posted on June 29, 2004 03:54:46 PM new
Yesterday, I was cruising a Christian Thrift Store here in Portland, and heard a commercial that was quite infuriating on their radio station.
An organization called, "International Ministries, Campus Crusade for Christ" is doing a fund raiser to buy Bibles printed in Arabic to be distributed throughout Iraq and "neighboring countries".
Now, I can understand why the Republicans say this isn't just about oil. This is also a Christian crusade to conquer yet another part of the world with Christianity. Forget that the vast majority of Iraqi's are Muslims, as is the rest of the surrounding countries. It is sick to know that George W. Bush is behind this crusade. How do I know this??? Well, not so many months ago, Bush called pushed for a significant increase in Federal funding for Faith Based Organizations and Initiatives. An ironic action by a President who spent a large portion of his life drinking, partying, and snorting coke up his nose only to find God, send our innocent sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, husbands and wives over to fight a war against an enemy that we helped to create. To add fuel to the fire, as time has passed we see the money making machines getting unnegotiated Government contracts, overcharging our own pocketbooks, inflating costs, etc. Who is making the money??? George Bush and friends. Now we can throw the Christian Crackpots on the fire to further the "americanizaton" of Iraq. When will it end?
If you would like to check out the website for this Bible beater organization, you can see it first hand at www.biblesforiraq.org.
posted on June 29, 2004 04:02:08 PM new
This is just absolutely the worst thing that could possibly happen. Oh My God!!! Outrageous that the newly freed people of Iraq should be forced to have this 'shoved' down their throats.
I just can't think of ANYTHING worse that could happen - and of course President Bush should be blamed for *any* action *anybody* ever takes that *anyone* doesn't think is appropriate. After all....THIS isn't a free country that allows this sort of thing.
posted on June 29, 2004 04:14:36 PM new
Why oh why did I know Linda K would jump in first??? Her responses seem to scream "Right Winged Christian fanatic". I couldn't help but think about her postings as I typed the subject line. Funny how that works.
Oh, yeah, I forgot. Iraq has all of the liberties as Americans do. That's right. Let's go on over there with our crucifixes, bibles, rosaries, etc. and tell Iraqi's that we'll give them blankets, warm food, medical attention, clean water, and so on... Oh, but lets not forget to hand them a Christian Bible and ask them to read it with us and forget the centuries and centuries of Muslim culture. Give me a break! It never ceases to amaze me that Christians think this is ok. Ironically, it is the same Christians who would never think to read the Koran or step foot in a mosque. Those are religious fanatics... Amazing.
posted on June 29, 2004 04:19:37 PM new
And who said that Christianity is the true religion? Anyone? Has anyone sat down with Christ personally lately? Sounds like Linda has. I cannot stand Bible thumpers. They are exactly the reason I stay away from organized religion. Religion is exactly what caused unrest in the Middle East to begin with and this will add fuel to that fire. Are we going to civilize them like we did the American Indian? Tell them their religion is wrong? Tell them their whole lives are being lived wrong and only our way is the right way to live? Those savages. We'll take them out of their native dress and put them in western clothes. Hell, we may even set up reservations for those who aren't so ready to comply. Why not? It's our history. It's the way we do things around here - force feed our way of life.
It's wrong. Just plain wrong.
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Jun 29, 2004 04:20 PM ]
posted on June 29, 2004 04:25:53 PM new
I don't understand what the problem is here. I'm agreeing that the gostapo ought to shut down any religious *business* that has the NERVE to try to sell a Bible anywhere in this world. It should be forbidden....against the law. All Bibles should be burned. No one should have the right to 'choose' if they want to buy one or not....let alone be given the chance to read it - again if they wish to.
horrors of horrors.....that's the last thing we want to see.
posted on June 29, 2004 04:31:57 PM newAnd who said that Christianity is the true religion? Anyone? Has anyone sat down with Christ personally lately? Sounds like Linda has.
Once again cheryl, you and your assumptions would be wrong. Because I've stated several times I have no personal knowledge which, if any, religion is the 'right' one. But that doesn't ever stop you from making erroreous assumptions does it? Nope...it doesn't.
