You would deny the children of the poor access to good nutrition and medical care, leaving these helpless children to bear the brunt of Bushco's mismanaged economy. Your total lack of compassion is typical of right wing nuts who once paraded under the lying banner of "compassionate conservatives".
posted on February 18, 2005 11:16:23 AM new"ANY program where the government takes from the taxpayers to pay for benefits of some..or all...is an entitlement program....and by their very nature are socialist."
LoL Linda!!! If that's the case, then the U.S. is the biggest socialist country on the planet!
What is it about sharing some of your wealth with people that aren't so fortunate? Are you serious when you say these people are just lazy and don't want to work? What about the poor, sick, handicapped or aged? What about the people that had money but lost everything they owned to pay for medical bills? What about all the people who lost their jobs to outsourcing? Are these people just lowlifes?
posted on February 18, 2005 11:39:19 AM newI strongly feel the government needs to take a look at why social security is paying out more money that it is taking in before they start to try to "fix" the system.
This is part of the problem. You are not understanding the problem to begin with. First of all they HAVE found out/ARE aware of the problem....too few paying into the system...too many collecting from it.
They identified the problem not the cause of the problem. If they can identify the "cause", then you fix the "cause". Then you will not have to reorganize the way the entire social security system works. Bush's proposal is not fixing the cause of the problem. He is merely shifting the problem around. Wheter the "eggs are all in one basket" or spread out to the people, this will not fix the problem. The government needs to identify why to few are paying into the system and paying out more in benefits.
No one can predict what future events we will be faced with, or not. But this is no different than the risk you [collectively] run with putting your money into your 401k or a 'thrift savings'.
If you remember, social security was created after the stock market crash in the 1920's/30's. So is it logical to develop a plan where people are putting their "retirement money" in an investment plan when nobody knows the future. People can end up loosing all their money like they did in the 20's/30's by allowing the the government to invest it.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- Bush will fix Social Security just like he has fixed Osama Bin Laden and Iraq. Bush can't be trusted to run this country and you want to trust him with your retirement?
posted on February 18, 2005 12:14:10 PM new
logansdad
You are so right. So many people are under the mistaken impression that you will get to pick and choose where to put your money. Ha! That's a good one. You will be appointed an investor who will invest your money for you. You will have little say in the matter. No thanks.
Cheryl
"No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power." ~ P.J. O'Rourke
posted on February 18, 2005 12:34:47 PM new
No helen...once again you are totally incorrect. WRONG!!!
Again...I believe people should be required to care for their own children. Make different choices in order to provide for them...NOT rely on the government to 'make their lives better' when they make stupid choices....like having children when they can't afford the one's they already have.
And to those who truly need assistance....I have stated a million times we don't need the government to be able to help those in need out.
----------------------
KD - That's why I didn't answer in the 'If You Were President - what would you do' thread. I wasn't up to listening to all the screaming at me had I listed what I'd do to set this country back on it's proper course.
We don't need government to 'take care of us' we can learn responsibility and care for ourselves, our own and for those who can't do so for themselves....again...WITHOUT the government being involved.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on February 18, 2005 12:45:45 PM new
logansdad - The government HAS identified the problem AND THE CAUSE.
NOW they're working on solutions....keep up.
and on....
If you remember, social security was created after the stock market crash in the 1920's/30's. So is it logical to develop a plan where people are putting their "retirement money" in an investment plan when nobody knows the future. People can end up loosing all their money like they did in the 20's/30's by allowing the the government to invest it.
Just like they can while investing in ANY non-government investment plan. Life is a risk taking adventure. If you don't want your money to earn anything....then keep it under your mattress and pray your house doesn't burn down. Other than that...there are no guarantees in life...except death and taxes.
