Don't you know by now that Redmond is stuck in the past like most libs.
If you put corn on one side of a fence and a chicken on the other, the chicken will run back and forth squawking furiously as long as it can. Never once does it see that only a few feet away, there is a way around the fence. Liberals are like chickens. They never learn. They just squawk to get what they want and get nowhere.
"The Secret Service has announced it is doubling its protection for John Kerry. You can understand why — with two positions on every issue, he has twice as many people mad at him." —Jay Leno
posted on May 10, 2004 03:26:03 PM new
Yes...I do see that bear, sorry to say.
To me it's like accusing someone of theft....having no proof of that allegation...but continuing to say it anyway. Then turning the tables on the one that's be accused and saying....prove you're not a thief - when they haven't proven they were to begin with.
posted on May 10, 2004 03:50:09 PM newDon't you know by now that Redmond is stuck in the past like most libs.
Hey, I didn't know Linda, Bear, Twelve, etc. were Democrats! Must be since they, too, are "stuck in the past." Hardly an hour can pass by without them bringing up Clinton in some way. That makes most neo-cons closet Democrats...
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on May 11, 2004 09:51:48 AM newreamond - Maybe you can point out to me ANY site that has made anything other than an accusation about Bush being AWOL. Any site that has not just *questioned* the issue but has been able to prove he was AWOL, rather than just continuing to make the accusation....
Being Absent Without Leave is exactly what the record shows. Bush was unaccounted for for 12 months. His CO didn't know his where abouts as STATED IN BUSH'S RELEASED RECORDS.
Being Absent Without Leave more than 30 is Desertion.
Bush is a Deserter.
Just think what would happened if all of the reserves and NG units in Iraq and Afghanistan decided to just disappear for 12 months like Bush did.
I suppose you can deny Bush's refusal to take a flight physical during time of war and being grounded "honorable behavior" too ?
posted on May 11, 2004 09:55:42 AM new
There are many unanswered questions about Bush's service that need answered. We will be hearing more about this during the debates.
posted on May 11, 2004 12:34:52 PM new
Redmond, again you are posting your beliefs and failing to provide any facts. Where are the links to these mysterious documents. But again most all of your posts fail to provide credible proof to your accusations.
--------------------
George Magazine reported in October of 2000:
It's time to set the record straight . . . . Bush may have received favorable treatment to get into the Guard, served irregularly after the spring of 1972 and got an expedited discharge, but he did accumulate the days of service required of him for his ultimate honorable discharge.
The New York Times reported Nov. 3, 2000:
But a review of records by The New York Times indicated that some of those concerns (about Bush’s absence) may be unfounded . . . . A review by The Times showed that after a seven-month gap, he appeared for duty in late November 1972 at least through July 1973.
The Washington Post also reviewed records and concluded:
It is safe to say that Bush did very light duty in his last two years in the Guard and that his superiors made it easy for him.
Some Democratic partisans have taken a much harsher view.
Democrats.com , a website that sells “Impeach Bush Now” bumper stickers, posted a rebuttal to the George Magazine piece saying “There is no credible evidence that Bush ever reported for duty for the last two years of his military obligation” and suggested “substance abuse as the most likely explanation.”
Michael Moore: "General vs. Deserter"
Michael Moore, in his bestselling book Stupid White Men, included an open letter to President Bush calling him "a possible felon, an unconvicted deserter, and a crybaby."
Moore took it even further during a New Hampshire rally for Clark Jan. 17, predicting Clark would face Bush in the general election. “I want to see that debate, the general versus the deserter,” Moore said with Clark looking on.
Moore ’s "deserter" remark prompted ABC News Anchor Peter Jennings to confront Clark at a Democratic candidates debate Jan. 22:
Jennings: Now, that's a reckless charge not supported by the facts. And I was curious to know why you didn't contradict him . . .
Clark: Well, I think Michael Moore has the right to say whatever he feels about this.I don't know whether this is supported by the facts or not. I've never looked at it. I've seen this charge bandied about a lot. But to me it wasn't material . . .
Jennings: Since this question and answer in which you and Mr. Moore was involved in, you've had a chance to look at the facts. Do you still feel comfortable with the fact that someone should be standing up in your presence and calling the president of the United States a deserter?