Bible thumpers don't take "no" for an answer. These religious groups shove things down your throat. They don't stand on the corner with a little Bible stand. Offering them in a store would be fine. Sending fanatic religious organizations into a country whose only religion is Musleum is not fine. Touting hell and damnation to those who don't comply is not fine. Ever have the Jehovah's Witnesses come to your door? Or the Mormons? It's bad enough I have to endure it from time to time. I don't wish it on the people of Iraq. The Crusades were not a happy time. We don't need a repeat.
And just what do you suppose will happen to these religious Christians in Iraq? I'm guessing it will be pretty gruesome.
Because I've stated several times I have no personal knowledge which, if any, religion is the 'right' one.
Then why the support for the religious antics of the right? You've said you are a Christian. Hey, that's fine. I am as well. However, I am open to all religions and would never ever assume mine is the true and right one. Bush on the other hand, comes off sounding exactly like that. See what happens? You become who you support in the eyes of all around you even if it's not who you are.
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Jun 29, 2004 04:37 PM ]
posted on June 29, 2004 04:38:01 PM new
cheryl - What you and I personally like or don't like....is NOT the issue.
The issue is a business has the constitution right to sell religious material if they wish to.
You and others like you are way too quick to condem and act so willing to take away our Constitutional right to practice our religions....ALL of them. I never see/hear you lefties condeming other religious....saying everything you find so offensive about them. No...just the Christian ones.
I will always defend the constitutional right of any American to practice their religion....whether I personally agree with their belief system or not.
They have the right to go there, sure. But, what of their safety once they get there? They hate Christians over there. Always have, always will. Like I said, the consequences could be grim. And, who will take responsibility for their safety?
I have nothing against Christians. As I said, I am one (a Methodist). Everything in moderation. However with "International Ministries, Campus Crusade for Christ" it is not moderation. It is throat cramming, bible thumping, jumping up and down religion. Snake oil. I don't worship Christ. I worship God. Christ is not the Lord to me. God is the Lord. Christ was a man, not a God. That is my belief and I'd slam the door on these people if they ever dared knock. You may not agree. Heck, no one may agree. In Islam, Allah is God - not Christ. It is what they believe and they've a right to that belief. Sending this organization in is not going to change thousands of years of belief. It's wrong to even attempt it.
will always defend the constitutional right of any American to practice their religion....whether I personally agree with their belief system or not.
That great. However, Iraqi's are not Americans. Their culture is as different from ours as night is from day. We are wrong to even think about changing it.
posted on June 29, 2004 04:46:00 PM new
Don't play innocent Linda K. We can read your passive aggressive sarcasm a million miles away. This whole idea of Christians passing out bibles is disresectful. Can't they simply just live and let live? I am sick of the missionary vision of let's educate them, clothe them, feed them, solve their problems for them, all in the name of Christ. Ironically, none of those things are needed to be self sufficient. Geez, this really screams of that episode of South Park where the 700 Club was raising money to buy an Interstellar Cruiser (spaceship) to be able to fly to another planet in order to spread the word of Christianity. They kept doing newsbreaks asking for more contributions because they needed upgrades to the cruiser such as missles, anti-whatever tractor beams, etc. What a joke! The social commentaries within South Park are so dead on accurate.
It also reminds me of Jahova's witnesses coming to our door on Saturday mornings. LEAVE US ALONE! No one needs to be saved, or to become Christian in order to live their lives in peace.
I was born and raised Catholic, and I've seen the light. Religion, particularly Christianity has been the backbone of so much murder it sickens me to think this is going on right now. You can tell me how "unchristian" I am or call me an athiest, but the reality is that we have "born again Christians" running this country into the ground through war, lies, deception, and have people like Rush Limbaugh who think raping and sodomizing Iraqi prisoners by shoving light sticks up their #ss is "good old american pornography". Wow, how Christian of him. We have soldiers forcing Iraqi's to eat food that is against their religion. How Christian to pass on small pox in blankets to Native Americans, or to force Africans into slavery. I recall the Spanish Inquisition was about Christian Crusades.
posted on June 29, 2004 05:01:57 PM new
Well, who says that Islam is the true religion? Has anyone sat down personally with Mohammad lately and had a chat?
There has been Christian missionarys for a long time going to different countries and yes, trying to convert. NO ONE has to (convert that is.)
