.::
LInda - I believe that you are incorrect here. The energy crisis was actually manufacturered by the energy companies themselves. There is no logical explination for it. Plants were taken offline completely or running at well below capacity for no justifiable reason in order to create a mock shortage and to spike the market. That was one of the reasons that Arnold "We must solve Californias Energy crisis" stance was seen by many as so laughable. He apparently was unaware of something that has been an ongoing story for over a year in this state.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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REAMOND
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posted on August 16, 2003 08:12:38 AM new
It has a lot to do with environmentalists and NIMBYs. While there is presently adequate generation capacity, there is inadequate transmission facilities for more loops and redundancies.
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davebraun
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posted on August 16, 2003 08:27:46 AM new
Can you say CALIFORNIA and ENERGY MANIPULATION? No, because that's not true. The energy crisis in CA was the direct result of all the restrictions you on the left had implemented.
In his final days in office republican Governor Pete Wilton (CA) pushed for and was able to deregulate the California Electric Industry. Pete Wilson is now the campaign manager of Arnold Swartzenegger in his race for Governor. Swartzenegger has had meetings with Ken Lay and other White House operatives in recent days.
This is a thinly veiled attempt to topple the government of California and replace it with an administration in step with the Bush White House in the hope of capturing California electoral votes ultimately.
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Helenjw
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posted on August 16, 2003 10:41:29 AM new
California and Energy Manipulation?
2001- How Californians got burned
We discussed the manipulation of power in California over two years ago, in this thread.
Helen
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Helenjw
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posted on August 16, 2003 11:20:56 AM new
"This whole event was essentially a 9-second event, maybe 10," said Michehl R. Gent, president and chief executive of the North American Electric Reliability Council, describing how the problem started. His organization was founded after the 1965 blackout to establish rules and procedures to prevent repetitions.
"If we've designed the system for this not to happen, how did it happen?" Mr. Gent said. "I can't answer that question." He added, "I am embarrassed."
New York Times quote of the day.
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fenix03
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posted on August 16, 2003 12:00:54 PM new
Got to give the man credit. He's honest. At least he;s not passing th buck and back peddling.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Helenjw
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posted on August 16, 2003 12:15:00 PM new
Yes!
Those are words that will never be spoken by George even though they would be most appropriate.
Helen
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fenix03
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posted on August 16, 2003 12:20:04 PM new
::Can you say CALIFORNIA and ENERGY MANIPULATION? No, because that's not true.::
What world do you live in? I assume it is one without newspapers because that story has een running for two years. Copmpanies have been fined, officials have resigned under suspicion of involvement, and further investigations are still underway.
The biggest problem in this country is this liberal vs conservative #*!@. We are not going to be able to start solving problems until we look at them in the cold light of day as opposed to tinting them with the viewpoint they are associated with.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Helenjw
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posted on August 16, 2003 12:25:20 PM new
BTW, Dave was quoting LindaK on that.
Helen
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Linda_K
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posted on August 16, 2003 12:30:05 PM new
fenix - There is no logical explination for it. Plants were taken offline completely or running at well below capacity for no justifiable reason in order to create a mock shortage and to spike the market.
Sure there is. Lots of different causes...that the people of CA must take responsibility for themselves....or their elected officials.
First off, CA in 1999 was using twice the energy it was producing. So it had to buy energy from outside. BAD move for any state the size of CA. Left parts of it's energy sources in the hands of other states [how much extra they had availabe] and nature....[if there were enough rain to power the plants, etc].
And I guess I'd ask why should CA, who at the time had a booming economy expect ANYONE [federal gov] to bail them out of the crisis their elected officials got them into?
Matter of fact Davis at one time pretty much told the Feds to back out of CA's issues. But then the Feds should rush in to bail them out of problem they got themselves into? hmmmm. Each state should be able to provide for it's own citizens....not expect the Fed gov. to bail them out at the rest of the 49 states tax dollars.
CA had not built any major power plants in approx. 10 year and yet it's needs were growing both because of it's growing population and the booming tech trades.
Other states were able to get legislation passed within a short period of time when they wished to build new power plants. CA's process took years sometimes. There were all sorts of reasons for this, labor unions demands that only card holding members could work on the plants thereby raising costs and the time it took to argue these issues out.
The environmental groups lawyers were always threatening to file lawsuits about some so-called needed study on how the facilities would affect water supplies, air quality and the landscape. Like when the Kern River water-cooled turbine plants were being suggested, the wildlife groups wanted studies done on how this would affect the migratory birds and sensiive fish species. Holds up the process for months, years.
Most of CA's power plants were 30 years old and were heavyly poluting. CA had very strict clean air quality laws on the books. Some regulated by the Feds but others where CA had even higher standards.
These plants had to be shut down for maintainance. Then even when they were opened, they were still poluting above the 'allowed standards' and were fined heavyly. They'd be stupid to keep them up and running only to pay these heafty fines, imo. Business is business...they're there to make a profit.
Then the environmental groups fought nuclear power plants from being built. The nuclear power plants supplied almost 20% of CA energy. There were four, two were shut down [1999]. I don't know their status right now.
Even during the emergency crisis the legislators wouldn't vote to allow diesl back-up generators to be temp. used as it produced too much polution.
Then there are the Not-In-My-Neighborhood-Types, reamond mentions. I know even in my area of San Jose the city council rejected a proposed power plant. City said it was too close to residential neighborhoods.