Clark: To be honest with you, I did not look at the facts, Peter. You know, that's Michael Moore's opinion. He's entitled to say that. I've seen -- he's not the only person who's said that. I've not followed up on those facts. And frankly, it's not relevant to me and why I'm in this campaign.
Clark ’s reluctance to contradict Moore was criticized the next day by the newspaper that started it all, the Boston Globe, which said in an editorial:
News reports, including some in the Globe , have questioned Bush's constancy as a National Guard airman at the time, but he has not been credibly accused of desertion, a serious charge. Clark should have distanced himself from the remark.
New Evidence Supports Bush Military Service (Mostly)
Newly released records reflect payments and credits for Air National Guard service meeting minimum requirements, despite a six-month gap.
Summary
With Democrats openly accusing President Bush of being "AWOL" from his Air National Guard service during the 1970's, the White House released personnel and payroll records showing Bush was paid and credited for service during the period in question. And despite a six-month gap in service while working on a Senate campaign in Alabama, Air Force Reserve records show Bush was credited with enough points to meet his requirements for that year -- barely.
Analysis
The controversy over President Bush's military record has been heating up since Michael Moore called President Bush a "deserter," (see our earlier article ).
Democrats Make "AWOL" Allegation a Campaign Issue
Democratic National Committee chairman Terry McAuliffe repeatedly accused the President of being “AWOL” in nationally televised interviews.
On Fox News, January 21:
McAuliffe: George Bush never showed up. He was AWOL from the Alabama National Guard. He didn't fight in any battles and General Clark did. So I will put General Clark up against George Bush any day of the week.
And on ABC "This Week" February 1:
McAuliffe: I look forward to that debate when John Kerry, a war hero with a chest full of medals, is standing next to George Bush, a man who was AWOL in the Alabama National Guard. George Bush never served in our military and our country. He didn't show up when he should have showed up.
President Bush defended his service in another nationally television interview, on NBC's "Meet the Press" Feb. 8:
Tim Russert: The Boston Globe and The Associated Press have gone through some of the records and said there’s no evidence that you reported to duty in Alabama during the summer and fall of 1972.
Bush: Yeah, they’re — they're just wrong. There may be no evidence, but I did report; otherwise, I wouldn't have been honorably discharged. In other words, you don't just say "I did something" without there being verification. Military doesn't work that way. I got an honorable discharge, and I did show up in Alabama.
Russert: You did — were allowed to leave eight months before your term expired. Was there a reason?
Bush: Right. Well, I was going to Harvard Business School and worked it out with the military.
Immediately after Bush's appearance John Kerry said Bush’s honorable discharge does not settle the question of whether he skipped Air National Guard drills when he was supposed to. "Just because you get an honorable discharge does not in fact answer that question,'' Kerry told reporters.
In the NBC Interview Bush pledged to release any records that would clear up the matter:
Russert: But you would allow pay stubs, tax records, anything to show that you were serving during that period?
Bush: Yeah. If we still have them, but I — you know, the records are kept in Colorado, as I understand, and they scoured the records.
And I'm just telling you, I did my duty. . . .
Russert: But you authorize the release of everything to settle this?
Bush: Yes, absolutely.
On February 10 Boston Globe reporter Walter V. Robinson -- who first reported four years ago that there was a year-long gap in Bush's record of National Guard service -- reported he had obtained two new documents that partially filled in that gap: "The personnel records. . . . constitute the first evidence that Bush appeared for any duty during the first 11 months of that 12-month period. Bush is recorded as having served the minimum number of days expected of Guard members in that 12 months of service time."
Later that same day the the White House released copies of those documents and others, including payroll records showing Bush had been paid for several drills during the period and was credited with meeting military point requirements for the 12-month period in question.
The White House said it had obtained all the documents from the Air Force Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver, Colorado, and had not known some of them existed until Bush aides inquired after the President promised in his NBC interview to release whatever is available.
