posted on May 23, 2004 02:26:47 PM new
::fenix - IF that were true...why are other large countries paying much more for their gas than we are? Do OUR domestic oil companies influence the price they pay for gas too? ::
Sorry - missed the question and was dealing with other things for a littel while. Other nations oil companies and sources decide their prices Linda. I am discussing fraudlently high prices in the US. Let the other countries deal with their own problem
Linda - you need to stop now and actually research what it is you are debating.
::Imo, IF that were true...they would have voted already to lower prices. They haven't....they're making us wait until next month. ::
Opec does not dictate oil prices. Next months vote is about production rates not prices. Think of OPEC as you do the stock market. Companies do not dictate the price of their own stock, they can effect it but not dictate it. They already halted a proposed cut back just 6 weeks ago to attempt to help bring prices back into line and that did not work, now they are explorinng other options and they are doing it in one month at their scheduled meeting. You can think of that one like our congress. The have a set schedule for votes and when they are and are not in session.
::Yes, and what you're not recognizing is the threat that SA faces now. US troops are no longer in SA and they have limited ability to protect their own oil fields....AND that's what part of the speculation is based on....attempts by other Arabs/terrorists to blow up the SA oil fields. [Like the examples I've given].::
OK - now you are going to have to show me where there is fear of problems with Saudi fields. Every article I have seen, including the ones you posted are in reference to Iraqi fields who is no where near the production levels to e an actual player in the game yet. The incident in Saudi Arabia was gunmen at an office targeting western contractors not the fields and Ir
::So...unless the NTY is mistaken...not me and my lack of knowledge, lack of sympathy to SA....all the other Arab nations will have to agree to do so ...or it won't happen. ::
Yes, the NYT is mistaken. As already shown in the article I posted above, overall production levels are already above the set quotas. The Saudis have already stated that they will not allow the fearfullness of smaller nations, already producing at capacity, of losing part of their market share stop them from protecting the longterm value of their product. They have the capacity, the product and the will to increase and they will do it with or without the vote.
As for the oil issue being a political issue. No, it really isn't. It is a politicized issue but no politician is going to dictate to OPEC or it's nations what their production levels will be (they went thru this same during the Clinton administration). The parties are blowing a whole lot of hot air at each other over an issue that neither can control.
Now - I'm curious about the answer to my question about reconciling the issues
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on May 23, 2004 02:29:05 PM new
fenix - this was taken from the AP today around 3:30PM - I offer it as proof....
Que? Linda - I am talking abut in the past four months.
And I said, "So am I."
Naimi's assurances to Abraham were the most explicit Saudi commitment to produce at this higher level since oil prices reached the psychologically important threshold of $40.
They also represent a dramatic shift in Saudi policy: OPEC members, led by Saudi Arabia, agreed as recently as March to cut production by 1 million barrels a day in anticipation of a lull in seasonal demand.
Demand picked up instead, to OPEC's surprise. U.S. gasoline prices hit new highs as motorists prepared for the peak summer driving season, and OPEC has borne the brunt of demands for more oil.
posted on May 23, 2004 02:48:42 PM newIF that were true...why are other large countries paying much more for their gas than we are? Do OUR domestic oil companies influence the price they pay for gas too? ::
Other nations oil companies and sources decide their prices Linda.
Oh come on now ....that is totally avoiding the subject of how OPEC decisions on how much oil they're going to release plays in the whole picture of prices.
Linda - you need to stop now and actually research what it is you are debating. Please don't start getting condescending with me. I have researched this...you just don't like what I'm saying.
Opec does not dictate oil prices.
They do in the sense that if they decrease the supply of oil or won't produce/release more oil.....prices per barrel go up when there's more demand for the same quanity that IS being released to the world.
