I am at the end of my rope with this situation, and am posting here as a last-ditch attempt. Hope I can get some help.
On October 30, 2000, I paid for an item using PayPal. The transaction in question is
#204580667H180214L. Shortly after, I received an e-mail from the seller indicating that his distributor was out of stock on the item, and it would be a 4-8 week delay in shipping.
In early January, I attempted to contact the seller several times, trying to get a shipping status. All inquiries were met with silence.
In early February, I filed a fraud report thru PayPal. According to an e-mail I received from 'Shannon', the report could be filed from the date of promised delivery.
I filed the report, and received this confirmation:
> Thank you for contacting PayPal. We have
> received your transaction complaint and
> will contact you by email as our
> investigation warrants.
> Please note that our investigation is done
> on a best effort basis and
> PayPal does not guarantee funds recovery.
> Investigations may take up to 35
> days to complete.
I waited. And waited. And waited some more...
On April 13, I received this, from an anonymous PayPal rep (no name given):
> PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy applies to
> purchases for which payment was
> sent through PayPal on or after 8/1/00.
> Because your inquiry applies to a
> purchase made before that date, we cannot
> reverse your transaction or issue
> a refund.
In addition to being totally inaccurate, it is a slap in the face to wait over 2 months for such a weak excuse, especially when PayPal created an expectation that 35 days would be the worst case.
I sent several e-mailed requests to re-open this case to both <[email protected]> and
<[email protected]>. All of my requests were ignored.
I then attempted to file a new fraud claim via the 'buyer protection' area of PayPal.com.
On May 29th, I also phoned PayPal's support line @ (402) 935-7733. I talked to 'Dina', who transferred me to 'Mark', who promised that he would look into the situation, and call me back that afternoon. Surprisingly, I am still waiting for that return call.
I have since had e-mail contact with a rep (sorry, but I don't have these e-mails with me), who is now sticking to 'PayPal policy', that I waited too long after payment was sent to file this claim. I have indicated that I was told differently by 'Shannon', and have even forwarded that e-mail stating this, but this point is just sidestepped, and 'PayPal policy' gets cited again and again.
On Thursday (05/31), I had finally reached the end of my patience. I asked that either PayPal follow through with what 'Shannon' told me was going to happen, or that PayPal please cancel my account. I re-sent this e-mail last night, as I have not heard back, and my account is still active.
Please help! I'd hate to lose out on the convienience that PayPal offers, but I will not accept the 'Keystone Cops' routine from customer service.
If you need any additional info, I'd be happy to supply it.
Thank you in advance for your assistance in this trying and frustrating endevor.
Rob Militzer
[ edited by purplehaze1967 on Jun 5, 2001 01:52 PM ]
I don't know what paypaldamon will do for you and I do hope that you receive a refund. After that, though, take it and run!
Look around this message center and you will see the many complaints and horror stories involving PayPal, their poorly worded policies, inept customer service and complete denial of any responsibility.
They actually protect sellers such as the one your are complaining about!
Get your money back (if at all possible) and follow through with cancelling your account!
Maybe within a year, we will all be reading about the class action suit PayPal is inviting by their conduct.
posted on June 5, 2001 06:10:44 AM new
Hi chansen:
You are 100% right. My expactations at this point are really low. I posted as a last-ditch attempt to get this straightened out, but also to add my story to the long list of those who have had problems.
It does seem that this dishonest seller has breezed thru this transaction consequence-free (and in fact is still an active member of PayPal), while I have had nothing but a bunch of hassle and frustration. Hmmmm...
Unfortunately for me, I can no more force PayPal to follow thru on their comittments then I could force the seller to.
If PayPal finally lives up to what 'Shannon' told me, I'll continue to be a customer. That would show me that PayPal means well, even though the customer service area is riddled with incompetence. If not, I will be sure that this experience gets told on every appropriate internet venue, since that would indicate that PayPal has no concern for customer satisfaction, and will LIE if need be. Not the kind of company I want to do business with.
But right now, the jury is out, and I sincerely hope that Damon can slice thru the red tape and finally put this issue to rest.
I apologize for the confusion, the problem with the claim is not the date
of the transaction (10/30/00), but the fact that the claim was filed over
three months after the transaction took place. As a practical matter we
ask that buyer complaint claims be filed within a 30 day time frame (as per
the instructions on the web site), but will accept claims up to 60 days
after the transaction. On a "best effort" basis, the longer the time
between the payment and the filing of the claim, the less chances there are
for recovery.