What the records show
The records show that National Guard officials credited Bush with enough points to meet minimum requirements for the 12-month period ending May 26, 1973, the period of the original alleged "gap" in his records. An Air Force "Reserve Personnel Record Card" shows Bush received a total of 9 points for active duty training, 31 points for inactive duty training, and 15 points awarded for his membership in the reserves. The points total 56, exceeding the 50-point requirement for satisfactory service during the period, though barely.
Other documents include one-page Air Force Reserve summaries of points earned in the 12-month period ending in May 1973, and the subsequent period running through Bush's last credited service in July 1973. (See "supporting documents".
Also released were copies of microfilm payroll records summarizing the days for which Bush was paid in 1972 and 1973. Though blurry and hard to read, they reflect payments for 82 days of services in 1972 and 1973.
Also released was a memo the White House requested from Retired Lieutenant Colonel Albert. C. Lloyd Jr., a former personnel director for the Texas Air Guard during the time of Bush's service. Lloyd said of the payroll and personnel records, "This clearly shows that 1LT George W. Bush has satisfactory years for both 72-72 and 73-74 which proves that he completed his military obligation in a satisfactory manner."
Lloyd was later interviewed by the Boston Globe , which questioned whether Bush had met "minimum training" requirements in addition to "minimum retirement" credits. The newspaper said Guardsman are required to serve 15 days of active duty to meet training requirements. The Globe quoted Lloyd as saying of Bush: " Should he have done more? Yes, he should have. Did he have to? No."
The records also show that Bush was credited with very little service during the period when he was in Alabama working on the unsuccessful 1972 Senate campaign of Republican Winton Blunt. Bush was paid and also got retirement credit for 30 days in the first four months of 1972, through April 16. But then begins a six-month gap.
During those six months Bush got permission from his National Guard superiors to attend non-flying drills in Montgomery. Also during that time he was officially grounded after he failed to take an annual physical examination required to maintain flying status. But the records show Bush received no pay or credits between April 16 and late October.
The Boston Globe reported Feb. 12 that Bush’s suspension from flight duty while he was in Alabama “should have prompted an investigation by his commander” in Houston under Air Force regulations in effect at the time. The Globe also said “It is unclear whether Bush's commander, Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian, ordered any inquiry, as required.” Killian is deceased.
Guard Service in Alabama?
The records show Bush was paid and credited for drills on October 28 and 29, just days before the 1972 election. The records don't show where the service was performed, but this would have been toward the end of his time in Alabama. Bush was also paid and credited for four days November 11-14, 1972, around the time his aides say Bush was in Alabama briefly following the election.
That tends to support Bush's statement that he did perform duty in Alabama, though it falls short of conclusive proof.
The commander to whom Bush was supposed to report, retired Brigadier General William Turnipseed, said four years ago that he had no recollection of Bush appearing at his unit. But Turnipseed recently backed off that statement a bit, according to the a Washington Post story on February 4. Turnipseed said "he could not recall if he had been on base much at that time," the Post reported.
And after records were released, The Washington Times reported that a woman who had dated Bush during the summer of 1972, Emily Marks Curtis, says she "distinctly remembers" Bush returning to Montgomery after the election to fulfill his Air National Guard commitment. "I can say categorically he was there, and that's why he came back," the Times quoted her as saying. She added that Bush rented an apartment for a two-week stay and that she met him for dinner several times. While she did not claim to have witnessed him doing Guard duty, according to the Times she said, "He told me that was why he was in Montgomery. There is no other reason why he would come back to Montgomery."
And in fact, Bush was at Dannelly Air National Guard base in Montgomery as late as Jan. 6, 1973, according to a document released by the White House Feb. 11. The document is a record of a dental examination of Bush on that date. The payroll records released two days earlier show Bush received pay and credit for service for Jan. 6 and for five other days closely clustered between Jan. 4 and Jan. 10.
On Feb. 13, the White House released hundreds of additional pages from Bush’s military records. Nothing in those files, however, provided any further documentation of Bush’s presence at Donnelly Air National Guard Base in Alabama beyond the single dental examination record.
An additional witness came forward to say that he had seen Bush at the base. John W. “Bill” Calhoun was quoted by the Washington Post and others as saying he saw Bush sign in at the base eight to 10 times for about eight hours each from May to October 1972. However, as previously noted, there is record of Bush being paid for only two days of Guard service during that period, Oct. 28 and 29 1972. A White House spokesman could not offer an explanation for the discrepancy.
