posted on September 22, 2004 10:08:03 AM new
No stop, we cannot afford a National Health Care program. The 'government' is we, the taxpayers and I certainly don't want to pay for poor health care by having my personal taxes raised at least 50%.
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Anyone who does a search can find out what the Canadian doctors are saying and why they're leaving their Canadian practices and it's NOT money alone. Here's a very typical example of what you'll hear:
from the NYT...less than a year ago...and as the two links I've provided show...it's only getting worse.
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WINDSOR JOURNAL
Doctors Eying the U.S.: Canada Is Sick About It
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS
Published: October 17, 2003
INDSOR, Ontario, Oct. 10 —
Drs. Siva Sriharan and Srinivas Chakravarthi may never get rich staying in this small auto-producing city little more than a stone's throw from downtown Detroit, but they can eat all the hamburgers, ribs and potato skins they want for the rest of their lives at Casey's Bar and Grill. For the next year, they can also get their hair cut free at the Touch of Class beauty salon, and lease a Pontiac Grand Am without charge from a dealer in nearby Essex. Patients have pledged free house repairs and landscaping for their properties, and nurses have teased them with offers of free massages.
All the two doctors have to do is continue practicing medicine in Windsor. Residents started proffering gifts when rumors leaked out of Hôtel-Dieu Grace Hospital a few weeks ago that the two neurosurgeons — of the four serving the city — were toying with moving their practice to the United States.
"It's not about the money," said Dr. Sriharan, a 38-year-old immigrant from Sri Lanka. "We can't do our job properly with operating room time so extremely limited here."
Forced to compete for operating room time with other surgeons, he said that he and his colleague could complete only one or two operations on some days, meaning that patients whose cases were not emergencies could go months or even years before completing necessary treatment.
"Scarce resources are simply not being spent properly," Dr. Sriharan concluded, citing a shortage of nurses and anesthesiologists in the hospital where the *****single microscope available is old and breaking down.*****
The two surgeons are sharply critical of Canada's health care system, which is driven by government-financed insurance for all but increasingly rations service because of various technological and personnel shortages. Both doctors said they were fed up with a two-tier medical system in which those with connections go to the head of the line for surgery.
"It's the system that is pushing us out," said Dr. Chakravarthi, a 53-year-old Indian immigrant.
Many other Canadian doctors feel the lure of the United States these days, particularly if they live close to the border.
The supply of family doctors has increased at a rate lower than population growth in recent years, a problem that is complicated by an aging population and doctors seeking shorter hours. Waiting time for elective surgery is growing across the country, and becoming a hot political issue.
Meanwhile, there are signs that a brain drain of medical talent, particularly specialists to the United States, is becoming a serious problem.
There was a net migration of 49 neurosurgeons from Canada from 1996 to 2002, according to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, a large loss given that there are only 241 neurosurgeons in the country.
"Physicians across Canada are in an advanced stage of burnout due to work conditions," said Dr. Sunil V. Patel, president of the Canadian Medical Association, who attributed much of the problem to technological shortages and the powerlessness doctors feel when patients complain about long waits for treatment. "That burnout causes them to retire early or pull away from certain kinds of work or simply leave."
John O'Kane, 46, the owner of Casey's Bar and Grill, is leading the local crusade to keep the two neurosurgeons in Windsor. His offer of free food is rooted in personal experience; he is convinced that superior surgery performed on him last year by Dr. Sriharan to remove a broken piece of a spinal disk rubbing against a sciatic nerve is the reason he can again play ice hockey and tennis. So far the doctors have not come by for any free food, nor have they responded to any of the other offers that have followed.
"For all I know they are vegetarians," Mr. O'Kane said with a laugh. (In fact, Dr. Chakravarthi is.)
The grass-roots surge of offers and almost daily letters to the editor published in the local newspaper urging the surgeons to stay put has not gone unnoticed by local politicians.
Windsor's mayor, Mike D. Hurst, has speeded up a physician recruitment and retention initiative to combat local shortages of medical manpower. "The popular response is an indication," he said, "that there is pure fear in our community of not having qualified, professional medical expertise available when it's needed."
As for the two surgeons, they say that while they are touched and embarrassed, they do not see how they can continue to work at the hospital under the present conditions.
