Linda_K
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posted on June 29, 2004 06:05:42 PM new
bunni - So, I'm taking it you're agreeing they do have a right to do this then???? Since you're setting limitations on where they can do this, I'd ask for proof of any limitations that has been put on their 'practicing' their religion in this manner.
They've done it in other countries for decades....I've NEVER read where they can't do it. Because they can.
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here rustygumbo is only the beginning of what you will find on clinton gore and faith based programs:
In 1996, President Bill Clinton signed a welfare reform bill that included a "charitable choice" provision whereby the nation's quarter of a million or more religious congregations can receive public funds to conduct programs such as counseling, job training and day care.
The first state to take advantage of this opportunity was Texas where, in September of 1997, Gov. George W. Bush signed four bills permitting state agencies to fund programs such as drug treatment and prison rehabilitation conducted by faith-based groups.
In addition to Presidents Clinton and Bush, support for this approach has come from former Vice-President Al Gore and Sen. Joe Leiberman, Democratic candidates for President and Vice-President in 2000. Similar proposals are currently before Congress -- now generally referred to as "faith-based initiatives."
Re-elect President Bush!!
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cblev65252
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posted on June 29, 2004 06:06:19 PM new
rusty
If only that would be the only consequence. I'm afraid it will not be. People are free to practice their religions in this country by a constitutional guarantee. That guarantee doesn't hold water in Iraq or anywhere else in the world. It is unique to us. Once we leave this country for parts unknown, the constitution doesn't follow us. In fact, how many US citizens are sitting in Mexican jails right now who would otherwise not be sitting there if those rights went with them?
There's nothing wrong with making Bibles available to those who wish to read them. There is something wrong with doing it forcibly and that's what these groups do. Don't go into a hostile country and shout that their religion is wrong and they'll be damned for practicing it. Isn't it enough we have the ongoing religion-based fight between the Israelis and the Palestinians? Do we have to add another one?
Edited to add: To answer your question, rusty, that is between you and what you believe. Who am I to judge?
Linda
While your comment is interesting, it has nothing to do with what we push on other countries. It has to do with this country. The whole thread is based on religious organizations shoving religion down the throats of people in other countries. Bush's or Clinton's faith based initiative doesn't apply to Iraq.
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Jun 29, 2004 06:12 PM ]
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replaymedia
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posted on June 29, 2004 06:13:55 PM new
Oh yeah, I just remembered something from this past weekend.
I was staying in a motel, and noticed a middle-eastern-looking guy behind the counter. Then I noticed two middle-eastern-looking people cleaning rooms. Later on I noticed these same two outside, on their prayer rugs doing the Mecca-prayer thingie. OK, this is America they have the right to do that.
Something got me wondering, so I checked my room, and BAM! There was no Bible in the nightstand. I've never really bothered to read one of those those things, but it was really weird to know it wasn't there. I'm not sure what to think, but it was really freaky. I don't know if I'll be returning to that motel again.
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
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cblev65252
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posted on June 29, 2004 06:15:39 PM new
replaymedia
I've been in plenty of US hotels where there is no Bible. They are stolen on a regular basis. Some hotels get tired of replacing them, so I've been told.
Cheryl
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Linda_K
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posted on June 29, 2004 06:24:27 PM new
cheryl - You and the others can complain as much as you wish about this practice and everything you find wrong with people of faith - especially your main focal point - The Christians.
MY point in this was that this group has a right to collect these funds and use them in any way they wish....anywhere... in any country. IF they are stopped by another country, arrested in another country, that is a whole different ball game [other subject] than the fact that those here in the US, who are just so upset about what Christians here in this country - and who would like to see it stopped, are doing.....translating and selling Bibles to other countries.
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There is something wrong with doing it forcibly and that's what these groups do.
I'm not talking 'judgement' calls on what some find acceptable and some don't....I'm speaking they have the constitutional RIGHT to do so....no matter the anti-religion platform supporters feelings about what they should be allowed to do or not.
They ARE allowed to do so.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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cblev65252
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posted on June 29, 2004 06:34:08 PM new
Linda
I'm not arguing about their "right to do so", I agree that they have the right to spend their money on whatever pleases them. I question their "right to do so" in another country. I don't care what they do with the funds they raise. Buy Bibles, by bubblegum, whatever. The issue is what they do when they leave the country. Is it right for them to do it morally once they have left a country that for all intensive purposes is largely Christian and have entered a country that is soley Islamic? I don't think anyone here has questioned their right as US citizens to raise funds to buy bibles. The questions we raise do not make us anti-Christian.