"Not Observed" in Houston?
The newly released records show only sporadic service by Bush during the months immediately following the 1972 election. They show pay and credits for six days in January 1973 and two in April.
It was the following month that his two superior officers at Ellington Air Force Base wrote that they could not complete Bush’s annual evaluation covering the 12 months ending April 30, 1973 because "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of this report.” How could Bush be paid and credited for drills and still not be “observed” by his superiors? Both of them are now dead and can't answer that. White House Communications Director Dan Bartlett says Bush was doing "odd jobs" for the Guard at the time in a non-flying capacity and his superiors might not have been aware of that.
Also, the newly released dental record now suggests that Bush was still performing duty in Alabama, not Houston, as late as January. It is not clear where his two days of service in April, 1973 were performed, but if they were in Houston they would be the only two days of service there in the period covered by the report saying he was "not observed."
The records do show a flurry of activity by Bush in May, June and July, 1973, as Bush was applying for an early release from the Guard in order to attend the Harvard Business School. In those three months Bush got credit for 38 days of service, more than he got for all of 1972. His last recorded day was July 30, 1973. He was released from service with an honorable discharge eight months before the end of the six-year term of service for which he had originally signed up.
The Reaction
Release of the payroll and personnel summaries didn't quiet all the President's critics. DNC chairman McAuliffe said, ''The handful of documents released today by the White House creates more questions than answers.'' But Kerry himself said he had no comment. "It's not an issue that I chose to create," he told reporters at Dulles airport in Washington. "It's not my record that's at issue, and I don't have any questions about it."
There were these other developments:
The Boston Globe reported Feb. 12 that Bush’s suspension from flight duty while he was in Alabama “should have prompted an investigation by his commander” in Houston under Air Force regulations in effect at the time. The Globe also said “It is unclear whether Bush's commander, Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian, ordered any inquiry, as required.” Killian is deceased.
The Dallas Morning News reported Feb. 12 an allegation that Bush documents were discarded in 1997. The News said a retired Guard Lieutenant Colonel, Bill Burkett, said that in 1997 he overheard then-Gov. Bush's chief of staff, Joe Allbaugh, tell the chief of the National Guard to get the Bush file and make certain "there's not anything there that will embarrass the governor." The newspaper quoted Burkett as saying that a few days later he saw Mr. Bush's file and documents from it discarded in a trash can, and that he recognized the documents as retirement point summaries and pay forms.
The trash-can allegation is puzzling because the type of documents alleged to be discarded are the same type of documents that the White House produced Feb. 10 after receiving copies from and Air Force Reserve storage facility in Denver, and which the White House now cites as proof of Bush’s service.
The New York Times also quoted Burkett Feb. 12 as saying he overheard Bush aides requesting a review of Bush’s personnel files in 1997, but the Times did not report any allegation from Burkett that documents had been discarded. Both the Times and Dallas Morning News reported denials from various Guard officials and Bush aides that any documents had been destroyed.
On Feb. 13, moreover, the Boston Globe reported that Burkett’s account is contradicted by a key witness, a friend of Burkett who was present at the time and place Burkett claims to have seen documents discarded.
The Globe reported:
But a key witness to some of the events described by Burkett has told the Globe that the central elements of his story are false.
George O. Conn, a former chief warrant officer with the Guard and a friend of Burkett's, is the person whom Burkett says led him to the room where the Bush records were being vetted. But Conn says he never saw anyone combing through the Bush file or discarding records.
"I have no recall of that," Conn said. "I have no recall of that whatsoever. None. Zip. Nada."
"The Secret Service has announced it is doubling its protection for John Kerry. You can understand why — with two positions on every issue, he has twice as many people mad at him." —Jay Leno
posted on May 11, 2004 01:12:06 PM new
Kerry continues to blast this President in every way he can...on all the issues....but when those interviewing him then try to find out what he'd do different if he were president....he gives answers like this:
[yesterday on the campaign trail - reported on AP 5-11]
It was the second consecutive day Kerry sought to court voters on a bread-and-butter domestic issue as the abuse of Iraqi prisoners in U.S. custody drew national attention.
