posted on August 22, 2003 02:17:20 PM new
Order not to arrest illegals overturned
By Jerry Seper THE WASHINGTON TIMES
An order by the chief Border Patrol agent in San Diego for his agents not to arrest illegal immigrants on city streets or question them except along the border has been overturned by Robert C. Bonner, commissioner of the new Bureau of Customs and Border Protection. Chief William T. Veal was told Friday to recall the Aug. 8 memo, which he issued after protests from the Mexican Consulate over the Aug. 2 arrests in San Diego of illegal aliens seeking to obtain Mexican identification cards. The initial order directed Chief Veal's 1,600 agents to make arrests only along the U.S.-Mexico border or at highway checkpoints, according to Bureau of Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officials. The order, the officials said, was overturned after a closed-door meeting at CBP headquarters attended by Mr. Bonner and Border Patrol Chief Gus de la Vina, whose agency has been moved to the new bureau from the Immigration and Naturalization Service. CBP officials said Mr. Bonner, who has given the Border Patrol a front-line role in the nation's war against terrorists, weapons of mass destruction, illegal aliens and illicit narcotics, ruled that the order was "overly broad and restrictive" and should be rescinded. Mr. Bonner also directed the Border Patrol to review its policies nationwide to determine whether agents are enforcing immigration laws in areas outside the immediate border. "Under the leadership of Commissioner Bonner, Border Patrol agents now, more than ever, will be able to do their job more effectively in preventing the entry of terrorists, their weapons, and weapons of mass destruction from entering the United States between the ports of entry," Border Patrol spokesman Mario Villarreal said. "The Border Patrol is committed to protecting our borders while reassuring the general public we are dedicated to enforcing the immigration laws of the United States," he said. Border Patrol agents in San Diego had questioned whether it was a lawful command and whether they should abide by it — particularly in view of the fact that many Border Patrol supervisors were instructing the line agents to disregard the policy. "We were very happy to hear that the order had been rescinded," said agent Shawn Moran, spokesman for National Border Patrol Council Local 1613 in San Diego. "We hope it's a harbinger of things to come, that the Border Patrol — under Customs and Border Protection — is now going to focus on law enforcement," he said. Agent Joseph N. Dassaro, president of the National Border Patrol Council Local 1613 had issued a statement last week saying that while agents were "disgusted" by the order, the agency maintained the right to determine the Border Patrol's mission. He advised the agents at the time to "fully comply with the policy, regardless of personal or professional opinion." "We are all disgusted at the recent turn of events concerning the Mexican Consulate, subsequent related events, and the issuance of this recent policy memorandum," the Dassaro statement said. "The situation in totality represents the systemic abrogation of our responsibilities to foreign governments and interests. "As federal officers, we should all be disgusted; however, we should not be surprised," he said. Chief Veal, whose San Diego sector includes more than 7,000 square miles along 66 miles of international boundary with Mexico, said in his memo that the future of Border Patrol operations was dependent on the elimination of the perception that agents were conducting neighborhood sweeps. The memo prohibited agents from initiating arrests in cities, residential areas, near workplaces and locations where day laborers gathered, and from making arrests while driving to their assignments. It also described the agents' main priority as the "maximum containment" of illegal immigration at the border and preventing terrorists from entering the country. It said the enforcement of immigration laws away from the border was now the responsibility of the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Chief Veal's memo followed the Aug. 2 arrest by Border Patrol agents of five members of a Mexican family outside the Mexican Consulate near downtown San Diego, all of whom were returned to Mexico. The five were en route to the consulate to apply for matricula consular cards, an identification card issued by the Mexican government to its citizens living in this country. Deputy Consul General Javier Diaz met with Chief Veal to protest the arrests, while Mexican Consul General Rodulfo Figueroa issued a statement saying he was astonished by the arrests because of their proximity to his office. There has been widespread concern about the use of matricula cards, which the FBI has described as an unreliable form of identification. FBI officials recently told a Senate committee the cards posed a criminal and terrorist threat, and were easy to obtain through fraud and a lack of adequate security measures by the Mexican government. Some 1.2 million digitally coded matricula cards, which cost $29, have been issued by Mexican consulates in the United States and are accepted by hundreds of localities, local agencies and banks across the nation. Guatemala is planning to issue similar cards to its nationals in the United States, while Brazil, Poland, Nicaragua and Haiti have shown interest in such cards. The Mexican government lobbied the U.S. banking industry to accept the cards, hoping to cash in on some of the $11 billion believed by federal authorities to be sent home each year by Mexican nationals in this country unable to open bank accounts because of a lack of proper identification. However, no major bank in Mexico lists the matricula card among the official documents they accept to open an account. Federal authorities believe the cards are useful only for illegal aliens, since legal immigrants have usable, U.S. government-issued documents.
