posted on August 31, 2000 07:15:43 PM new
Reading these threads on shipping and seeing how many people justify gouging and even worse run behind that read the description before you bid statement.
Well let's suppose the bidders actually have started doing that. Then we get stuck reading threads about bids being down. Ah hah maybe bids weren't down and have never been down. Maybe the buyers are starting to only spend those bucks with the sellers who are not gouging on the the shipping Now that's food for thought for you gougers and crooks who want to pad your profits with inflated shipping. Maybe your bids go down when buyers actually read your TOS and are taking your advice to bid in other auctions.
I for one hope that is what is happening. In fact maybe I'll save this one for the next thread on bids being down.
posted on August 31, 2000 07:43:40 PM new
<<Maybe the buyers are starting to only spend those bucks with the sellers who are not gouging on the the shipping >>
Which is what a lot of us are saying.
Read the TOS.
Ask any questions.
Pass it by if you don't like it.
posted on August 31, 2000 07:50:01 PM new"Now that's food for thought for you gougers and crooks who want to pad your profits with inflated shipping. Maybe your bids go down when buyers actually read your TOS and are taking your advice to bid in other auctions."
I only hope that bidders who DON'T read my TOS and then complain about a $1 handling fee that is plainly stated in the ad PLEASE DON'T BID on my auctions. I sure don't need their business or aggravation.
Networker, this month I added mandatory U-Pic insurance to my auctions. My cost: $.40 cents. I raised my fees by a dollar. Why? Because that's the price I set for my time. Call it gouging if you want, I don't care. FYI, bids are up nearly 100% since I raised my fees.
I can only hope this means that most bidders appreciate getting a quality product and good service at a low price, and aren't going to #*!@ about every little penny. I'll trade you 10 unreasonable customers for one reasonable one. Better yet, just take 'em. I don't need them.
posted on August 31, 2000 08:21:14 PM new
So far, in the several threads on this subject over the last few days, we have had sellers called dishonest because they use the priority price (ie $3.20) as their fixed shipping charge and that "of course" is "misleading". And we have had sellers called dishonest because they state, in the auction ad, a "fixed shipping charge" which is more than "actual postage" (which the seller never promised).
Now we have a seller who charges a "fixed shipping charge" that is NOT the same as a priority rate (and therefore can't be misleading) and which does seem to come close to the actual priority rate for the item (so wasn't really excessive)and this seller too is said to be gouging.
From the original post, insurance and tracking were OPTIONAL (that means you DON'T have to buy it if you dont' want to!), yet the buyer writes 6 emails wanting to negotiate that OPTIONAL $3. There really was no need to ask the seller to not charge it as he said OPTIONAL...meaning "if you don't want it just send $4.20 for shipping + the bid amount and the item will be sent to you". Why email about the optional items?
The fact that the seller did not respond to the emails has no bearing on the fairness of the shipping charge...it is another matter all together, so it shouldn't enter into this discussion.
My take on this question, after reading three different threads on the same basic theme...the buyers who come to AW complaining about shipping costs want to pay "actual postage only". So, if that is not stated in the auction, the buyer needs to ASK!
posted on August 31, 2000 08:25:42 PM new
Hi sharenv,
This will be my lsat post to this thread, because it looks like it is going to start into name calling, and all these popping up icons are really annoying
but I wanted to answer your question you posed to me.
You asked
<<Am I wrong to interpret ''cost'' to be the actual amount of money paid to mail the item as opposed to the amount of money I am being charged to mail the item, regardless of what the seller is paying? >>
You are not wrong, but again, it is a difference of opinion. I would determine the "cost" to be whatever price the seller sets to get the item to me. To me I see a difference between "actual postage" and "shipping costs".
Again, I want to thank you for responding to questions, so many people that start threads dissappear in the middle of them.
Best of luck selling and buying.
Amy
<<My take on this question, after reading three different threads on the same basic theme...the buyers who come to AW complaining about shipping costs want to pay "actual postage only". So, if that is not stated in the auction, the buyer needs to ASK!>>
Well said!
[ edited by barrelracer on Aug 31, 2000 08:27 PM ]
posted on August 31, 2000 08:36:54 PM newtwinsoft I am not sure what goes into using U-Pic from a time perspective. I assure you I will check it out. But ask yourself this would you knowingly pay a 150% markup on anything? That's what an extra dollar fee for a 40 cent service amounts to in markup. Heck maybe u-pic will follow your example and mark up U-Pic 150% after they get sellers used to using it. What will you do then?