Asked by reporters what he would do about the abuses, Kerry said: "The important thing is for the country now to get its path in Iraq correct. We need to come together and I'm hopeful that we will."
--------------------
boy.....was that answer ever helpful in understanding what he'd do to make the situation better - NOT!!!
posted on May 11, 2004 01:58:49 PM new
Read your posts carefully Bear, it supports everything I have stated. Bush was AWOL. Over 30 days AWOL and you are a deserter. The press was forced to say it in a nicer manner, but in not one of your articles does it state that Bush wasn't AWOL.
Furthermore, while men were fighting and losing their lives in Vietnam, Bush was AWOL. Wouldn't it have been nice to serve in an over staffed NG unit, go AWOL and desert rather than die in a rice paddy in Vietnam? Bush is not only a military deserter, but he and Cheney are both draft dodgers and liars with the blood of 700 brave soldiers and over 22,000 civilians on their hands.
I find it reprehensible that you right wing losers cry un-American and unpatriotic at every turn yet you continue to support a military deserter.
Bush is STRONG on defence as long as it is somebody eles's a$$ that is on the line.
posted on May 11, 2004 02:24:51 PM newYOU DON'T GET A HONORABLE DISCHARGE WITH A AWOL CHARGE ON YOUR RECORD
What don't you understand about that Remond?
"The Secret Service has announced it is doubling its protection for John Kerry. You can understand why — with two positions on every issue, he has twice as many people mad at him." —Jay Leno
posted on May 11, 2004 02:29:15 PM newYOU DON'T GET A HONORABLE DISCHARGE WITH A AWOL CHARGE ON YOUR RECORD
You do if your old man is George H W Bush.
How stupid can you be Bear ? How do you think Bush got into an over staffed NG unit in the first place ? And what officer would end his career by giving George Jr any problem while he "served" his country in the NG ?
The bottom line is that while brave men and women died in Vietnam, Chicken George was safe at home AWOL.
posted on May 11, 2004 02:29:24 PM new
How could Kerry answer what he would do about the abuses if the facts aren't all in yet and Bush doesn't even know what to do.
posted on May 11, 2004 02:31:43 PM new
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I should vote for kerry.
The left thinks he has all the answers for everything curing all our country's ills....when he hardly ever answers a question....when he votes against funding our military, votes against support our intelligence agencies, votes against everything we need to defend ourselves.
But hey....nevermind...he'll do us the honor of raising our taxes to pay for a health care program that will only help a very small minority of those currently uninsured. The regular folks can just pay for their own, unless kerry decides the 'rich' should pay for that too.
Heck....what do we need with a military anyway. Their party reduced funding for the military for 7 our of 8 years. It's just they don't think it's really necessary. There are no 'mean' people out there working to destroy our country....here I've been worried for no reason thinking we needed to stop the growth of the Muslim terrorists. How silly I've been. After all, they're not looking to change our country....no...what WAS I thinking?
I mean, afterall, kerry has all that support coming from 'whoever' all those foreign leaders are - the ones he won't name. With support like that....who needs to worry about the Muslim extremists coming back and giving us another little taste of their 9-11 present.
Then we can teach our children that we're the bad guys....we're always the aggressors...we're the ones oppressing others culture/religion and we were wrong in doing that. We'll just live under the leadership of the binladens of this world and all will be well.
God...what was I thinking? It'll all be solved...every problem we have....if we just get kerry in office.
posted on May 11, 2004 02:36:32 PM newHow could Kerry answer what he would do about the abuses if the facts aren't all in yet and Bush doesn't even know what to do.
That would be funny IF President Bush hadn't already stated what was going to be done.
posted on May 11, 2004 02:45:21 PM newHow stupid can you be Bear ?
Well I guess I could lower myself to your level of stupidity by denying what everyone else INCLUDING KERRYhas accepted as the truth, that President Bush was not AWOL.
Point out the EXACT section of the articles I (and Linda) posted in which the records prove Pres Bush was AWOL.
You can't because it never happened.
If President Bush was AWOL, then Clinton never got a BJ in the White House from Monica, never showed X Rated movies on Air Force One & he and Hillary never looted the White House when Gore lost the election.