posted on August 22, 2003 03:08:22 PM new
Although the arrest outside the consulate brought the issue back to the forefront there has been a great deal of controversy in San Diego since 9/11 because of the way the Border Patrol was handling their duties. Border agents will board Trolleys or pull up to public transportation hubs and ask for the IDs of every latino individual in sight. I think a great deal of the motivation behind the dictate that went down was to avoid legal entanglements over the way duties were being performed,
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
[ edited by Fenix03 on Aug 22, 2003 03:22 PM ]
posted on August 22, 2003 05:53:01 PM new
::Fenix, if the neo-con had their druthers, they would have Mexico declared part of the axis of evil, attack it and take their oil and destroy the infrastructure. Then Haliburton would be "appointed" to do the rebuilding.::
They did not declare them part of the Axis of evil but last time there were talks between the US and Mexico over immigration issues the US informed Mexico that US cooperation would depend upon opening up Pemex (Mexicos state owned oil company) for partial outside ownership. Mexico declined. Talks ended.
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 22, 2003 06:23:25 PM new
So in other words you do in fact believe that the only culture that americans shold be exposed to is their own. Tht really saddens me. I wasn't aware that there could be a quota of good artists that people should be exposed to. I can't imagine a world in which we are denied art because of the origin of its maker. What a narrow world this would become.
BTW - does this also mean that none of our artisans, filmakers, writers or otherwise should be allowed to export their creations?
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
[ edited by Fenix03 on Aug 22, 2003 06:24 PM ]
posted on August 22, 2003 06:31:36 PM new
So you are discounting all of the foreign nationals that came here legally and became citizens; that their work is something less?
Not all artisans are of "American" origin and you did not see me write any such thing.
Their hard work should not be cheapend by imports.
I am all for exports from this country, it is the importing countries problem if they want to impose tarifs.
posted on August 22, 2003 06:49:49 PM new
Twelve - you do not have CLUE what you are talking about. What do you know of Alebrijes and Caleveras to decide that the true artisans of them have imigrated here and that an import is a knock off or cheapens their art? Who are you two decide that which is the most talented at the carvings, the formations or the painting? You are putting a quota on art deciding that only that which is created on american soil is of quality. Especially when you consider that with many of the products, even if they are created here in the US, the materials required to make them authentic must be imported.
On this topic, I promise, you are argueing from a position of ignorance. If you are interested I can give you a lesson on these forms but I don't really think that you are.
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 22, 2003 08:23:44 PM new
Not interested in the least... not American made, not interested.
I have never said that this things can't be imported... you should have to PAY to have those imports... more than any American made pieces... you are the one missing the point.
It is not "art" what you are talking about, it is BUSINESS... people will travel there for their "art", you shipping that crap here is Commercial... and should be TAXED HEAVILY.
posted on August 22, 2003 08:53:53 PM new
Twelve - you are not getting it. Not everything has an american made equivalent. Especially art.
As for your close minded ignorant labeling of imported pieces as crap... Do Anse, Adams Photos, Georgia O'Keefe Paintings, Warhol pieces are become crap when they leave our shores?
How can you be so arrogant as to label something you have neer seen as crap? Expand your horizons some twelve - there is a whole world out there yet to be discovered.
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 22, 2003 09:43:09 PM newHow can you be so arrogant as to label something you have neer seen as crap?
fenix, can't you see you're being BAITED, and big time? TP not only wouldn't know a decent Talavera if he stepped on one, he doesn't care to know about them. He may know enough about the popularity of Mexican decorative arts to know that your business will be a success, and that most SURELY bugs the bejeezus out of him. He is so thoroughly xenophobic that he must refer out of hand to any import as "crap". You're wasting your time. Unless of course you just enjoy it...in which case...have fun
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What luck for the leaders that men do not think. - Adolph Hitler
posted on August 22, 2003 10:08:36 PM new
Prof - It's been a slow day. Not a lot of sales so I've been playing on the boards and with a new web design, watching DVDs, you know the score. I needed entertainment, to kill a little time and maybe explore my masocistic tendancies a little
I was also kind of hoping that I would spark his curiosity to find out what he was arguing against.