In this case, the claim was filed well beyond any reasonable time frame for
a successful recovery. Credit card companies have similar policies and
strictly adhere to 30 or 60 day time frames for filing disputes.
After that much time, a seller cannot be reasonably expected to maintain
shipping records and some shippers reuse tracking numbers after a certain
time frame, so the tracking may have been valid when the payment was made,
but invalid three months later.
I apologize for the outcome in this case, but the claim was filed well
after a time frame when we can accept it. You may have other avenues of
recourse available to you with the auction site.
Sincerely,
Craig
Complaint Resolution Department
---------------------------------------------
my response:
---------------------------------------------
I will ask a THIRD time for you to PLEASE focus on this correspondence I received
from 'Shannon':
> Thank you for contacting PayPal.
> I will forward the information needed to
> file a fraud report. The fraud
> report may be filed from the date of
> promised delivery.
Please focus on this statement:
"The fraud report may be filed from the date of promised delivery."
I will ask you as plain as I can...is this a LIE?
Also, if the problem was not the date of the transaction in question, why did
PayPal's reply of 04/13 indicate that it was?
Please respond to the questions I asked, and do not fall back on quoting PayPal
policy.
Thank you in advance for your accurate and complete response to the issues I
raised in this e-mail.
Rob
--------------------------------------------
email #2:
Dear PayPal User,
Please see the terms of use as I have copied them:
Complaints must be filed no later than 30 days from the date of payment.
PayPal will seek to resolve the complaint within 30 days from the date the
complaint is filed, though such time frame may be extended, if appropriate,
to accommodate the investigation.
Since we have closed the claim, you may have other avenues of recourse, but
we will not pursue the case any further.
Sincerely,
Craig
Complaint Resolution Department
---------------------------------------------
my response:
I did not ask about the quoted terms of use...in fact I SPECIFICALLY asked that
you comment on the email I received from 'Shannon'. Please explain how to interpret
it, if it does not mean that I can file from the date of promised delivery.
Here it is again, in case you lost track of it:
Subject: Re: quite poor (KMM7640420C0KM)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 12:35:02 -0800
From: Expectations- <[email protected]>
To: Rob <[email protected]>
Dear Mr. Militzer,
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
I will forward the information needed to file a fraud report. The fraud
report may be filed from the date of promised delivery.
Thank you for your interest in PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy
If you pay a seller who does not ship the promised goods, you should first
contact the seller directly and attempt to resolve the dispute. If you are
not able to resolve the dispute directly with the seller, you may file a
buyer protection claim under PayPal's Buyer Protection policy.
You may submit your claim by replying to this email with the following
information (please provide the information in the same format as below):
1) Your email address
2) Date of transaction
3) Amount of transaction
4) Seller's email address
5) Category of merchandise (choose from the following list)
a. Computer Hardware or Software
b. Home/Consumer Electronics
c. Jewelry
d. Antiques/Collectibles
e. Other
6) Type of Dispute (choose from the following list)
a. Non-receipt of goods
b. Goods not as described
PayPal will investigate your claim, contact the seller and, if the seller
does not provide appropriate proof of shipment, a full refund, or other
evidence of a satisfactory resolution, PayPal will seek to collect the
amount of the transaction from the seller on a best effort basis. You and
other buyers who file claims against the same seller will be entitled to
the return of any and all funds PayPal is able to collect from the seller,
on a first-come, first served basis.
Please note that recovery of your claim is not guaranteed. We will
actively work this claim on a best effort basis.
PayPal will seek to resolve your claim within 35 days from the date the
claim is filed, though such time frame may be extended to accommodate the
investigation.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.
Sincerely,
Shannon
PayPal Customer Service
===========================================
We at PayPal would like to know how well this response accommodated your
request. Click on the appropriate link to send your feedback. We welcome
The terms of use would supercede the info in any email. Again, I apologize
for the outcome of this claim, and while you may have recourse through
other means, the PayPal claim has been closed.
Sincerely,
Craig
Complaint Resolution Department
--------------------------------------------
my response:
--------------------------------------------
That is just spectacular. One of your reps gives me information that leads to a 3 month expenditure of time and effort on my part, then you 'decide' at a later date that the earlier statements do not apply. If I were told this in February, I could accept it. Now it is too late for me to skulk away with my tail between my legs.