This is what the NT says, PARAPHRASED of course: To go out and spread the Good News
So a lot of Churches do just that, they go and 'share' or 'witness'. They went into the USSR when it was the USSR and 'witnessed' and snuck Bibles into the country, during the Cold War, I know, one of my best friends from High School went.
Personally? I don't care for the JW's or the Mormons coming to my door, but that is their purpose. Shut the door on them. Put up a sign of no soliciting or whatever, don't answer, tell them to f*** off, whatever. Do like you would a telemarketer.
Its just what they have been taught to do, and what they believe
posted on June 29, 2004 05:04:22 PM new
You sure are on the same page. blaming ...blaming...blaming.
This organization has every right to do whatever they can raise funds to do. And unless you can prove otherwise I don't believe this President controls what every religious person/business does in this country.
Clinton carried a Bible everyday....kerry goes to his Catholic church at least once a week. I don't believe for one minute EITHER one of the would agree with what the two of you support. They're not extremists in that direction....and they'd BOTH support this businesses right to do business.
posted on June 29, 2004 05:10:28 PM new
Mormons really get to me. My brother is one and it has really done damage to the family If anyone here is a Mormon perhaps you can explain to me why:
1. You choose to spend the Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter holidays with visiting missionaries over your aged mother and the rest of your family? Well, the rest of the family I might be able to understand, but your aging mother?
2. Why, should she have stayed Mormon, would my niece's family be banned from her wedding because we aren't willing to convert? Is your church so exclusive that God keeps the rest of us out?
Just some questions.
Nearthesea
The USSR wasn't Musleum. Once again, it is not safe for Christians over there and probably never will be especially for those trying to "convert". And who said Islam was the true religion? I said that no where in my posts? How do any of us even know there really is a God especially since it would appear that their would have had to be quite a bit of incest going on if we started out with just Adam and Eve? In fact, it would still be going on.
Edited to add: Linda, the issue is our ever dogged attempt to westernize everyone everywhere. And, once again, the even bigger issue is the safety of those going over there to do the missionary work. Who is going to take responsibility for their safety? God? Christ? They do these thinking God or Christ is going to watch out for them and then they are suprised when that doesn't happen.
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Jun 29, 2004 05:14 PM ]
posted on June 29, 2004 05:16:14 PM new
Oh, you are so wrong to think that there is no difference between Bush, Clinton and Kerry. Sure, every President was a Christian in one form or another, however, Bush made it clear he was going to support "Faith Based" organizations by increasing grant funding for those organizations. Since when did religion and the government have anything to do with each other? Seperation of Church and State limits the involvment of the two, or at least it used to. George Bush has trampled on the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and our Civil Rights for 3.5 years too long. This is obviously the next step towards global domination. We have a Nazi controlling the United States and killing people all over the world, we have religious fanatics fighting, and it gets justified by a bunch of lemmings who think it is a-ok. It would be a great day when religion is outlawed, and we can just love and respect one another without having to worry if one person believes in God, Allah, Buddah, or a Chipmunk statue.
[ edited by rustygumbo on Jun 29, 2004 05:17 PM ]
posted on June 29, 2004 05:38:28 PM new
I might also add that there isn't nothing necessarily wrong with Christians as individuals. Some Christians are better than others, and know the difference between right and wrong. What is wrong is to do your "charity" work and expect others to accept the religion you are pushing upon them. Muslims are rightfully very proud people as are Christians. Their religion has guided them through plenty, and we shouldn't go bother what is already a serious problem. If someone is interested in Christianity, they'll come knocking. Many people do it every day for one reason or another. The problem with most religions is that it is all done as a means to feed the monkey. It is a profit making venture whether you want to believe it or not. I used to work in non-profit. I know that many organizations are run by Directors who benefit financially for what they do. Too many Executives in the Non-profit sector are making plenty of profit on it. Religious organizations are no different. They are all there waiting for you with open hands as long as you have open pocketbooks. It helps you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to give your 10% to a religion. God never needed any religion or weekly contribution to make his point, only his followers needed the cash flow.
posted on June 29, 2004 05:38:52 PM new I don't understand what the problem is here.
Let's see. We invade their country. We tell them they're going tobe a democracy whether they like it or not. And now a group is going to descend on them from out country with the aim of converting them from the religion they have practiced for generations & telling them that their religion is a lie & bad...