But are they tempted by all the offers?
"Well," Dr. Sriharan smiled in a mock sigh. "I hear those girls at the beauty salon do very good highlights."
[full article]
Look what the Canadian system has reduced people to....giving 'favors' to doctors to keep them there. And for that they get the priviledge of paying up to 50% of their income for THIS?
posted on September 22, 2004 10:22:31 AM new
But why do they want to come here??
From what i see,our doctors are struggling with their practice-overhead costs and too much medicaid and medicare and no insurance patients.
In fact my doc closed his practice and went to university to do research.
Few doctors want to practice in a small town where they end up being jack of all trades and work relentless hours with no backup.
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on September 22, 2004 10:37:40 AM new
Typical response....and she's the one who kept saying it was the righties that couldn't do anything but insult. She alone has proven that's not true.
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Imo, stop, because even though there are problems here....they're worse with Canada's system. And not much has been done to change it for the better. They're just frustrated.
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helen says: As long as your priviledged old ass is taken care of all's well with the world...right, lindak?
LOL helen - No it is more like my resentment of people like you who COULD afford to purchase insurance and choose not to. I pay my own...I'm not priviledge...and want you and others like you to pay your own - because YOU can afford to pay it....you just don't want to. Not put in place a poor system that's going to cost me more out of my own pocket to pay for yours and I get worse health care for it.
Like I said...that's why those numbers of uninsured are so misleading....they're not only of those who can't afford it....there's many more like you in those figures.
posted on September 22, 2004 10:52:05 AM new
Linda_K, in your overheated google rush to bash Canada you may not have noticed my post on the last page. I asked you about your personal health care experiences in Canada and how it has affected you as you are such an authority on it all.
You know you can pull anything and everything off a google search and you can do it until the cows come home but unless you actually experience health care in Canada it's like talking out your ass. I can also find the stories where a large percentage of US doctors aren't even qualified to practice medicine, dirty hospitals or about the ones that cut off the wrong leg or whatever. Proves absolutely nothing!
stopwhining, from what I understand in the European countries everyone contributes to the health care system and no one goes without care. Switzerland was the highest with 50% of the taxes going to the system but it also had the very best care. Canada only has about 30% I believe. In Europe it's run like a social care and business combined. They have been doing it for years and it seems to work well.
Canada also has more problems in some Provinces than others, there are lots of reasons why things aren't perfect. It's not that governments can't afford national health care systems, it's just that some governments waste so much tax money elsewhere when it could be going to health care.
posted on September 22, 2004 10:54:57 AM new
lindak....
I see no point in contributing to the corrupt insurance industry any more than I have to since I can afford to pay my own medical expenses. So, lindak...I PAY MY OWN. You will never have to pay a penny for my health care and if you're lucky and your presidential candidate wins this election you will never have to pay a penny for poor people or a penny for their children either.
You may say that the numbers are misleading but you know that they are not. From your leader, you've learned how to misrepresent the truth with amazing alacrity.
posted on September 22, 2004 11:00:57 AM new
They also travelled to the Scandinavian countries which have excellent health care systems. You have to remember that these countries are smaller than Canada so things are more centralized. Canada is a huge country with a small population so that makes it more costly too.
posted on September 22, 2004 11:04:35 AM new
kiara - Be clear here. I CHOSE to ignore you post...as we have been down this same path several times. I see no point in rehashing the subject with you personally. I didn't miss it...I ignored it and I disagree with your view. That's why I'm posting MY opinion/views.
I understand according to you and helen we are just supposed to ignore what the Canadian's are saying and doing about their health care system. We are to ingore all their concerns. We are to ignore what the doctors are saying and not admit why they are continuing to leave their practices in Canada. We are to ignore all those, included Canadian researchs, who say the system is in crisis. And believe two posters here.
Well....you can ignore it....many like to actually investigate the subject to find out exactly why the system is in the crisis it is, as I have.
I'm sure that's allowed....even by you and helen. No one has to take my word for anything...they are all adults and if interested can do a search on it themselves....and draw their OWN conclusions...just like I have.
posted on September 22, 2004 11:10:30 AM new
Linda_K, if you would have taken time to read my post you wouldn't look like such an idiot with your last rant. I have not ignored the facts that Canada has problems, I have never ignored that You have decided in your own mind that I have done so.
