posted on July 27, 2004 11:38:13 AM newWhy are the Republicans afraid of Democratic women? First, it was Mrs. Clinton, and now it is Mrs. Kerry. Democrats haven't picked on Mrs. Bush or Mrs. Cheney. Is it because these Democratic ladies are too intelligent, too wealthy and too outspoken?
LOL @ being afraid. NOT afraid.....*repulsed* by their political leanings....WAY TOO FAR LEFT...both h.clinton and h.kerry. Nothing to do with their looks....at least for me personally.
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neroter - I agree with your 'take' on the appearance issue in this thread. A woman can be both strong, intelligent and care about looking feminine.
Then there's also the double standard when some 'whine' about looks shouldn't matter....yet get all mushy when discussing 'pretty boy' edwards great looks. Like it doesn't make a difference to some women [maybe men] voters whether a man is attractive or not.
Of course looks matter....always have always will....whether it's PC or not. It's natures design to attract the opposite sex to one another.
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"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
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posted on July 27, 2004 11:54:52 AM new
I remember when Hillary wore dresses and she was laughed at (in the media) because she has thick ankles. Now she's got her hair streaked, wears contacts and wears pants and she's still attacked.
If you really want to attack someone, go for Ann Coulter. Her hands are the size of a gorilla's and she has a adam's apple. Hmmmm....
posted on July 27, 2004 11:56:43 AM new
It certainly is sexism! And it's much easier to demonize women than men. Even some women--who are insecure themselves--will participate in some demonization. It started, I think, with Eleanor Roosevelt, whose buck teeth were laughed at even by my own father. Jane Fonda is still being demonized--it's just simpler and faster to get a laugh when mentioning her name--than it is to think through the issues and vote intelligently.
Mamie Eisenhower and Pat Nixon weren't fashion plates or beautiful. They were left alone--but wouldn't be an asset to their husbands in today's political climates.
Most women care how they look; many women aren't gorgeous or perfect but they're not willing to get plastic surgery to have that perfection. We women all do our best to look decent so that we don't frighten small children.
The Republican attitude toward women is very much like the Utah attitude (you all know what church I'm talking about here)--Utah women in that group must look perfect, including perfect hairdos that don't move when touched. Maybe there's a reason prescription drug use in Utah is the highest among women in the nation.
Edited to add: Believe it or not, fellas, women do not exist just to brighten YOUR lives. We are not Arm Candy. We are people.
___________________________________
"Our dilemma is that we hate change and love it at the same time; what we really want is for things to remain the same, but better."
- Sidney J Harris
[ edited by Roadsmith on Jul 27, 2004 11:58 AM ]
posted on July 27, 2004 12:02:01 PM new Looks always have mattered and always will.
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KD - You forgot?? h.clinton's liposuction. Women who alter their bodies obviously think/feel it DOES make a difference or they wouldn't go through the expense and pain to look better than they do....naturally.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
posted on July 27, 2004 12:04:18 PM new
Oh and just look at kerry....getting those botox injections to help remove the LINES from his forehead. Think he did that and pays a fortune for his hair cuts because he holds the position that looks don't matter?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
posted on July 27, 2004 12:14:06 PM new
Maybe "looks" are getting mixed up with good grooming. You don't have to be pretty to look good, imo.
Speaking of lipo Linda, I saw another one of those make-over shows last night and they made it sound like if you DON'T have plastic surgery, you mustn't like yourself too much. Can you imagine?
posted on July 27, 2004 12:18:26 PM new
Gee, it must be a real jolt when your political correctness gets #*!@ slapped by reality. A pretty face opens doors, deal with it.
posted on July 27, 2004 12:28:49 PM new
First of all, I was not attacking Hillary. I think she is an attractive woman in her own right and works with what she has. If the media made fun of her, kraft, they can find anything to make fun of anybody for. It goes with the territory. And she of all people knows it.
2nd - crow on a farm, I dont give a ratz azz if you worked with horses or trained horses. I rode horses, too. Dress is appropriate where you are. You cant get that, though - bringing up horses. Okay, so do these horse women friends of yours EVER dress feminine? When their not riding horses? Maybe put on a little makeup when they go to the barn dance or the local hole?? Sheesh! Hillary Clinton is not a cowgirl here! She is a senator from NY. You know the garment capital of the US? 5th avenue? 7th Avenue? Park Avenue? Any of that sound familiar to you? A Senator from New York, remember, not a horse girl from Minnesota. What so wrong with wanting her to represent the best of the state? Oh but I guess, accroding to you, she dress down, because that would make her a "SMART" Woman in your eyes. Yeah, right. You dont even know what you are talking about.