Why do you personally want the government to take what??? 12%+ of your money from your paycheck and just keep it...maybe...in the form of IOUs. IOUs that can be taken away at anytime our Congress decides to do so. That's the way it is now....no guarantees it will be there for anyone. So, again, it's no different...the 'risk' you worry about is no greater than leaving this program in the hands of politicans.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on February 18, 2005 12:46:06 PM new
Linda, I stated...You would deny the children of the poor access to good nutrition and medical care, leaving these helpless children to bear the brunt of Bushco's mismanaged economy. Your total lack of compassion is typical of right wing nuts who once paraded under the lying banner of "compassionate conservatives".
Your words in your previous post illustrate that I am absolutely correct in my assesment of your degree of compassion.
Linda, you said.."And to those who truly need assistance....I have stated a million times we don't need the government to be able to help those in need out."
posted on February 18, 2005 12:56:03 PM new
wrong again helen. They would be cared for in a different way....just not by government programs.
To ingore what I've said...and to continue to make false statesments, doesn' make them true. It's just how you choose to 'twist' it to meet your agenda.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on February 18, 2005 01:12:47 PM newThe government HAS identified the problem AND THE CAUSE.
If that is the case Linda, then why is the government paying out more than it is taking in?
Just like they can while investing in ANY non-government investment plan. Life is a risk taking adventure. If you don't want your money to earn anything....then keep it under your mattress and pray your house doesn't burn down. Other than that...there are no guarantees in life...except death and taxes.
I am glad you said that Linda. Now listen to what Bush has said when he keeps pushing his plan to America:
Bush: Here's why the personal accounts are a better deal. Your money will grow, over time, at a greater rate than anything the current system can deliver -- and your account will provide money for retirement over and above the check you will receive from Social Security.
Now who is lying, you or Bush? Oh but I guess you want to belive Bush's investment plan could not have any problems.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- Bush will fix Social Security just like he has fixed Osama Bin Laden and Iraq. Bush can't be trusted to run this country and you want to trust him with your retirement?
posted on February 18, 2005 01:15:40 PM newAnd to those who truly need assistance....I have stated a million times we don't need the government to be able to help those in need out.
I suppose Linda you would be willing to give up your social security benefits that you expect to get since you are so financially secure and do not need the governments hand outs.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- Bush will fix Social Security just like he has fixed Osama Bin Laden and Iraq. Bush can't be trusted to run this country and you want to trust him with your retirement?
posted on February 18, 2005 01:19:13 PM new
Yes, it is America helen.....America as it used to be like before all you lefties started adding more and more government [read nanny] programs.
People survived and became stronger people when they had to stand on their own two feet. When they did something stupid and had to suffer the consequence themselves...they learned by that and didn't keep perpetutating the problem. There used to be shame involved when one had to go on 'charity' or turn to family members for help. Not anymore....now the left has convinced many that the 'government owes us everything we want'. Well....I saw it work differently in my lifetime and I think it well could work again...with some re-training of the socialist mind think.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on February 18, 2005 01:32:51 PM new
logansdad - I'm beginning to think you're just playing games or you're more stupid that I ever gave you credit for being. Which is it?
If that is the case Linda, then why is the government paying out more than it is taking in?
Asked over and over and answered. Why don't YOU appear to be able to comprehend it?
Just like they can while investing in ANY non-government investment plan.
I am glad you said that Linda. Now listen to what Bush has said when he keeps pushing his plan to America Bush: Here's why the personal accounts are a better deal. Your money will grow, over time, at a greater rate than anything the current system can deliver -- and your account will provide money for retirement over and above the check you will receive from Social Security.
Now who is lying, you or Bush?
LOL - there's just no reasoning with you. Nobody's lying...it's been proven by many economists who have studied investments made years and years ago and what returns they've provided over the long term. And it's been proven people would have earn a ton more than they get from SS benefits.
It's like you somehow expect those who want SS to remain as it is are going to come out and publically declare, "We know we promised you that these SS funds would be there for your future...but gee...we're sorry we spent them on other things. So now they're just not there to pay you."
The way the SS program has been dealt with is to continue raising taxes. Well...now the politicans KNOW the people are getting tired of more and more taxation...and they're started to get REAL upset about it. And here we still have dems who want to raise the taxes again. They just don't get it at all. But...that's why they keep losing seats in Congress...and have twice now lost the National elections. People see they don't get it.
