posted on May 7, 2004 05:11:46 PM new
damn, took skylite off ignore....
he/she whatever, skylite is UN American for posting that FLAG UP THERE, with the swastika where the stars are supposed to be.
kraft: How do you see Skylite as America-hating? He lives in America, Replay.
You mean: North America. Why then would someone living in the United States put their email addy as a CANADIAN email? If skylite is American, then he or she is ashamed of the U.S.?? (oh QUICK skylite, go change it..... I've seen it, I know what that ISP email you have IS in Canada)
YES, and I also see this, plus his or her last post as being America-hating.
I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh either, but skylite goes beyond whatever, and post s h i t most of the time.
Yeah, look at my profile, had it there since I changed to this name..... its a phoney one..... but its an AMERICAN one!
[email protected]
__________________________________ In cyberspace, you can't hear a liberal scream.
posted on May 7, 2004 05:20:04 PM new
Linda...get a grip..You are waaaay out of line. Your slanderous remarks to me are becoming obnoxious to say the least. Who in the hell is going to want to chat with you. I certainly don't. Go back to bed or back to lurking.
What is slanderous Helen? What? You all think that skylite is an American. Well, he could be. Is Skylite his real name? How is she slandering him? Here we go again....
Who the hell is going to want to 'chat' with Linda. I DO, and I WILL.
BTW, when have you ever 'chatted' here Helen (oh except to pat kraft one the back and say Great Post! or some other poster, who has the same POV as you do) like I said before, I've tried to be nice to you a lot..... I'll say how was your weekend, or What are you doing this weekend? I've done it quite a few times.... never a response.... That would be 'chatting'
__________________________________ In cyberspace, you can't hear a liberal scream.
"The Secret Service has announced it is doubling its protection for John Kerry. You can understand why — with two positions on every issue, he has twice as many people mad at him." —Jay Leno
posted on May 7, 2004 05:55:52 PM new
In RL I'm a very quiet person but I still express my opinions.
I have my own views on this particular topic as well as any other that I comment on.
My words are here for all to see and I leave my messages on the boards so anyone can go back and read what I said on this particular topic today if they wish to.
I'm really tired of being lumped in with everyone else here. I can speak for myself. If I say I'm supporting anyone or anything or another point of view you will read it straight from me. Don't assume just because others post pics or messages that I support it all, we just happen to be on the same topic at the same time.
posted on May 7, 2004 06:16:54 PM new
kiara, I am not sure who that was addressed to. But I was not lumping you with anyone, I was directly posting to skylite, and to Helen, and just the general 'Un American' stuff. Not you.
__________________________________ In cyberspace, you can't hear a liberal scream.
Had to go out for a few minutes. It's good to know that you will be here to chat with Linda. I've always tried to be friendly with you and answer your questions. If I missed the one about my weekend, I'm really sorry. Enjoy this weekend!
posted on May 7, 2004 06:40:11 PM new
Damn right kraft...
I make no apologies for my posts... certainly not to the baghdad three...
Comparing America to Nazi Germany is about as anti-american as you can get... dumbass thinks that people condone this... not in the least, I also do not believe this was a widespread event... those supporting skylite in this subject is as anti-american as it is... ergo Baghdad three...
Passive acceptance... didn't notice anyone else pointing out how wrong skylite is.
Still doesn't understand that picture is of a British Soldier... dumbass...
I have said in several threads that I do not agree with their treatment, neither have I lost sight these are still prisoners and not "good" people of Iraq...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
It's too bad that their blindness can't see they are killing more soldiers than President Bush ever has... Protest Loud and Proud! Your fellow taliban and insurgents are rejoicing at the support...
I think torture is unamerican and even worse than the desecration of the flag which is only symbolic. Torture of POW's is not only inhumane but it also endangers our troops and damages our reputation all over the world.
posted on May 7, 2004 06:53:28 PM new
Helen, did you forget about the Iraqis that killed and mutilated American CIVILANS not too long ago?