And frankly why Ellen wears pants suits is her own perogative....but she is the most visible woman to do that. And yes it reminds me of her to see another visable woman do it in plainness. Too bad, if you dont like the correlation. It might work for Ellen, she is not trying to be feminne. I dont like the look on Hillary...that is my opinion, and I am entitled to it. For you to get all enraged and deranged about it, is your problem. Why it strikes a nerve in you, only you know. And its on you. Its not on me. ::shrug::
posted on July 27, 2004 12:33:06 PM new
And Kraft you got nerve trying to defend this. A while back Bush was on TV and you were the 1st one posting on here about what? Not about the issues.
About his hair.
I suppose you meant to be funny... but I remember thinking the President of this country just spoke to us about some pretty important issues...and all you could think of was he needed a haircut.
posted on July 27, 2004 12:35:53 PM new
KD - Maybe "looks" are getting mixed up with good grooming.
Nope...good grooming can't make one attractive [beautiful/handsome]....having all the 'right' features does though.
I've seen many a man that I judge to be VERY attactive who is unshaven and has hair a-la-natural...no expensive haircut.
And I've never heard of botox shots nor liposuction to remove wrinkles and fat being called 'grooming'.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"One thing is for sure: the extremists have faith in our weakness. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us." --Tony Blair
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"The War on Terror will not be won until America is united. And as long as Democrats target the Bush administration -- not the terrorists -- as the enemy, we are in trouble." --Oliver North
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
posted on July 27, 2004 12:47:17 PM new
Nero, I wasn't talking about you attacking Hillary - more the Republicans (here, on tv, etc.). And you're right - I did make a comment about Bush's hair - it looked like it was done with an egg-beater. It was just weird to see a President look that way.
posted on July 27, 2004 01:31:20 PM newI always think Ellen weans pant suits because she is gay? Maybe thats stupid, but thats how I feel.
You know, some women just don't like to wear dresses. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with it. I grew up in a time where women had to wear dresses almost all the time. I HATED IT. Not just because you had to be extra careful how sat or moved (this was way before girls wore shorts under their dresses)--there was also the fact that you also had to wear a slip if you were "decent", & in Bakersfield on a 110 degree day you practically boiled. But on the other hand, during the winter you froze your legs off.
I am not homosexual, Neroter, but I can tell you that when I was a junior in high school and they said girls could wear pants to school, I never wore a dress again. I don't own any dresses or skirts to this day.
You imply that this means that I don't "take care" of myself, and that is wrong. One can be dressy without wearing a dress. Good grooming occurs just as well when wearing pants, too.
But I guess I would still fail to pass your standards because *GASP* I do not wear make-up. Or jewlery. Don't wear high heels, either--saw what they did to the feet of women my mother's age whenI was a kid, and they lost all appeal for me.
The big difference between us, I think, is that while I choose to dress in a manner I personally like, it doesn't bother me when other women choose to wear dresses, cosmetics and high heels.
And that is what Crowfarm was saying.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on July 27, 2004 01:33:19 PM new
oh, okay. I thought you meant*I was attacking her.
and lol on the egg beater thing. You are funny when you want to be!! Now be serious before crow beats you up with her bridle whip -- see, see, you are being sexist again. (Kidding... )
posted on July 27, 2004 01:48:51 PM new
Hey Bunni, you are also not in the limelight like Hillary clinton or any other of those political women. C'mon now..its the age of TV,marketing, etc., etc. Are you going to deny that any of that matters for THEM? I fully understand some women dont like make-up or dresses and I think thats fine for them. It can be alot of work to keep up with all that. But yeah, I also think they are missing something by not getting in touch with a more feminine side of them. That usually when you look better, you feel better. Its only an opinion about the outer packaging bunni, based on my own personal experience. It doesnt mean I think any less of you because you choose not to wear makeup or jewelry. Alot of beauty is on the inside, yes, thats a cliche, but there is truth to that. And there are many people I hold in high esteem who by no means are good-looking. But I thought we were talking about a politican and their presentation? It diverted to general women in the population because alot of women dont try - not because they dont prefer it like maybe you do, but because they dont and then they feel like sh*t and it shows.
posted on July 27, 2004 01:54:29 PM new"Why are the Republicans afraid of Democratic women? First, it was Mrs. Clinton, and now it is Mrs. Kerry. Democrats haven't picked on Mrs. Bush or Mrs. Cheney. Is it because these Democratic ladies are too intelligent, too wealthy and too outspoken?"