::Yes, and what you're not recognizing is the threat that SA faces now. US troops are no longer in SA and they have limited ability to protect their own oil fields....AND that's what part of the speculation is based on....attempts by other Arabs/terrorists to blow up the SA oil fields. [Like the examples I've given].::
OK - now you are going to have to show me where there is fear of problems with Saudi fields.
Maybe you should do what you have suggestion I do....inform yourself via research.
EThe incident in Saudi Arabia was gunmen at an office targeting western contractors not the fields and Ir
Yes, the NYT is mistaken.
They're all mistaken except you? The left and right leaning news media....????
They have the capacity, the product and the will to increase and they will do it with or without the vote.
And what I'm saying is that even if SA increased they're output by 10% it won't be enough to meet demand. The other Arab countries oil will be needed too.....and they are fighting between themselves on whether they're going to up production/release of more oil. And that that factor HAS caused concern in the oil future markets.
As for the oil issue being a political issue. No, it really isn't. It is a politicized issue but no politician is going to dictate to OPEC or it's nations what their production levels will be (they went thru this same during the Clinton administration). The parties are blowing a whole lot of hot air at each other over an issue that neither can control.
Political vs politicized....semantics...it all boils down to the same thing. It's used against one party during an election time for political gain...and that makes it political. Always has been....and is currently.
posted on May 23, 2004 02:57:01 PM new
Linda - crude oil demand always drops in the spring as a result of increased temperatures. Every spring OPEC has dropped production rates and then raised them again as cooler temperature set in in the fall. This was the proposed drop that made such big waves in late Feb/early March that was supposed to be implemented as of April 1 but never was. It was not implememted because of the furror that was caused when the press screamed about cutbacks without, in the vast majority of cases, bothering to mention that this was in fact a yearly event.
U.S. gasoline prices hit new highs as motorists prepared for the peak summer driving season,
Can someone please explain to me how motorists begin preparing for peak summer drving in March and how this would effect gasoline supplies? I mean, I get the tire rotation, system flush, oil change, but unless they are suddenly deciding to fill up the family tanker I don't get this concept.
BTW - I notice that you bolded the comment about increased demand but ignored the the one about the bearing the brunnt of the increases.
NOW - Answer my question please.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on May 23, 2004 03:02:16 PM new
fenix - Here....this is another article from the NYT dated 5-12-04...that should help with your research
Attacks Drive Price of Oil to $40 a Barrel
By NEELA BANERJEE
Published: May 12, 2004
The price of crude oil surpassed $40 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange yesterday. Attacks on oil facilities in Iraq and Saudi Arabia in recent weeks have largely been responsible for driving up the price, industry experts said.
Crude oil for June delivery rose $1.13 a barrel, or 3 percent, to close at $40.06, the highest since the October 1990 market spike in the wake of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, when prices briefly reached $40.60 a barrel.
more coming....
As the global economic growth has picked up speed, voracious demand for oil in the United States and China has kept prices above $30 a barrel for months.
But the prices have jumped 9.9 percent since April 24, when suicide bombers made a failed attack on a critical Iraqi offshore oil terminal. A week later, terrorists killed foreign and Saudi workers inside Saudi Arabia's Yanbu oil hub.
The concern among traders is that such attacks on oil facilities in the Middle East will continue, and eventually disrupt supplies at a time when the world badly needs a lot of oil. "In the region, oil is in the crosshairs," said John Kilduff, senior vice president for energy risk management at Fimat USA, the commodities brokerage arm of Sociιtι Gιnιrale.
"Increasingly, it seems that those fighting the United States and the coalition are acting that way."
If oil prices remain this high, as many experts fear, they could gradually erode the economic recovery. "If $40 a barrel of oil prevails through the end of the year, that should shave approximately half a point in G.D.P. growth between now and this time next year," said Mark Zandi, executive director of Economy.com, a research firm in West Chester, Pa.
"Higher oil prices means higher inflation. It would be very much like a tax increase on all of us, except we'd be cutting a check to foreign producers rather than our own friendly government."