The treatment that these American soldiers gave to the Iraqi prisoners, no, I would not say Un or Anti American, I would say
STUPID AMERICANS
its been said that the rest of the world does not like Americans. If someone from one of these other countries come in here and see pictures of a OUR flag like that, it just reinforces their hatred......
So keep it up skylite
__________________________________ In cyberspace, you can't hear a liberal scream.
posted on May 7, 2004 07:08:26 PM new
I'm not justifying a thing
American civilians killed. Iraqi prisoners tortured. I have already said it was inhumane and they were STUPID.
I'm not trying to defend the flag picture --It's not one that I would have chosen but I think I understand skylite's message.
What is there to understand? Your an American. If its an Anti Bush statement, he's wrong, its not, its an Anti American statement. That flag was around long before anyone heard of Bush. That flag is flys for all Americans. Its NOT a Presidential Symbol!
__________________________________ In cyberspace, you can't hear a liberal scream.
posted on May 7, 2004 07:22:23 PM new "American civilians killed. Iraqi prisoners tortured. I have already said it was inhumane and they were STUPID."
That sentence looks like you are suggesting tit for tat. In my opinion there is no excuse for torture. It's against the Geneva convention, our Democratic values and as you say, it's simply inhumane. It's unamerican in my opinion. The flag represents our values throughout history. Those values are being taxed by the actions of the Bush administration and now by the revelation that POW's are being tortured. Such actions serve to diminish our flag more than any silly picture can.
posted on May 7, 2004 07:38:27 PM new
What the Iraqi's in prison suffered is not torture.
Torture is extreme physical abuse like what Saddam did to hundreds of thousands of his country men, women & children. Torture is lowing a living human into a meat grinder. Torture is pouring acid on the genitalia of living men, women & children. Torture was the specialty of Uday. Torture is the pealing of flesh from living beings. Not to mention the chemical gasses that were released to kill his opponents. All of which Saddam was directly responsible.
Torture is defined as:
.
Main Entry: tor·ture
Pronunciation: 'tor-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquEre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drAhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle
1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
What the prisoners were subjected to was wrong. But it was not torture. It was public humiliation, it was mental humiliation.
Were the prisoners injured when photographed in a stacked pile or leaning against a wall, or laying on the floor on a leash.
Will any of them suffer long term physical problems from the actions of a few losers, no? They have been humiliated at worse, they will get over it or they won't.
If you haven't already read of them, below is a recap of their bankground:
Reporting from Cumberland, Md., the New York Times profiles some of the soldiers implicated in abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, and to be honest, they sound like a bunch of losers:
Specialist Charles A. Graner Jr. is a guard at one of Pennsylvania's most heavily secured death row prisons, accused by his former wife of violent behavior.
Pfc. Lynndie R. England was married and divorced before she was 21, worked at a chicken-processing plant in West Virginia and wanted to attend college to become a storm-chasing meteorologist.
And Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick, another prison guard, planned to quit the Army Reserve this year to spend more time fishing near his rural home in central Virginia. But he did not get out soon enough. . . .
Specialist Graner, who wears a Marine Corps eagle tattoo on his right arm, served in the corps from April 1988 until May 1996, when he left with the rank of corporal, according to military records. He went to work immediately at the State Correctional Institution Greene, in southwestern Pennsylvania, where he has held an entry-level corrections officer position ever since.
Two years after he arrived at Greene, the prison was at the center of an abuse scandal. Prison officials declined to say whether Specialist Graner had been disciplined in that case, citing privacy laws.
Inmates and advocates for prisoner rights asserted in 1998 that guards at the prison routinely beat and humiliated prisoners, including through a sadistic game of Simon Says in which guards struck prisoners who failed to comply with barked instructions.
After an investigation, the warden was transferred, two lieutenants were fired and about two dozen guards were reprimanded, demoted or suspended.
Specialist Graner was involved in a bitter divorce. In court papers, his wife, Staci, accused him of beating her, threatening her with guns, stalking her after they separated in 1997 and breaking into her home. Since 1997, local judges have issued at least three orders of protection against him, records show.