I feel, that as a customer service gesture, something should be done to accomodate
me and all the frustration I have been thru. If this is not in the cards, I'll request AGAIN for you to please remove my account from your active customer base. Please at least do me that courtesy, if nothing else, ok?
posted on June 5, 2001 08:33:03 AM new
Judging by the content of this email, PayPal is not willing to do ANYTHING to help make this situation (which they themselves caused by 'Shannons' email) right:
Again, I am sorry for the outcome of this claim, I have already advised you that you may have other avenues of recourse, but we are no longer going to pursue this claim. I can give you instructions on how to close your account.
If you think there is a chance you may want to use our service in the future, it is not necessary that you shut down your account. You're welcome to use your account as much or as little as you wish.
If you've decided you want to close down your PayPal account, please follow these instructions:
1. Log into your account. You can do this by visiting http://www.paypal.com and entering your email address and password in the
Member Login box.
2. Click the "Profile" subtab.
3. Click the "Close Account" link on the left of the screen.
4. Click the "Continue" button.
5. Click the "Cancel Account" button.
Sincerely,
Craig
Complaint Resolution Department
---------------------------------------------
Damon, please let me know if you can help, as I'll sever all ties with PayPal otherwise...the sooner, the better.
If, as you were previously told by PayPal, this is true:
The terms of use would supercede the info in any email.
it would then appear that nothing Damon says here on the boards regarding PayPal's policies (aside from a direct quote from the TOU, of course) can be taken as a true representation of those policies (at least, as they intend to live up to them).
This does explain why so often, when a question is asked, instead of an answer to the question, the TOU is quoted.
posted on June 5, 2001 10:47:00 AM new
Dear Purplehaze1967,
Thanks for posting all your correspondence. It illustrates the chronic problems consumers have with PayPal - problems that are frequently denied here and elsewhere by PayPal.
Not only was your problem handled poorly on several occasions, the replies demonstrate PayPal's corporate mindset on consumer relations. Since PayPal accepted your dispute and began an investigation, they have an obligation to you.
I advise you to complain to the BBB; since PayPal has an unsatisfactory rating with the BBB it has been reported that consumers receive a more thorough and prompt response from PayPal through this agency.
posted on June 5, 2001 11:28:48 AM new
The jury has already returned in my case.
I've given up on PayPal resolving this and have filed (one of many, I'm sure) a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.
If nothing else, some really bad PR might make a dent in PayPal's profits. They obviously don't care about all the dents in their credibility or reputation.
posted on June 6, 2001 01:57:21 PM new
a little advice: throw the paypal monkey off your back. file a complaint the the better business bureau, the federal trade commission and file a small claim action against them (you can get the forms from santa clara county superior court, california).
posted on June 6, 2001 02:01:36 PM new
Hi IHatePayPal:
I'd like to see what Damon can do before I proceed further.
If he cannot resolve this to my satisfaction, I am planning on filing with the BBB. Not sure about the FTC (I'll have to educate myself more before I decide), and I doubt I'll file a small claims case. Not really cost effective to travel from Michigan to California over a $120 dispute.
posted on June 6, 2001 04:26:45 PM new
PayPal must hope we die waiting for them to resolve these complaints!
Either they have the worst record keeping system in the world or they or they operate out of shoe boxes.
"Please send me your account email address again. I will follow-up with the Buyer Complaint team." That sounds like another delay tactic that really means... "I don't want to tell you to go away, but I hope you get tired of waiting for an answer." Just by reading the previous posts and copies of e-mail message to and from PayPal, I can figure out what your "account email address" probably is! Who do they think they are kidding?
Who is "paypaldamon" anyway? With the serious and numerous complaints on this board, I think we would all appreciate some direct responses from someone on the "buyer complaint team." After all, it doesn't look like they spend much time investigating cases of seller fraud or protecting honest buyers.
Again, I wish you the best in collecting your money, but I would be surprised if PayPal follows through with anything they promise.
[ edited by chansen on Jun 6, 2001 04:33 PM ]
If nothing else, this thread can serve as a shining example of what dealing with PayPal's customer (dis)service can be like. If it can keep one person from suffering the same fate as myself, that's good enough for me.
I really hope that paypaldamon does not think that I'll go away if ignored. I have been pressing this since February, and have been ignored by PayPal many, many times. If that was going to work, I would have stopped long ago.
I think many companies would have given me at least a partial refund after all this, as a customer service gesture, if nothing else. I have pretty much given up any hope that PayPal would feel that way.
posted on June 6, 2001 05:20:12 PM newPayPal must hope we die waiting for them to resolve these complaints!
They are hoping you do not a file a chargeback with your credit card company within the 60 days you are allowed.