Your word is taken from a biased google search. My word is taken from my life experience and that of family and friends.
posted on September 22, 2004 11:11:44 AM new
Published on Monday, February 23, 2004 by the Los Angeles Times
In Health, Canada Tops US
Our neighbors to the north live longer and pay less for care. The reasons why are being debated, but some cite the gap between rich and poor in the US
by Judy Foreman
Want a health tip? Move to Canada.
An impressive array of data shows that Canadians live longer, healthier lives than we do. What's more, they pay roughly half as much per capita as we do ($2,163 versus $4,887 in 2001) for the privilege.
Exactly why Canadians fare better is the subject of considerable academic debate. Some policy experts say it's Canada's single-payer, universal health coverage system. Some think it's because our neighbors to the north use fewer illegal drugs and shoot each other less often with guns (though they smoke and drink with gusto, albeit somewhat less than Americans).
Still others think Canadians are healthier because their medical system is tilted more toward primary care doctors and less toward specialists. And some believe it's something more fundamental: a smaller gap between rich and poor.
Perhaps it's all of the above. But there's no arguing the basics.
"By all measures, Canadians' health is better," says Dr. Barbara Starfield, a university distinguished professor at Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions. Canadians "do better on a whole variety of health outcomes," she says, including life expectancy at various ages.
According to a World Health Organization report published in 2003, life expectancy at birth in Canada is 79.8 years, versus 77.3 in the U.S. (Japan's is 81.9.)
"There isn't a single measure in which the U.S. excels in the health arena," says Dr. Stephen Bezruchka, a senior lecturer in the School of Public Health at the University of Washington in Seattle. "We spend half of the world's healthcare bill and we are less healthy than all the other rich countries."
"Fifty-five years ago, we were one of the healthiest countries in the world," Bezruchka continues. "What changed? We have increased the gap between rich and poor. Nothing determines the health of a population [more] than the gap between rich and poor."
Gerald Kominski, associate director of the UCLA Center for Health Policy Research, puts the Canadian comparison this way: "Are they richer? No. Are they doing a better job at the lower end of the income distribution? For lower-income individuals, they are doing a better job."
At a meeting last fall of the American Public Health Assn., Dr. Clyde Hertzman, associate director of the Centre for Health Services and Policy Research at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, analyzed data showing that Canadian women outlive American women by two years and men, by 2 1/2 years.
During the last quarter-century, he says, all income groups in Canada also showed gains in life expectancy. During much the same period in the U.S., death rates widened between America's rich and poor, according to a 2002 study in the International Journal of Epidemiology by American and Australian researchers.
Infant mortality rates also show striking differences between the U.S. and Canada.
To counter the argument that racial differences play a major role, Hertzman compared infant mortality for all Canadians with that for white Americans between 1970 and 1998. The white U.S. infant mortality rate was roughly six deaths per 1,000 babies, compared with slightly more than five for Canadians.
Maternal mortality shows a substantial gap as well. According to the Paris-based Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), a 30-nation think tank, there were 3.4 maternal deaths for every 100,000 births among Canadians, compared with 9.8 deaths per 100,000 Americans.
And more than half of Canadians with severe mental disorders received treatment, compared with little more than a third of Americans, according to the May-June 2003 issue of Health Affairs.
"The summary of the evidence has to be that national health insurance has improved the health of Canadians and is responsible for some of the longer life expectancy," says Dr. Steffie Woolhandler, an associate professor at Harvard Medical School and staunch advocate of a single-payer system.
Of course, some causes of death, such as homicide, wouldn't be much affected by having a single payer system. And the U.S. has "the highest homicide rate of all the rich countries," says Bezruchka.
"Other things might be differences in seat belt usage," adds Robert Blendon, a professor of health policy and political analysis at the Harvard School of Public Health. "We are also disproportionate consumers of illegal drugs, much more than Canada, so it's cultural."
The health of Americans would be better with universal healthcare, he says.
"But there are some things that a single-payer system wouldn't fix — but which would leave one country looking healthier in the statistics."
In some respects, the healthcare system is "the tail on the dog," says Dr. Arnie Epstein, chairman of the department of health policy and medicine at the Harvard School of Public Health.