No doubt many people enter the military and successfully overcome troubled lives. But it also occurs to us that increasing the quality of military recruits would probably help avoid future Abu Ghraibs. One constructive step toward that end would be for elite universities to drop antimilitary policies, so that the military would have an easier time signing up the best and brightest young Americans.
Many academic institutions have barred ROTC or military recruiters from campus for left-wing political reasons--first as a protest against the Vietnam War, and later over the Clinton-era "don't ask, don't tell" law. Whatever the merits of these positions, it's time the academic left showed some patriotic responsibility and acknowledged that the defense of the country--which includes the defense of their own academic freedom--is more important than the issue du jour.
"The Secret Service has announced it is doubling its protection for John Kerry. You can understand why — with two positions on every issue, he has twice as many people mad at him." —Jay Leno
posted on May 7, 2004 07:52:16 PM new
I agree that it was not torture and that it was humiliation gone public with the release of the pictures. Being stripped naked and having your photograph taken is just a fact of life when you are in prison. Heck they do the same thing in prisons here in the US.
posted on May 7, 2004 07:59:31 PM new
Key excerpts from the Taguba report
a. Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;
b. Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
c. Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
d. Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;
e. Threatening male detainees with rape;
f. Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;
g. Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.
h. Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.
(T)he intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:
a. Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
b. Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
c. Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;
d. Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;
e. Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;
f. Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
g. Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;
h. Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;
i. Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;
j. Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;
k. A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;
l. Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;
m. Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.
These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements.
posted on May 7, 2004 08:15:04 PM new
I think torture could be described better as what they did to; Jessica and the others captured along with her!
Who apologized for that?
I think our little group here would have much rather seen those light hearted photos of our soldiers being treated so well,rather than the awful ones of Iraqi prisoners being treated so badly.
posted on May 7, 2004 08:28:03 PM new
Helen, you gave me a good chuckle reading this thread tonight! [b]Without Linda here,[b/]the fight that you seem to so enjoy sails right out of your posts!! (Surely, even you realize that on some level?) ha-ha
Linda, although we dont agree on quite a few ideals, I never have a problem chatting or throwing ideas back and force with you. Sorry I am not even around that much lately to do it that often, but I do check in here and there.
posted on May 7, 2004 09:21:04 PM new
And now, there has been a report published, along with somevery shameful pictures, detailing Iraqi prisoner abuse at the hands of US Soldiers. I know our troops are having their one-year deployments extended when they only had a few weeks left, and they are fidning these last minute disappointments very frustrating. This of course creates the environment where frustrated power figures can take out their anger on helpless prisoners.
But I would like to set the record straight and assure you all that these incidents are simple misunderstanding that have been blown out of proportion by the media. I will now detail for you each incident, as posted in a Pentagon report...
6.a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
Now this is simply a misuderstanding. Nobody jumped on the detainees feet.
The soldiers were merely trying to teach te detainees a little bit about American culture, when a very enthusiastic lesson on the 'Hokey Pokey' -- specifically during the "put your right foot in" part --just simply went awry. Furthremore, this situation was exasporated in such cramped quarters when they try to "turn yourself around". That's all it was. Nothing to see here, move along.
6.b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
What? Now do you see how stereotyical the media can be? There can be Russian mail order brides. Korean mail order brides. Thai mail order brides. But noooo, one entrepeneuring solder wants to get a jump on a photo catalog for Iraqi mail order brides, and suddenly he's a bad guy. That's not fair.
6.c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;
With the removal of Uday from the their olympic comittee, there is more enthusiam in Iraqi sports. These men were merely being coaches in some cheerleading, specifically the human pyramids. We've all see it done in "Bring It On", and they're just trying to adapt the same steps there in Iraq. Because the detainees are so new at this, the fine form of the pyramid was not eaily seen, and thus misunderstood as something else by the chickenhawk media. Bastards.
6.d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;
Uh, it's Iraq. It's hot. Duh.
6.e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear;
Hey! Hey! This whole war was about bring democracy and freedom to Iraq. And if this guy wants to wear women's underwear, then who the hell are we to judge him? What he does behind closed doors is his own business, not yours. So get your damn cameras out of here and give the man his space. Freedom of choice, people. Don't judge.