And people wonder why the US is getting an increasingly bad name abroad. The arrogance of our government and a large number of our people is simply incredible...
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on June 29, 2004 05:40:34 PM new
No, the former USSR was not Muslim, but it was dangerous at one time to go over there and 'preach'
I don't know anyone (any longer) that is Mormon, I do not agree with the religion. There are far more things they do, that I consider 'strange'. They are an 'exclusive' religion, one of few.
rustygumbo
It would be a great day when religion is outlawed, and we can just love and respect one another...
In some places they call that day Armegeddon
I got to get off the computer its too damn hot (outside)
posted on June 29, 2004 05:42:58 PM new
rusty - You appear to me to be totally unaware of the faith-based practices of the clinton administration. You might just want to do some reading on that subject. He even got legislation passed....which I have posted here many times.
I always love it when the only time religion is used against Bush....they left makes it sound like their party doesn't support religion in any way.
Might want to read a little about President Carter too.
-------------
Cheryl - I'm not going to address all your continuing questions because we've been down this road together before and there would be no point. It doesn't matter how safe they'd be or any of the other questions your raise. What matters is that they DO have a Constititional guaranteed right to do so.
----------
But I do question why all these anti-Christian threads but none about all the Mosques that are being build in America. Nothing about how they're trying to 'grow' their religious believes...either in the Mosques nor in our prisons. Strange....it appears to me it's only the Christians that continue to be singled out. No...wait....the Jews are too, but not to the same degree in the US that the Christians are.
posted on June 29, 2004 05:50:24 PM new
So what now bunni? You surely aren't saying this group doesn't have a constitutionally guaranteed right to do this are you?
An organization called, "International Ministries, Campus Crusade for Christ" is doing a fund raiser to buy Bibles printed in Arabic to be distributed throughout Iraq and "neighboring countries".
posted on June 29, 2004 05:50:40 PM new
I have yet to have Moslems appear on my doorstep proselytizing their religion. And not taking "no" for an answer... I have yet to have a Moslem follow me across campus or down the street yelling "don't you believe in Allah? You are going to Hell!" I have yet to have Moslems force their prayers upon me at a public function or sports game. Haven't had Jews do those things, either, for that matter.
I have no problem with Mosques being built, just as I have no problem with churches being built. Same with synagogues.
Why do Christians get singled out, you ask? Because they go out of their way to annoy other people. They just can't seem to stand the idea of "live and let live" and try to force their beliefs onto others.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on June 29, 2004 05:51:42 PM new
Christians: "Praise God! Here take this free Bible, and I won't take no for an answer!"
Muslims: "Jihad! Kill the infidel!" //--CHOP--//
Yeah, right.I've said it before & I guess I have to say it again. This war has nothing to do with oil. It *IS* and ALWAYS WAS a religious war. The radical Islamists want every one of us Americans DEAD.
The Christians want to convert them away from Islam. Unless you would prefer to kill every single Islamic person out there, then I say, more power to 'em!
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
posted on June 29, 2004 05:55:17 PM new So what now bunni? You surely aren't saying this group doesn't have a constitutionally guaranteed right to do this are you?
Sure they have that right, Linda. They can save up for as many Bibles as they want. The thing is, do they have the right to push them onto people in a Muslim country...no, I don't think so. They could make themselves quietly available and whoever was interested could approach them, but they shouldn't force themselves on the populace.
You're talking about "constitutional rights." Those rights are applicible to OUR country. Not others. An American in Iraq does not have the same "constituional" rights as they do here--in Iraq, Iraqi law holds, not ours. Just as our laws don't apply in England, Germany, France, Japan, etc. etc. etc.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on June 29, 2004 05:56:47 PM new
cheryl - I haven't a clue why you would say that. We're talking about the 'rights' of a US group to practice their religion, their US right. Until such time Iraq says, under their laws, it's not allowed....there's no LAW stopping them. Are you aware of such an Iraqi law?
I said it because their constitutional rights don't exist in other countries. How could they? Once they leave this country, they're on their own. They have the constitutional right to leave this country, but they don't have those rights in other countries - freedom of religion comes to mind.
posted on June 29, 2004 06:03:14 PM new
Linda, there might beno Iraqi law, but there is a Moslem law: it is against Islam to convert to another religion.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