I think that it's a hysterical stretch to find something to criticize. With Kerry and Edwards, they've found nothing substantial to attack. They've "tried" attacking the record of a highly decorated Vietnam veteran and that failed only serving to accentuate the miserable failure of the President's and Vice President's military record. They've tried the flip flop issue which also backfired. No one in the history of the country has flip flopped like Bush. Consider the Iraq issue for example. How many flip flops can we count there? When no weapons were found they flipped to a search for nuclear "programs". When no "programs" were discovered the focus shifted to freedom from an evil dictator and need for democracy -- the current failing pursuit while all the time forgetting the pursuit of terrorists. With a little thought, hundreds of such Bush administration flip flops could be listed.
So, now the attack focus is on the appearance or independence of Democratic wives. What a superficial and dumb concern. Hillary could wear a garment made out of a chicken feed sack and outshine all of her detractors. The same could be said of Edward's wife or Kerry's wife.
posted on July 27, 2004 02:03:09 PM new
I think that if a woman politician wants to wear a nice pantsuit instead of a dress, it should not be an issue. You elect a person basedon what they do, not how masculine of feminine they look.
You say that these women should be and dress more "feminine".
Do you criticize or think less of male politicians who do not have large enough muscles, dark enough "5 o'clock shadows" or other masculine physical attributes? If they wear a suit instead of a tuxedo does that really make all that much of a difference to you?
You lament that people don't "dress up" the way they used to. You're right, people are much more casual these days. But even back then, people didn't dress up "the way they used to." Each generation for centuries has been becoming more casual. I'm sure when white powdered wigs (for both men & women) went out of style that many lamented that people didn't dress as well "as they used to." That's just the way it is. When I was growing up, you dressed to the nines when you flew in an airplane. Women had to wear gloves when they went outside--not to mention nylons and girdles. Don't miss the old days one little bit.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on July 27, 2004 02:06:36 PM new
When I was on our city council for 6 years, our council went as a group to Wash. D.C. every March to the National League of Cities meetings for the meetings and to lobby our congressional delegation for our city. I was a member of a national group of women who are on city councils--about 200 of us--and we met during those big meetings for lunch or such.
A speaker one day addressed us, said we should look around at all the politically successful women in the room. Most of us were over 40, many over 50. Half of us had gray hair. The speaker pointed out that politics is one of the fields women can go into even when they aren't Barbie dolls or gorgeous young things. He said that the public trusts and will vote for mature women because the voters think, correctly, that we have more experience and wisdom than the younger ones. He also pointed out that there wasn't a "hair-do" in the whole room! We all had neat and clean hair, cut to be easy to care for and still attractive. Most of us didn't color our hair. Most of us had some basic makeup on--a little mascara, lipstick. And, by the way, more than half of us were wearing pantsuits. None of us were made up with the thick layers of foundation and blusher. We all looked trustworthy, neat, and clean.
And the voters liked us! They liked us! They even voted for us! Voters (maybe not all people, and maybe not some of the men in this thread) actually don't trust women with too much makeup. They want us to be likeable and competent.
Someone very wise said once that the voting public is looking for likeable problem solvers. Likeable isn't enough, problem solving isn't enough--it has to be both.
___________________________________
"Our dilemma is that we hate change and love it at the same time; what we really want is for things to remain the same, but better."
- Sidney J Harris
posted on July 27, 2004 02:09:51 PM new
twelve,oh twelve, oh twelve, somehow I just knew you'd have to weight in on this one!
Maybe I'd rather look at cruise, but I'd rather BE with Tom Goodman (provided of course Cruise is the arrogant pissy character he played in rain man and goodman is like the husband in roseann.)
posted on July 27, 2004 02:25:11 PM new
Well, bunni,...lol. I guess I just dont like pant suits!!!... Even on skinny fashion models they rarely look feminine.
Is it okay with you if *I* dont like pant suits, and say so? Whats so wrong with wanting a woman to look like a woman and not a man? (Note: that I do have pant suits from when I was working ya know...the whole drudge of shaving the legs and all... but I did try to dress them up with jewelry.)
And you know what bunni, many people vote on the whole package. Not just the looks NOR the intellectual. The optimum would be to have both,-- like Edwards???? Sexism. But its there. I am not the only one to comment on that, am I? Kerry and Bush are not so bad looking nor so great looking...but they appeal to people in different ways. You're still buying the whole package.
spelling. out of here. this thread is exhausting me!!
posted on July 27, 2004 02:50:23 PM new
What the heck do looks have to do with anything? As teenagers looks are all important. Some made fun of those who weren't up to the ideal look at the time. However, I though that as adults we were supposed to have outgrown that. Bush doesn't appeal to me and neither does Kerry. So what's that got to do with anything?