6.f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
Again, just a misunderstanding by the media. These individuals were complensated for their actions with money and marijuana. So now, if you order one copy of "Girls Gone Wild" and get a complimentary copy of "Detainees Gone Wild" for free! Shipping and Handling not included.
6.g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;
Oh, and now you're going to tell me that you've never played naked Twister, right? Don't judge!
6.h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;
No, no, no. Everyone was playing hide-and-go-seek. As there really aren't many places to hide in a jail cell obviously, this resourceful fellow was merely disguising himself as a floor lamp. And he remained completely hidden, I might add, until he sneezed. And yes, he did win, by the way.
6.i. (S) Writing "I AM A RAPEST" (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;
This was simply a misspelling, brought on by the difficulties of communicating between two different languages. This individual is an up and coming musician looking to get his big break with the recently parolled Suge Knight. He hopes to be the first Iraqi RAP-ARTIST. See, no cause for concern. He's just chillin in his cell, beyotch!
6.j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;
Again, who are we to judge what people do behind closed doors. As long as
this detainee can afford the $3.99 per minute to be treated this way by a dominanatrix, I don't see the problem. Neither do you, DO YOU SLAVE?
6.k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;
You liberals. First we wage war. And you piss and moan about how we should
make love not war. Now we make love instead of war, and you complain about that. Is there on pleasing you? Make up your mind!?
6.l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and
frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;
Duh, have none of you seen Oz? Prison officials everywhere will tell you
working with animals is great way to teach the prisoners responsibility and encourage them to cultivate a sense of compassion for other living creatures. Everyone knows the best way to reward a dog for obeying your commands is by giving them treats. So how can you possibly give a gid a Scooby snack if he's got a muzzle on? You can't. Some of these dogs don't get much attention, so they're very enthusiastic sometimes. We just have to work with the dogs a little bit to teach them to "take it nice" when they get their treats. That's all.
6.m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.
Hello? Crime has been running rampant in Iraq, especially in the big
cities. Murder, rape, theft, and of course, insurance fraud. These photographs were taken to simply put any insurance matters to rest and bring closure.
8.a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;
C'mon, all these lights are non-toxic. Ask any raver.
8.b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
I've threatened to not pay my taxes. I've threatened to quit my job. But
I'm still doing both. So as long as they don't actually *use* the pistol, what's the problem?
8.c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
It's Iraq. It's hot. Duh.
8.d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;
Again, more cultural differences leading to a simple misunderstanding. The
percentage of Hispanic personnel in Coalition forces is at some of the highest levels in history. In an effort to exchange cultural ideas, some prisoners just simply didn't understand what was going on. What's one man's abuse is another man's game of "pinata". Everyone tears dried in the end and everyone got candy. What's the big deal?
8.e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;
Well, as long as they don't actually *rape* the male prisoner, what's the problem?
8.f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a
detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;
What? This soldier pick up a wounded man, giving him first aid, treating
his wounds, and sewing them shut to prevent infection,and he's a bad guy now? How's that happen? Now if that's not unfair bias, then I don't know what is.
8.g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.
A chemical light? Folks, this was just a simple mistake because of
American pop culture. The detainee expressed that he was thirsty and asked for something to drink. After this incident in question, the detainee turned to the guards and clarified, "No I said a *BUD* Light." After that miscommunication was worked out, the prisoner got something to drink and everyone was happy. Now you can't blame us when someone from a foreign place misunderstands our television commercials.
8.h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees
with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.
Again, this was explained earlier. These poor working animals are being kept in kennels, far from their home turd where they feel comfortable, and theyre a little starved for human attention. If they get a little overly enthusiastic sometimes, it's not on purpose. Throw his ball for him!
.
"The Secret Service has announced it is doubling its protection for John Kerry. You can understand why — with two positions on every issue, he has twice as many people mad at him." —Jay Leno
"But Rumsfeld warned the committee that the worst was yet to come. He said he had looked at the full array of unedited photographs of the situation at Abu Ghraib for the first time Thursday night and found them “hard to believe.”"
"“There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he said. “... It’s going to get a good deal more terrible, I’m afraid.”
Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys."