The rise in crude oil prices comes one day after the Saudi Arabian oil minister, Ali al-Naimi, called for the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries to increase its production quota by 1.5 million barrels a day, to 25 million. Since the 11-nation cartel is already overproducing its quota to cash in on high prices, pumping about 25.7 million barrels a day, Mr. al-Naimi's proposal was seen as a gesture intended to calm the market and signal that the Saudis do not want to imperil the global economy, according to Leonidas F. Drollas, chief economist at the Center for Global Energy Studies, a London consulting firm.
But the Saudi statement failed to persuade traders that oil prices could be reined in. They continue to worry about possible attacks on oil facilities.
Over the weekend, insurgents in Iraq damaged an important pipeline that carries oil to the southern port city of Basra. That attack and another oil pipeline shutdown have kept about 400,000 barrels a day from reaching market, Mr. Drollas said.
Though Iraqi officials said the Basra pipeline would be repaired soon, such efforts have often been thwarted this year by persistent saboteurs.
Traders estimated that the possibility of more attacks on oil facilities in the Middle East have added a "risk premium" to the price of oil ranging from $4 to $8 a barrel.
Gasoline prices are also expected to rise to a record national average of $1.94 a gallon this summer, according to a forecast released yesterday by the Energy Information Administration. A month ago, the agency predicted that gasoline prices would average $1.76 a gallon, or 10 percent less, this summer; the rise in crude oil prices accounts for the increase, the agency noted.
Yet high oil and gasoline prices have so far done little to change consumer behavior in the United States, which burns much more oil than the rest of the world.
"In the past, consuming countries would be screaming bloody murder" because of such prices, said Jan Stuart, head of research at Fimat. "Now, prices seem to register in the minds of American officialdom and consumers as an irritant, not necessarily as a source of acute worry."
Americans spend a smaller percentage of their income on energy now than two decades ago, and when inflation is taken into account, gasoline prices remain substantially lower than they were in the early 1980's.
posted on May 23, 2004 03:11:38 PM new
Linda- I prefer entire articles or the link to them. I have already experienced you prechant for selective editing.
As for more coming - You insisted on an answer to your question - please have the respect to reciprocate.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on May 23, 2004 03:39:58 PM new
fenix - If you want the full article to both of the NYT articles I've posted you're going to have to look them up yourself. One is required to log-in to their site....and if I posted the link...it would show my user id name. But I have given the dates and will go find the title's if you wish. I'm not hiding anything from you.
And on your answer....I don't consider your response an answer. You totally avoided the issue by saying what other countries do...is not your concern while you totally ignore the question of *why we're paying much lower gasoline prices than the rest of the world is IF our oil refiniers are supposedly taking us to the cleaners* - *rather* than a big part of the prices we're paying being very much related to what the Arab oil countries are willing to release to meet the stronger current demand....and the fact that they is much concern about future amounts released/available should there be more attacks on their oil reserves. You refuse to acknowledge that they're holding control of the economy of our world by how much oil they are or aren't willing to release.
But there are many more articles out there and doing a search on google for 'concern about saboturs on oil' will bring them up for you. That is IF you spell sabotur correctly.
posted on May 23, 2004 04:06:32 PM new
You are right Linda - you see no one has yet to explain to me how a 70 cent jump in a barrell of oil equates to $1.00 jump in a gallon of gas. Maybe you can explain this theory about the Saudis to the Attorney gerenerals of the numerous states that are investigating oil companies for price gouging. They may be interested.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on May 23, 2004 04:09:25 PM new
BTW- I am going to assume that you really have not found a way to reconcile your belief with the offer of assisitance othherwise you surely would have offered it. Saying that you are not going to bother even answering my question because you didn't like my answer to yours is just a little to childish for me to attribute to you as a reason. I hope I am not wrong.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
....that is totally avoiding the subject of how OPEC decisions on how much oil they're going to release plays in the whole picture of prices.