Oh but I guess you want to belive Bush's investment plan could not have any problems.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on February 18, 2005 01:43:25 PM new "Yes, it is America helen.....America as it used to be like before all you lefties started adding more and more government [read nanny] programs."
linda...You can't take the country back to the 19th century! The demographics and economy of the country have changed over the past 200 years. This is 21st century America! Wake up, it's a new day!
posted on February 18, 2005 01:57:06 PM new
We can learn much from the past....our social/cultural history. How people survived and what their values were.
It sure wasn't making others take care of them. It was a special PRIDE they had that they were grown up enough to take care of themselves and their own. Something no socialist would ever be able to comprehend nor accept as reality. They'd much prefer more and more government dependence than standing on one's own feet.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on February 18, 2005 02:07:15 PM new
They would be cared for in a different way....just not by government programs.
If one will take a look at the homeless condition in this country at the moment. You will see non-affiliated social programs have yet to solve the problem or serve people.
There is no safeguard against financial ruin from some unforeseen calamity, unless,
perhaps you can fabricate gold out of nothing
or you own some currency plates and a press.
Stupidity, has nothing to do with it. Even those who by standards have made the most prudent financial choices are vulnerable, and might find their self's on the bottom rung of the social economic ladder.
posted on February 18, 2005 02:16:53 PM new
hillbillymo - I'm not saying bad things don't happen to good people.
I question where are these people's support systems? Where are their families, their relatives their friends. Do they have no one except the government to turn to OR do they CHOOSE not to because the government is there to take care of them.
Most who have done any work with the homeless will have learned a lot of them CHOOSE to be homeless, rather than comply with anyone's rules.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on February 18, 2005 02:17:22 PM newAsked over and over and answered. Why don't YOU appear to be able to comprehend it?
I love how you always avoid the question when you don't have proof to answer a question. All anyone has done is identify the problem. No one has shown what is causing the current problem.
Nobody's lying...it's been proven by many economists who have studied investments made years and years ago and what returns they've provided over the long term. And it's been proven people would have earn a ton more than they get from SS benefits.
Just because history has shown this, does not mean it will hold true. I am sure economists said the same thing in the great stock market crash before the great depression.
The way the SS program has been dealt with is to continue raising taxes.
Then the only other way is to cut benefits especially to those that have not contributed into the plan. But now that will anger all the senior citizens of the country.
Bush's plan will not solve this problem either. As I said before all he is doing is taking the money from one central source and splitting it up amongst smaller sources. The funding problems and the pay out problems will remain.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- Bush will fix Social Security just like he has fixed Osama Bin Laden and Iraq. Bush can't be trusted to run this country and you want to trust him with your retirement?
posted on February 18, 2005 02:24:35 PM new
No, logansdad...just because you don't GET IT...doesn't mean I haven't answered.
the problem - A negative flow of money into the SS system in approx. the year 2018.
the cause - Too few paying into the system...too many collecting.
What's not clear about that?
And just where is YOUR answer to why you are against giving people a choice of privatizing a small portion of their OWN accounts....and allowing those who don't wish to ....to opt out...and stay with the system as it currently stands?
I sure haven't seen you answer my questions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on February 18, 2005 02:47:53 PM new
Linda wants to bring back days like this.
During the Great Depression preceding the passage of the Social Security Act, "soup kitchens" provided the only meals some unemployed Americans had. This particular soup kitchen was sponsored by the Chicago gangster Al Capone.
posted on February 18, 2005 03:12:27 PM new
And the 'bleeding heart' ultra-liberal continues on her quest.
LOL helen....as I previously stated it was needed in it's TIME/era...it's not now.
And both my grandparents and my husbands grandparents were young marrieds with children during the depression. They not only survived...they thrived....AND they helped others not so fortunate. Not everyone went through the 'hard times' your picture displays.