"It's other aspects of the social fabric of different countries that seem to have a major impact on how long people live," he says.
In the U.S., African Americans and Latinos "face problems of housing, stress and low income, which have nothing to do with a single-payer system." Canada has a large number of Asian immigrants, he says, but they, like Asian immigrants in the U.S., tend to do well on healthcare measures.
The bottom line is that Canada is doing something right, even if "the reasons are not totally understood," says Kominski of UCLA.
posted on September 22, 2004 11:29:16 AM new
Health treatment different between the classes. That's strange. In my city, the two large hospitals can't turn anyone away if they can't afford treatment. And then, we have the Public Health facility where the poor can get the same treament free that I have to pay for. All they have to do is show up at the door. And we'll even send free transportation to get you to the door.
[ edited by etexbill on Sep 22, 2004 11:31 AM ]
posted on September 22, 2004 11:36:24 AM new
i know the govt does help with transportation cost like taking a taxi (there is a limit on how far) and busfare,esp with kids.
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on September 22, 2004 11:57:27 AM new
etexbill - Great points and exactly why I don't buy this all these poor people don't have health care business. It's just not true. They might not have health insurance maybe...but all will and do receive health care.
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Kiara - That's why I don't respond to a lot of your posts. Nothing ever makes you happy. If I respond then you whine and complain that you can't say anything without me commenting on it. If I answer - you accuse me of bashing your country...along with your added snide remarks.
Get this straight...I'll say what I wish...either ignore it or deal with it. I'm not putting my input in to bash your country. I'm part of a discussion about both countries health care issues. And I will participate no matter what complaint-of-the-day you have.
posted on September 22, 2004 12:03:58 PM new
In New Orleans,there is a govt hospital,you go there in the morning at 10 am and you wait and wait and wait,you are lucky if they can see you at 3 pm.
Poor people may get free healthcare,but how many working people can wait all day??
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on September 22, 2004 12:13:31 PM new
stop: The hospitals in my city are Not government hospitals. They are public "not-for-profit" hospitals. There is no wait at these hospitals emergency rooms, first come, first served if it is not life-threatening. There will be a wait at the Public Health Facility, but most of those patients don't or are not able to work.
I traveled to New Orleans for years in my oil industry sales job. I have many friends there and in Baton Rouge. I know how the tax money is wasted in Louisiana. One of my friends father was the State Treasurer for years. My advice to anyone in New Orleans is get out! Sorry.
[ edited by etexbill on Sep 22, 2004 12:15 PM ]
posted on September 22, 2004 12:13:35 PM new
That's a good point, stop. But people in the Canadian system are waiting for months for treatment...not just hours.
I understand it's inconvenient to wait...but we don't have to pay billions and billions of dollars because a few don't like waiting. Heck even those of us with insurance can have to wait sometimes too.
posted on September 22, 2004 12:21:54 PM new
I see Americans almost daily that come for their medical care as they also shop in the local stores and they've been coming here for years to see the doctors and to buy their prescriptions. They have nothing but praise for the system.
Linda_k, I am agreeing that Canada has problems and you are telling me that I am ignoring the fact that Canada has problems. So who is the one trying to start an argument here?
I apologize for having the nerve to relate in a public forum any information that I have gained first-hand based upon the life experience of my family and friends and myself who all live in Canada and also for what I learned during a week-long news report where they compared Canada’s health system and costs to others in Europe who use a combined public and private system of care.
But I realize your far superior knowledge gained from a mere google search should be what's most important in this discussion. I bow to you, oh wise one.
posted on September 22, 2004 12:26:21 PM new"Get this straight...I'll say what I wish...either ignore it or deal with it."
It appears, linda that's exactly what everyone is doing. You are here...always...saying whatever you wish and we either ignore it or deal with it.
In our area...Washington, DC, Maryland and Virginia hospitals accept emergency patients only, sometimes diverting those patients to another hospital if they are unable to pay. There is no free transportation or free medical tests such as stopwhining mentioned at the beginning of this thread. Some very poor people may qualify for Medicaid but those people who are not insured are expected to pay a fee that they usually can't afford.
posted on September 22, 2004 12:36:30 PM newQuit that right now Kiara!