Then there was the CEC overruling a local jurisdiction in No CA, near the Geyers geothermal power plant....becuse of air quality - they refused powerline access.
The list goes on and on.
But in the end results in no new power sources being allowed. That created the crisis.
Sure there were good arguments and sure we have to consider the trade off in which energy sourse we decided to use. BUT we have to use something. Can't have all the groups keeping CA from continuing to build more plants to meet their growning energy needs. UNLESS...they want to keep things as they are, and pay the BIG BUCKS for outside energy.
okay...now my post is most likely the size bigcitycollectibles copy and pastes. sorry.
Oh...AND Bush did work to help CA with it's problem. At the time, he conveined an energy task force to find solutions to the crisis. Check out [online] what he and Fox did in Baja so that power could be sent to those So. CA residents. The enviro. are still screaming about the polution issues there in Mexico.
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Linda_K
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posted on August 16, 2003 12:35:37 PM new
Cheryl - Gray Davis has been spotted in Cleveland. Thanks I did appreciate that.
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Linda_K
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posted on August 16, 2003 12:42:58 PM new
This is a thinly veiled attempt to topple the government of California.
THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CAlIFORNIA!!
LOL Looks very much like 1978 to me....Prop 13.. when the CA property owners had enough and voted to change things. I'm sure Bush was responsible for that too. lol
It's truly a circus now....and will be for the next two months I'd bet. Although I did read some liberal judge is working to hold off the recall.
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fenix03
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posted on August 16, 2003 01:59:02 PM new
::Sure there is. Lots of different causes...that the people of CA must take responsibility for themselves....or their elected officials::
So, If I leave a brand new sealed bag of cookies on the counter and three kids come in and eat all the cookies, leave a mess of crumbs all over the counter and the bag on the floor am I to blame for the mess for leaving the bag on my counter?
When do the utilities companie have to take responsibility Linda? No voter or elected official sat down, called their neighbor and figured out how to screw their community. That was the utility companies. The utuility companies shut down facilities for no reason during peak periods in order to create false shortages. Blaming voters for that is like blanming the rape victim for wearing a short skirt.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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fenix03
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posted on August 16, 2003 02:01:15 PM new
Linda - you are missing the point. It does not matter if there were no new plants. There was no reason for there to have been a shortage. THE UTILITIES CREATED THE SHORTAGE.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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mlecher
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posted on August 16, 2003 03:15:54 PM new
Linda, Linda, Linda...I hope you are only being naive AND NOT STUPID!!! If it wasn't true as you so IGNORANTLY state, why were companies fined, people arrested, and documents released stating EXACTLY what I said?
WHEN YOU LIE, DENY, DENY, DENY!
Are you just being a good little sheeple?
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dacreson
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posted on August 16, 2003 05:57:26 PM new
Good grief...
I have never looked here before.
You all are either pretender sellers or know how to load 30 lots from scratch in less than 6 hours. If is latter how do you do it?
As to thread was just a screw up. Likely a employee didn't know how to GENTLY phase in local plant.
All this mis-information about phasing is silly. Technician uses a phase rotation meter which measures on line phase with your phase. Done right no big deal (Done it for years) Done wrong OOOPPPPSSS!
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davebraun
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posted on August 16, 2003 06:34:22 PM new
Whatever your opinion of the the state government of California is is of no concern to me as fortunately you are not a resident of this state. Nor is GW who's only concern is to destabilize the political situation in this state in order to insure a reelection in '04.
Putting his cohorts in the drivers seat regarding power and utilities is like turning the hen house over to the fox. This administration has demonstrated clearly that the focus of it's energy policy is to maximize profits without regard to the ecology or human life for that matter.
Having witnessed within my life:
The Kennedy Assasination/Warren Commission
The Bay of Pigs
The Bay of Tonkin
The Shah of Iran
Heroin entering the US in the body bags of dead US Servicemen from Vietnam
Allende
Nixon/Watergate
Iran Contra (Cocaine to finance Arms to Iran)
Enron
Global Crossing
Savings and loan scandal ala Neal
and the cover ups and attempted cover ups of the above
Yes I am somewhat skeptical of the latest wave of scum to rule our nation.
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Twelvepole
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posted on August 16, 2003 08:56:33 PM new
Power lines in Ohio... outside of Cleveland are most likely the cause... yep lets all vote for a person who doesn't even take care of his own backyard...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
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Helenjw
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posted on August 17, 2003 06:03:13 AM new
Bush to Back Delay Of Power Grid Plan
The Bush administration intends to side with a Senate Republican attempt to freeze a disputed regulatory proposal meant to strengthen the nation's aging power transmission system, which was blamed in last week's massive blackout, a senior administration official said yesterday.
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Twelvepole
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posted on August 17, 2003 06:20:36 AM new
They say the creation of larger, more closely interconnected transmission grids would create a greater risk of cascading power failures.
The southeastern and northwestern utilities -- and their political representatives -- say the blackout shows the dangers of tying larger and larger clusters of states together in tightly unified grids.
Seems like a good reasons to place it on hold, thanks Helen, article has more substance than just the first paragraph.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
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Helenjw
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posted on August 17, 2003 06:55:15 AM new
Bottom line....The Utilities don't want to change their monopoly status and congress and Bush are listening to their powerful lobby.
Helen
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Twelvepole
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posted on August 17, 2003 07:04:20 AM new
Bottom Line it is not proven that it will not cause more problems than we already have.
No justification for spending the money.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
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