The only times you'll catch me in a dress is for my Eastern Stars meetings or a business meeting or a fancy dinner. I wear pants all the time and I have no intention of changing that. I'm not gay and I've been told that I'm not hard to look at. Even in pants, people can tell I'm a woman. What you wear and how you look should not be the judging factors of who you are.
Cheryl
. . .if you still try to defend the infamies and horrors perpetrated by that Antichrist- I really believe he is Antichrist- I will have nothing more to do with you and you are no longer my friend.. . - War and Peace, Tolstoy
posted on July 27, 2004 02:56:48 PM new
Cheryl, but how you keep yourself still says something about you. Even Oprah queen of psychology would admit to that!
posted on July 27, 2004 05:33:05 PM newWhats so wrong with wanting a woman to look like a woman and not a man?
Not a thing. Though I have to tell you, the way I'm built, people rarely mistake me for a man, no matter what I wear.
What I object to is trying to push women into jelly molds in which certain clothes, hairstyles, make-up, etc. are de rigeur and everything else is "not feminine" enough.
____________________
We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
posted on July 27, 2004 06:17:36 PM new
12pole;
I don’t know about you, but I would rather my daughters in all ways ended up like Mother Theresa than Jessica Simpson.
Your view of the social virtues of women is akin too comparing the benefit you can achieve from intellectual or spiritual stimulation to that which you can achieve from your own palm.
Why bother educating women at all, just give’em a mud pack and a g-string.
No wonder you aren’t inclined toward American women; most have been to school.
No wonder the neo-cons gave great $upport to the (keep’em-dumb & at home) Talliban,
posted on July 27, 2004 07:21:14 PM new
Whatcha got there, Twelve, a Sago? Is it burning? Listen to the voices. Have ya heard? We share the vacuum in our heads.
austbounty, this is pretty good, what's your point? I mean it takes all kinds, so maybe Twelve is as inept as Ted Kennedy when it comes to relations with females; he still offers his honest perspective. I value his right field posts as much as logansdad or Yeager, to name a couple of players in left field. It stimulates thinking.
posted on July 27, 2004 07:44:41 PM new
Yes, Yes, parklane, stimulation of the thought process is surely desirable if we are to continue thinking of ourselves as the higher species.
But 12 does not seem to see this characteristic as important in the species and in fact he seems to think it detrimental. Imagine our species advancing intellectually and morally higher if ˝ the gene-pool is better felt dumbed down.
I have no doubt that 12 offers his honest opinion on this issue.
“... the more money a man has the better looking his women will be be... “ 12pole
Can we say that the more money a country has then the dumber and more morally bankrupt it’s good looking kids will be.?
‘it’s harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God…’
posted on July 28, 2004 12:05:18 AM new
This thread reminds me of the old party game where someone makes a statement and after it passes through 20 or 30 people it has chaged dramatically.
I have known a woman for 40 years who I consider very beautiful.
She has had a very interesting, exciting life...from traveling with a water ski show at age 13 to cowboying on a ranch, from running successful businesses to having beautiful kids and a long marriage.
She was widowed several years ago and recently got married to one of TWO handsome, successful men who were pursuing her.
I saw a picture of her wedding....the first time I have ever seen her in a dress... and like everything else about her it was interesting. She wore a white cowgirl dress with white boots and a white Stetson, the tall handsome groom was a "riverboat gambler" and the reception was riotous!
I went horseback riding with her a few times and it was no leisurely "old lady" ride...more like the charge up San Juan hill!
Her hands are hard from building fences and taking care of her horses and not "feminine" at all.
She has never worn makeup or a size 8 anything
HOWEVER,
She has ALWAYS attracted men because of her vitality, brains, free spirit, independence, high moral standards, kindness, her interesting life, her interest in others, her joy in life.....
AND her knowledge that judging people by their looks or clothes is just plain stupid.
And now this pudgy, unmade-up 65 year old and her wild and wooly 73 year old husband are having the time of their lives, happy and in love!!!
SHE won't be a lonely widow even if she's not YOUR version of feminine!!
[ edited by crowfarm on Jul 28, 2004 12:06 AM ]
Women who alter their bodies obviously think/feel it DOES make a difference or they wouldn't go through the expense and pain to look better than they do....naturally.