Plus...it's not at all relivant with the umemployment rate down to 5.2 rather than at what?? 25% it was then?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on February 18, 2005 04:31:39 PM new
We don't need government to 'take care of us' we can learn responsibility and care for ourselves, our own and for those who can't do so for themselves....again...WITHOUT the government being involved.
Linda if that is the case I guess all those disabled veterans should not be relying on the government for treatment or monthly checks to get by on.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- Bush will fix Social Security just like he has fixed Osama Bin Laden and Iraq. Bush can't be trusted to run this country and you want to trust him with your retirement?
posted on February 18, 2005 04:43:27 PM newAnd just where is YOUR answer to why you are against giving people a choice of privatizing a small portion of their OWN accounts....and allowing those who don't wish to ....to opt out...and stay with the system as it currently stands?
I am not against people having a choice. People can invest in their own personal retirement if they want. This should be in addition what they contribute to social security.
One, I dont trust Bush's plans because I think he is misleading the people just like he mislead the American people on the Iraq War. Second, whether one's social security account is held by the government or "some private" company it not controlled directly by the individual. Would you be able to tell "the government/private company" where you want these funds invested and for how long? Can they be changed at any time?
You can choose this individual account method and still loose your shirt.
Why not take it one step further Linda. Why not keep the government out of it completely and leave your retirement fund up to yourself. You pay nothing to the government and are responsible for your own investment. When you retire, the government owes you nothing. If you don't have the funds to support yourself, then don't go crying to the government for money. If this option is presented to the American people, I doubt many people will be jumping for this.
Lastly it is not a small portion of "their own accounts" as you put. They would be putting a small portion of what they would have contributed to the government. It is called a social security tax - which is paid to the government. So what normally would have gone to the government and put in one large pull is not put into millions of individual pools. It is the same amount of money only spread out instead of grouped together.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- Bush will fix Social Security just like he has fixed Osama Bin Laden and Iraq. Bush can't be trusted to run this country and you want to trust him with your retirement?
posted on February 18, 2005 04:49:47 PM new
the problem - A negative flow of money into the SS system in approx. the year 2018.
the cause - Too few paying into the system...too many collecting.
Not the way I see. You have not identified the cause in your scenario above. You need to ask yourself why are
The problem is: Too few paying into the system...too many collecting.
The cause: more people living longer than in the earlier stages of social security therefore collecting more than they have paid into it, more people being able to collect social security benefits than before.
I don't by the too few people paying into the system. In theory my generation is much larger than your generation, therefore there should be more people paying into the plan, just like there was when were you were young.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- Bush will fix Social Security just like he has fixed Osama Bin Laden and Iraq. Bush can't be trusted to run this country and you want to trust him with your retirement?
posted on February 18, 2005 07:34:02 PM new
crowfarm
Good question!!!!!!!!!
logansdad
You are very right. If there are more people now, there are more people paying into the system. Saying it's going broke for that reason makes no sense. It's going broke because the government keeps borrowing from it to pay for other things. That needs to stop and the money needs to be put back. There was a time in Ohio (I can't recall exactly when) when the state was borrowing from the welfare fund for other things. They got into big trouble over that one. The SS fund should not be allowed to be touched for anything other than what it's meant for. Period.
Cheryl
"No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power." ~ P.J. O'Rourke
posted on February 18, 2005 07:48:48 PM new
cheryl, SS isn't going broke. There is enough in there right now to last until 2050.
There is no crisis, there are fixable problems. However, scaring the American public is the agenda of the Repugs. The financial institutions which pay huge sums to the Republicans will reap the riches of a privatized plan.
It ain't broke so why spend One Trillion dollars to fix it...Yup, that's what bushy said it would take, one trillion.
So where does the one trillion come from..........?????????????????????????
[ edited by crowfarm on Feb 18, 2005 07:52 PM ]
posted on February 18, 2005 07:52:49 PM new
Crowfarm other than your knowledge, which is in doubt, show us where there is enough money coming in to fund SS until 2050.
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