"The Secret Service has announced it is doubling its protection for John Kerry. You can understand why — with two positions on every issue, he has twice as many people mad at him." —Jay Leno
posted on May 11, 2004 02:46:03 PM new
I'm sorry, Linda. I was under the impression that they were still investigating the abuse charges and that Bush was still learning some of the facts behind it. I didn't realize it was all wrapped up and he'd made his decision about what to do already. Silly me!
posted on May 11, 2004 02:56:42 PM new
Read your own posts Bear it is all right there. I realize that you have a low reading comprehension level but that is no excuse. He was AWOL for 12 months.
posted on May 11, 2004 02:57:02 PM new
I'll say it again just for your viewing pleasure, Linda. Just because I don't agree with what Bush is doing it doesn't mean that I agree with Kerry on everything either.
Just because I said that Kerry was smart to answer that way it doesn't mean that I support Kerry on every issue.
Got it? I ask you that before you go running off with the wrong ideas in your head again.
posted on May 11, 2004 03:09:55 PM new
Hey kiara ! Don't you know that Linda and Bear and all them Bush supporters are not only on the side of Bush, but on the side of god ?
Bush said god chose him to be the leader of America during this time of crisis.
posted on May 11, 2004 03:37:56 PM newOur American Taliban
and your other choice is what????? "Our Muslim Nation". Since you're always berating religion....just remember theirs is just a tad more 'strick' than American religions are.
But hey....you're free to choose which ever one you want. We'll see if your support of Church and State does better under Muslim rule.
posted on May 11, 2004 03:45:39 PM new
I choose neither as an atheist. In fact I think the christians are just as silly as the muslims. Our right wing religious conservatives are no better than the radical muslims.
The same religious belief system that ran planes into the WTC is the same that blew up the Oklahoma Federal Building. It is all these religious zealots, including the nut case in the White House and the equally retarded Attorney General, that bring about these problems.
posted on May 11, 2004 05:24:41 PM new
McVeigh was a christian miltiaman. He was a member of the Christain Identity movement and requested a priest before he was executed. There was nothing in his record that would aloow that he was an atheist.
But if you like we can exchange McVeigh for the right wing religious nuts that murder doctors and bomb women's clinics. Eric Rudolph was a member of the Christian Identity movement too.
Oh and for 12pole-- Neither McVeigh or Rudolpd were raised by homosexuals.
posted on May 11, 2004 06:15:13 PM newRead your own posts Bear it is all right there. I realize that you have a low reading comprehension level but that is no excuse. He was AWOL for 12 months.
Unlike your's Remond, my reading comprehension is beyond the illiterate level.
I must apologize Remond, I failed to take into consideration your liberal high school dropout level of concentration. I guess I need to point out to you again (and again and again and again) & High light the section you don't understand.
Or is it necessary to have it printed in Braille for you to understand.
If necessary I can have my 4 year old grandson tape record it & send it to you.[/b]
========================
On February 10 Boston Globe reporter Walter V. Robinson -- who first reported four years ago that there was a year-long gap in Bush's record of National Guard service -- reported he had obtained two new documents that partially filled in that gap: "The personnel records. . . . constitute the first evidence that Bush appeared for any duty during the first 11 months of that 12-month period. Bush is recorded as having served the minimum number of days expected of Guard members in that 12 months of service time."
Later that same day the the White House released copies of those documents and others, including payroll records showing Bush had been paid for several drills during the period and was credited with meeting military point requirements for the 12-month period in question.
"The Secret Service has announced it is doubling its protection for John Kerry. You can understand why — with two positions on every issue, he has twice as many people mad at him." —Jay Leno
posted on May 11, 2004 06:31:00 PM new
reamond - You know what I've noticed with your posts lately? You give half truths....you don't give the full story. Leaving those who believe what you say - take you at your word....who accept your statements without question - to believe they are facts....when they are not.
As a baby he was baptised....but all over the internet proof can be found that he was a self-professed atheist....just like yourself.
Yes, when his sentence time came he did ask for a priest.....maybe because he thought he had a chance of being forgiven....a belief from his childhood.
.