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
[ edited by Fenix03 on Aug 22, 2003 10:09 PM ]
posted on August 23, 2003 12:26:30 AM new
I was just reading one of the thread over at EO a looking at some of the pics fropm the fires in BC Canada and I thought back to the issue brought up earlier in this thread about illegals working the firelines. I wonder, those of you so opposed to this, if you were one of the 30,000 that have been evacuated from their homes, (or since someone will inevitably bring up that these are Canadian fires - If you had lived in Colorado or Arizona last summer or any threatened area right now) how many of you would ask to see the green card of the crew that showed up to create a fire line between the fire and your home? Are you going to turn away the guy that is putting his life on the line for $6.90 an hour to save your property because of his immigration status?
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
[ edited by Fenix03 on Aug 23, 2003 12:27 AM ]
posted on August 23, 2003 07:38:34 AM new
NIce swerve Twelve but not the question. Come on Mr Morality, what do you do? Are you willing to sacrifice your home for your views or are you just thankful to those that help you save it, no matter what their citizenship may be?
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 23, 2003 08:32:13 AM new
I agree with twelvepole, if our laws were being enforced this would not be an issue. Homes would have the same protection only by American citizens....and LEGAL immigrants.
I think that the best way to combat illegal immigration is to elimiate the need for it. Are you saying that every country in the world would have to have living conditions that match ours, and then this wouldn't be an issue? If you are....that's not realistic and it's not going to happen.
And in the article I posted it used the baseline salary at minimum wage. Typical when one is trying to make a point to support a case for illegals being here at all.
Firefighters all over CA make excellent money. My son was looking into joining Sunnyvales [CA] fire/police departments. Academy graduates starting salary is $66,151 - $76,579 When they reach grade II
the salary range is $70,001 - $87,214. Definately NOT minimun wage.
posted on August 23, 2003 08:36:16 AM new
LOL - Come on Twelve - you can do better than that. How strongly do you hold to your beliefs? What are you willing to sacrifice for them? Admit it Twelve - you would welcome their help. You would welcome those same illegals you long so badly to use as target practice if they were there to help you. Come on Twelve ... you can do it.. just admit it. It won't hurt.... much I bet you would probably bring them a sandwhich and something cold to drink too in gratitude.
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 23, 2003 08:44:47 AM new
::I agree with twelvepole, if our laws were being enforced this would not be an issue. ::
That is not the question Linda - The question stemmed from an article says that they are already there. Are you going to check the citizenship of those that come to your aid in time of crisis?
::Are you saying that every country in the world would have to have living conditions that match ours,::
No- I'm saying that. That's a little extreme. Running water, sewage systems, the ability to feed and put a roof over your family. Basic needs. That's what I was referring to.
::Firefighters all over CA make excellent money. My son was looking into joining Sunnyvales [CA] fire/police departments. Academy graduates starting salary is $66,151 - $76,579 When they reach grade II the salary range is $70,001 - $87,214. Definately NOT minimun wage.::
I realize that Linda but in the article you were referring to those possible illegal are not Academy grads, they are not even full time employed or trained. They are short term seasonal labor making minimum or a little above. They are not making 87K
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 23, 2003 09:26:04 AM new
Fenix, if I knew they were illegal, yes I would let them save my home, I would give them something cold to drink and at the same time call INS to report them.
It would be my DUTY as a legal US citizen to do so. To not do so is to make me a criminal as well.
I can see your misunderstanding now, you are equating forest firefighters with regular Firefighters... living in SD I can understand your ignorance of the difference.
Hell when I was in High School in WV, we could go out and fight forest fires in the fall...
There is not much skill involved
that is the crux of the article, that they are getting people who do not understand ENGLISH, which is all you really need to do to be successful at that.