Cheryl
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Helenjw
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posted on June 29, 2004 06:34:55 PM new
How about common decency. Such Christians seem to believe that there is an inherent inferiority in the Mid-East and this condescending attitude reminds me of racism... as if the shade of their skin makes them feeble and in need of American help. What right do we have to try to change the culture, the government and religion of another country?
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cblev65252
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posted on June 29, 2004 06:46:00 PM new
Thank you, Helen, for jumping in. I was getting tired of trying to explain it. . over and over and over again and it not getting through. Now I guess I'm not only anti-American, I'm anti-Christian. LOL!
Cheryl
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Helenjw
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posted on June 29, 2004 06:50:42 PM new
You are doing a great job, Cheryl...I'm just agreeing.
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NearTheSea
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posted on June 29, 2004 06:53:04 PM new
The hotels and motels do not replace or provide those Bibles, the Gideons have and still do.
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I'm NearTheSea, and I approve this post
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cblev65252
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posted on June 29, 2004 06:58:09 PM new
"Gideons". I forgot about that.
Thanks for the compliment, Helen. I'm trying, but sometimes I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. In fact, I just took two aspirins to rid myself of a blazing headache.
Cheryl
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Helenjw
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posted on June 29, 2004 07:01:06 PM new
Sometimes I have to take four. 
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Linda_K
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posted on June 29, 2004 07:05:30 PM new
The feeling is mutual I guarantee you both. Take the whole bottle...it won't change the minds of American's who support the Constitution which guarantees people to practice their religious beliefs.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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parklane64
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posted on June 29, 2004 07:38:44 PM new
Such self-righteous liberal frothing at the mouth. My my.........
You know...the best way to defeat a liberal is to let them speak.
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cblev65252
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posted on June 29, 2004 07:54:12 PM new
Okay, Linda. However, I will say it one more time: MISSIONARIES WILL HAVE NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS IN IRAQ - they don't apply. They can do what they want here, but cannot do the same there. This thread was NOT about their consitutional rights here in the USA. It was about what is morally right for them to do in Iraq. Not in the US - but in Iraq. IRAQ. Now, I'm going to take that bottle of aspirin.
I'm out before any more of my hair turns grey. LOL!
Cheryl
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bigpeepa
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posted on June 29, 2004 07:56:12 PM new
Linda_K, In the U,S. Politicians should keep religion out of government. Bush uses religion and promises of Federal money to get votes. Give Bush 4 more years in office and the U.S. will start looking like Taliban country. Women will lose many rights, the Bush government will tell us what we can read, write, watch, or listen to. The government will tell you can't buy medicine from a cheaper source like Canada. People will be imprisoned with out being able to have a lawyer or talk to anyone on the outside world. These are all things that Bush is doing now or is pushing for with help from agencies like the Justice Department,FCC and FDA.
OUTSOURCE THE BUSH GOVERNMENT NOW BEFORE THEY OUTSOURCE YOUR RIGHTS
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replaymedia
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posted on June 29, 2004 08:09:34 PM new
"What right do we have to try to change the culture, the government and religion of another country?"
Why shouldn't we? They're ignorant, racist murderers who are mentally fixated on living in the 16th century. Read the freakin' newspapers - those people are their own worst enemy!
This isn't Star Trek, we don't have to bend over to protect other peoples way of life. Especially when they're monsters.
If we leave them alone, soon enough they'll spread out to cover the world. That is their stated intention after all.
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
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Helenjw
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posted on June 29, 2004 08:28:34 PM new
Replay
You are confusing the citizens of Iraq with terrorists.
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fenix03
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posted on June 29, 2004 08:42:15 PM new
::The issue is a business has the constitution right to sell religious material if they wish to. ::
OK - i admit that I am confused because I could have sworn that the issue was a little good old fashioned outrage over Christian groups who think that Muslims have never seen a bible and that they have some kind of right to go into foreign nations and convert people. It's ridiculous. Islam is a religion that has existed centuries and is the base religion of the region and to think that these people need to have bibles shipped to them from god fearing Americans is an insult and shws no reapect for the people of this region. They have their own regional Christians and Catholics, leave the conversion efforts to those that know something about the region.
I think the question is not about what they have the legal right to do but rather what is justmorally right to do.