The TOS cryptically states that it does not "obviate" you from your rights under the Fair Credit Billing Act, but in the same document asserts the right to terminate you for using those rights.
Although I'm sure that is at least part of the reason for the slow response from customer service, it is a moot point is this case. Mine was a direct checking account transfer.
posted on June 11, 2001 10:21:38 AM new
Since it is indisputably clear that:
- PayPal erred
- Gave the type of poor customer service and
corporatespeak that Damon says doesn't
occur
- And Damon can't do anything about it
He is not going to rush to help you. We might respect their replies more if Damon simply said "We blew it" but that is not the PayPal way. The PayPal way is to deny, evade and deflect blame on every issue. Which is why so many people come to this board extremely agitated. No one expects a company to be perfect - but no one likes to be mistreated...
You have hit the nail right on the head. This whole thread could be summed up with your post alone.
At this point, I hold out very little hope that a favorable resoultion will be offered by PayPal. I am keeping this issue alive to offer another illustration of the extreme hassle PayPal puts its customers through when they dare to ask customer service for some assistance.
All these people that post here (and other places) that PayPal is a great service and anyone who complains is either a whiner or someone with a hidden agenda will have no choice but to concede in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary. I'm kind of surprised that I have remained free from attack from some of these cheerleaders.
I will continue to bump this topic to the top every few days until I get a response from PayPal. At that time, I'll post it, and be done here.
posted on June 11, 2001 12:53:09 PM new
If one were cynical, one might conclude that PayPal's hope would be that by refusing to respond to this user's concern, the topic would not continually be brought back to the top of the list where more people might see it, and might eventually drop off the first page (and effectively, disappear).
posted on June 11, 2001 12:57:50 PM new
mrpotatoheadd:
Many people, when met with indifference, may simply just shrug their shoulders and give up. Not me. As long as I am kept waiting for an answer, I'll make sure this topic stays near the top.
What a great PR boost for PayPal this must be. If just one rep showed just a glimmer of respect for me as a customer, and understanding of my situation, it would never have gone this far. Every post I make is further testimony to PayPal support's utter unwillingness to do the very basic things that keep customers happy and content.
Like I said above, many (dare I say most) businesses would have offered at least a partial refund by now, just to smooth over a bad situation that they helped create. Not PayPal. Stubborn until the bitter end...
[ edited by purplehaze1967 on Jun 11, 2001 01:04 PM ]
posted on June 11, 2001 04:36:55 PM new
Hi purplehaze,
The information I have states that the transaction was in October and you filed your claim in February, which was well after the timeline specified in the terms of use ( which was 60 days at that time)
I have also been advised that the Buyer Complaint team did contact you about the matter.
posted on June 11, 2001 04:52:54 PM new
Well, there you go, purplehaze- you follow the directions given to you by their customer service department, and then they tell you you're SOL because you didn't conform to their TOU.
I NEVER claimed that the payment did not happen in October. I also NEVER claimed that the claim was not filed in February. In fact, I indicated this in my initial message.
Great fact-finding skills...whoopeee!!!
PayPal rep 'Shannon' committed to opening this claim, based on 30 days from the date of promised delivery. I have posted that e-mail all over this board. I'm sure you have seen it. Why do you seem to act like it doesn't exist?
The claim was opened, processed, then denied for a false reason. Again, I have e-mails stating so. I have posted these as well, and will do so again if you need to see them.
Your and 'Craigs' insistance on clinging to the '30 days from purchase date' clause is ridiculous when I have e-mail proof to the contrary. It is getting tiresome re-iterating the obvious to those who choose to ignore facts that do not support their position. I'll be most happy to forward any relevent e-mail to you, 2 or 3 times, even, if that would help.
As far as your claim that I have been contacted, that is 100% FALSE. No contact has been made from anyone PayPal at any time. All contacts have been initiated by me and were prior to your receipt of my 'account e-mail address'. Steeeeerike TWO.
I cannot make PayPal live up to their committments. I can just hope that SOMEONE at PayPal can agree that I have received poor support from PayPal, and can also see the value in good customer relations. I know that is delusional thinking when it comes to PayPal.
[ edited by purplehaze1967 on Jun 11, 2001 05:08 PM ]
posted on June 11, 2001 05:18:21 PM new
In not one of the responses from PayPal or Damon have they acknowledged the rep gave you incorrect information.
Not one.
I think I'll join with PurpleHaze in bumping this thread until someone does and apologizes for the error.