Getting back to the original topic... no illegals should not be educated here, in stating that, illiteracy amongst them would make it easier to weed them out and send back where they came from.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
[ edited by Twelvepole on Aug 23, 2003 09:47 AM ]
posted on August 23, 2003 10:09:18 AM new
::I can see your misunderstanding now, you are equating forest firefighters with regular Firefighters... living in SD I can understand your ignorance of the difference. ::
I was presenting you with a hypothetical. If your imagination can't remove you from the big city and into the situation that was presented, that is your problem, not my ignorance.
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 23, 2003 11:43:50 AM newilliteracy amongst them would make it easier to weed them out and send back where they came from.
INS officers go into public places, single out people who do not look like "Americans", or who are (gasp) speaking something other than english, and hold them at gunpoint while they force them to take a reading test....yeah, that'll work
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What luck for the leaders that men do not think. - Adolph Hitler
posted on August 23, 2003 12:27:52 PM new
Can't respond to what Twelve? What is it that you wanted me to respond to? By all means, please elaborate.
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 23, 2003 12:30:27 PM new
Prof - With the shape of our current educational system, there are probably as many citizens as non-citizens that would fail that test
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 23, 2003 01:03:19 PM newThe question stemmed from an article says that they are already there. Are you going to check the citizenship of those that come to your aid in time of crisis
As it stands now the employer has the responsibility to hire only employees that are already here legally. If they are not doing their jobs, then hefty fines might help them to come around. This doesn't have to be done in a time of crisis. And yes, if this industry is one of those believed to have illegals working in it, then by all means, their hiring records [verification of status] should be checked.
What bothers me most is reading when illegals are reported the INS and sometimes the local police won't do a thing about it. Won't enforce the laws on the books.
And on the giving housing [etc] to those you speak of....it's not US citizens responsibility to provide for the basic needs of those from other countries so they won't want/need to come here illegally. First off, they could do it properly and enter legally. We need to take care of our own.
posted on August 23, 2003 01:42:40 PM newProf - With the shape of our current educational system, there are probably as many citizens as non-citizens that would fail that test
Yes I am quite sure Profe would know about that...
Linda, probably because people such as Fenix and Profe have putrified our society to the point that somehow our Officers forget this scum are criminals.
posted on August 23, 2003 02:03:33 PM new
As it stands now the employer has the responsibility to hire only employees that are already here legally. If they are not doing their jobs, then hefty fines might help them to come around. ::
Why is it that no one seems to want to answer the actual question. I think it took three times for Twelve and now you work around it too. Five spanish speaking men show up outside you mountain home to help clear cut the area and save you home from an approaching fire. Do you check their status or just appreciate their help?
::What bothers me most is reading when illegals are reported the INS and sometimes the local police won't do a thing about it. Won't enforce the laws on the books.::
::And on the giving housing [etc] to those you speak of....it's not US citizens responsibility to provide for the basic needs of those from other countries so they won't want/need to come here illegally. First off, they could do it properly and enter legally. We need to take care of our own.::
Are you addressing something that I have said here because I don't recall ever saying that it is the US's responsibility to provide anything to other countries. I said that the best way to lessen immigriation is to lesson the need and those are too very different things.
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on August 23, 2003 02:32:30 PM newWhy is it that no one seems to want to answer the actual question.
I didn't answer it because it's silly.....and is never going to happen. Just as no one would ever appear at my home and ask me how I feel about illegals putting our my house fire before they agreed to do so.
If someone's home is about to burn down, whether they support or don't support illegals in our country...NO ONE is going to ask ANY ONE their legal status... either way. Any person around would help put the fire out. As I said before, this should have been addressed by the employer prior to their being hired for the job.
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And on your I said that the best way to lessen immigriation is to lesson the need....maybe I did take your post incorrectly. Just how do you think we could lessen their need/desire to come here. Since you had mentioned water, housing, etc. I made the assumption that you were saying they would continue to come illegally until they had those basic needs/wants met. What are you proposing as the solution then?
posted on August 23, 2003 02:39:51 PM new
If you want to come to this country, follow the rules and do it legally. Is that too much to ask?
I don't care what race you are. If you come here illegally, steal someone's social security number and create a false identity, then I think you need to be arrested and deported.
But some think we should provide them with housing, welfare checks, food stamps, medical care, education and a drivers license.