I alone choose who is Queen of this board.. and I have not named LindaK..
Helen is still Queen of the RT.. as she has the highest intellect,(doesn't have to rely on such long c&p's) is well spoken and best of all is not afflicted with the dreaded disease of Tunnel vision..(oh and she has an artistic flare too!)
So if you are going to bow to anyone here, it must be Helen.. or Crow.. of if you insist me...
Seriously, Kiara, I for one enjoy your posts and find you to be one of the most sensible, intelligent people who post here.. so dust off those knees and Never Ever dust the floors with them again! Maggie
Edited to add.. Louisiana has always prided itself in having the most corrupt politicians and continues to do so.. including the famous Huey Long and Governor Edwin Edwards who is presently spending time in prison for taking bribes...just a way of life down here.
[ edited by maggiemuggins on Sep 22, 2004 12:44 PM ]
Thank you for your mention of me...but I'm no queen...Lol Only you and kiara and KD deserve that title!
Actually, I'm finding it sickening to stay here much because of lindak...but I enjoy reading all of your intelligent and thoughtful comments...crowfarm's too! This board used to be fun and interesting. I know that you all can whip it back into shape. I'm just burned out right now but I'll do my best to help.
posted on September 22, 2004 01:02:04 PM new
linda has to do google searches to prove her loony theories......she obviously still lives in her coccoon, no friends,(unless they're EXACTLY like her), no family(unless they're EXACTLY like her).
So, no the poor pathetic thing has no life experience but what she finds in the drudge reports.
Don't ever apologize to her.
Her posts are always preaching hate, nationalism(the greatest war starter ever).
Like Reagan, she'd could start a war with Canada for pete's sake!
posted on September 22, 2004 01:23:01 PM new
correction-that new orleans hospital is not a govt hospital,off hand i cant recall the name-charity hospital?? i think it is a public hospital.
Etexbil.
i lived in New Orleans for many years,yes,the politicians are corrupt,ask Donald Trump and all the other businessmen who want to open the largest land casino in New Orleans.
But there is something about the city which attracts many people -not just the mardi gras and the french quarter or the food,it is the city,something different with the banana trees,the big old mansions,the black and the southern whites,sometimes you look out the window and you see a funeral parade of jazz band and mourners dancing along.
The hot sun and the humidity,the poverty baked into the local culture,for many ,there is really no place to go,no place to escape to.Their taverns sell milk and bread,the moldy odor which the strong air conditioning cannot hide,the beignet and coffee laced with chicory,the poorboy sandwich with fried oyster,catfish etc .
You wonder what somerset maughan see in the city??
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on September 22, 2004 01:48:31 PM new
Stopwhining, I just love New Orleans! The people are so friendly too. Some old guy just struck up a conversation with me in a MacDonalds and at first I thought he was trying to pick me up but then I realized he was too old. He just wanted to talk.
There are a number of writers who were either born in New Orleans or wrote great books and stories there...Lillian Hellman and Truman Capote were born there..Faulkner, Hemingway, Tennessee Williams...Richard Ford, Walker Percy, Kate Chopin...and I've probalby missed a lot.
posted on September 22, 2004 01:54:34 PM new
stop: I phrased that wrong. I do like New Orleans and can see what people see in it, the French Quarter, the homes with tropical courtyards, the great restaurants. That's for ONE visit. I know that many of the people can't leave and wouldn't have anywhere else to go. To me, it is a very depressing city. The slums, the heat and humidity, the spending of tax money on useless items (like the SuperDome, the resident's great-grandchildren will still be paying for that), the poor condition of the streets, the rusty automobiles on jacks that seem to stay alongside the freeways forever. I just always was glad to head for home.
P.S. I did say that I have lots of friends in New Orleans. It's just not the place for me.
[ edited by etexbill on Sep 22, 2004 01:58 PM ]
posted on September 22, 2004 02:02:36 PM new
helen: don't forget Ann Rice (Interview with a Vampire), etc. She lives in New Orleans and loves it from the interviews I've seen.
posted on September 22, 2004 02:21:21 PM new
stop: I think that you are right. It was just named Charity Hospital. Everyone called it "Big Charity". From my understanding it was and is a great hospital. It is called something else now.