::But I do question why all these anti-Christian threads but none about all the Mosques that are being build in America. Nothing about how they're trying to 'grow' their religious believes...either in the Mosques nor in our prisons. Strange....it appears to me it's only the Christians that continue to be singled out. No...wait....the Jews are too, but not to the same degree in the US that the Christians are. ::
Linda - are they out trying to recruit Christians to Islam or simply providing a place of worship for their followers. How does the building of a mosque in a community with muslims relate to sedning Christians to the middle east to try to convert the population?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Jun 29, 2004 08:56 PM ]
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Linda_K
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posted on June 29, 2004 09:40:02 PM new
Working to be more clear.
We as American's can go to whatever part of the world we wish to that let us in. Like missionaries have done for centuries. Do we have a disagreement about that?
Two - As American's we have a constitutional right to practice our religion....like owning a business that gets Bible's translated so the Muslims can read/understand them.....I'd bet the Koran has been tranlated so English speaking people can read it.
Do we have a disagreement on this?
Three - No one here has a right to tell anyone where they can or can't go to practice their religion. Just as you can't tell [say] a JW he *can't* come to your door. Should he come to your door [also including a different country] and he is not wanted there....all have the right to refuse to hear what is being spoken or for entry to be denied.
I'm a little hesitant to ask if we agree here because I don't believe we do.
I believe just like missionary's have done for centuries - they do have a right to go anywhere they wish - and whether they get in or are denied entry is in the hands of the country they wish to gain entry into.
There are many Christian groups in many countries around the world. Those countries obviously let them 'in'.
*All* religions try to convert people to their religion. Many American's have converted to Islam/believe in the Koran. Some religions have different approaches....like the Muslims have mainly focused on converting our prison population. Maybe that's why some here haven't had them at their door. 
But to blame this President for the actions this group has taken is absurd. To not face up to the facts that clinton/gore also thought/think faith based programs have value and that they supported them.....is being in denial, imo.
Re-elect President Bush!!
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profe51
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posted on June 29, 2004 10:01:36 PM new
I think the missionaries should go to Iraq. In fact, I think ALL of them should go there, first thing in the morning.
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When a dog howls at the moon, we call it religion. When he barks at strangers, we call it patriotism. - Edward Abbey
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davebraun
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posted on June 29, 2004 10:14:06 PM new
I agree Prof. In fact I'm putting a PayPal link on my website to raise money for their transportation and starting thre fund with a modest $50.- donation.
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cblev65252
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posted on June 30, 2004 04:02:48 AM new
Linda
Who blamed Bush? This isn't even a discussion about him.
Cheryl
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austbounty
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posted on June 30, 2004 04:37:33 AM new
replaymedia
you seem to need a chill pill too.
salaam alaikum my bruuthers 
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replaymedia
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posted on June 30, 2004 06:46:22 AM new
"You are confusing the citizens of Iraq with terrorists."
I don't think I even mentioned Iraq. I was referring to Muslims, and I ment ALL of them. The entire Middle East.
Read your history. These guys were major conquerors throughout history. If it hadn't been for the Crusades driving these guys back, you'd be wearing a Birkha right now.
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
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Helenjw
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posted on June 30, 2004 07:21:24 AM new
Cheryl said, "Who blamed Bush? This isn't even a discussion about him."
Pay attention, dammit. It's all about Clinton. HE carried a Bible EVERY DAY!!! Now when you connect that information from lindak with this topic, let me know.
Hahahah, Cheryl, Are you running out of asprin bottles. I buy them by the case.
Helen
[ edited by Helenjw on Jun 30, 2004 07:24 AM ]
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cblev65252
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posted on June 30, 2004 08:08:16 AM new
Believe it or not, Helen, I do have a large box of aspirin bottles! Ha, ha, ha. They were given to me by, of all places, a catholic church who wasn't allowed to keep such things around. Ironic, isn't it?
Cheryl
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replaymedia
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posted on June 30, 2004 08:16:17 AM new
Aspirin ... "a catholic church who wasn't allowed to keep such things around."
What's the logic behind that?
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We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
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neroter12
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posted on June 30, 2004 08:22:48 AM new
wow henen is actually laughing and having a good time here????? I'll be derned!
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Helenjw
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posted on June 30, 2004 08:27:36 AM new
neroter...I've been having a lot of fun here for a couple of years before you registered.
Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. I can deal with an occassional headache.
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