Heck maybe ebay will decide that the taxing on their servers for those piddly auctions is worth more than a quarter and increase it 100% to 50 cents. The could do it and listing would still be a value to the seller. But if they did you guys would lose your minds over it.
But if your handling fee is only a dollar and you have fair shipping rates at cost plus fair markup combined with the dollar. You are not in that gouging group the reply is directed at. The post isn't directed at sellers who are fair and making a fair dollar. It is directed at the gougers who use Priority Mail Boxes, used peanuts from dumpsters, unfairly compute their time to go to the post office, their gas, and the other totally insane excuses to unfairly profit from shipping.
Quality service and trying to equate shipping your packages to $20.00 per hour work is two different things. We got sellers gouging to point of $4.00 per package even after you fairly compute the cost and apply a 100% markup to the packing materials cost. So they make an extra $40.00 per ten packages which with 1 hour to pack' em and 1 hour at the post office equals 20 bucks per hour. Sorry packing boxes and taking them to the post office is not a 20 buck per hour job. I don't give a rats who is doing it. If it was MBE and Pack and Mail couldn't afford to stay in business. The labor cost would kill them. Let alone the fact people wouldn't use them period. And if you have ever used them they have an outrageous markup but it is fair when you figure their cost to be in business.
posted on August 31, 2000 10:07:05 PM new
A seller claiming to have to wait 20 minutes at the PO, and marking up his per item charges is distorting the truth at best, and flat lying at worst, for that seller does not dutifully trot down for his wait in line for each item sold. He waits that time to ship a multitude of separate items at once, and the twenty minute wait should be divided by the number of items, not multiplied by them. So, if he ships 100 items after his twenty minute wait (which I've no doubt is inflated) he has waited one fifth of a minute, or 12 seconds, for each item sent. 200 items is 6 seconds, of course, and so on like that.
To charge a dollar or three for that little wait is gouging the buyer.
posted on September 1, 2000 12:44:18 AM new
Networker wrote, "Sorry packing boxes and taking them to the post office is not a 20 buck per hour job."
As I wrote to Shoshana earlier, that's your interpretation of the job and its worth. When I first began selling my HTML guide on eBay I was working part-time and earning $250 per hour. Was my service worth $250 per hour? Now I'm earning enough to be comfortable but nowhere near that figure. Hey, this is the good ol' USA. Seller sets the price, buyer can accept or refuse. As I wrote before, I see the main issue to be one of disclosure of fees in the description.
My ads state "Winner add $X for postage, handling and insurance" (sometimes packaging) and I think that's enough for the buyer to make an informed decision. So far no one has emailed to ask exactly how much each costs and how much is handling. If I did get an inquiry like that I doubt I'd answer it.
KRS, your figures don't add up. Seller brings 200 packages to the post office counter for processing? I mail 75-100 packages a week, and wait in line 20 minutes usually for just 2-3 packages. The rest I drop off. Your creative mathematics are amusing.
posted on September 1, 2000 01:05:55 AM new
twinsoft - No one except a crooked gouging on shipping ebay seller would even part their lips to say 20 bucks per hour is a fair labor charge to take packages to the post office. Next you'll tell me its fair to add the Final Value Fees back into the auction and mark that up 100%. And your justifcation will be the buyer should have read my TOS before bidding. Heck since we are doing that why not next charge the buyer the $99.95 fee for the featured auction. Hey its in the TOS so its fair or they wouldn't have bid.
Wowsers I know next you gougers hiding behind TOS will charge the buyer because you had to write the TOS, is 25 cents a word fair or do you think you can TOS a buck a word. Since we are padding prices and gouging profits why don't we charge the buyer the interest charged on our credit cards when we don't pay our VISA's for the ebay charges.
Here's another one for the TOS gougers to consider. Why not charge the customer $5.00 extra for the luxury of your leaving feedback for the transaction. Charge $10.00 if they don't leave it for you first. Nothing said here will make gouging right, moral or ethical. Its too bad gougers are so busy chasing those padded profits that they are letting dollars walk out the door.
posted on September 1, 2000 01:23:23 AM new
How many times have you stated, twinsoft, that you only go to the post office on Fridays? Must be dozens of times by now. If they can sing the people who have seen you say so could stand in for the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, there are so many.
So now you want to prorate your time per package using three or four that you wait for and the rest that you just drop off? Are the buyers of the dropped off envelopes charged at the same rate as are the buyers of the wait in line envelopes? By your TOS, they are. So you are in fact charging the bulk of your customers for doing nothing at all beyond a stop at the business window to drop off a box or bag of their purchases.
Seems that the few are getting the better of two lousy deals by virtue of your having actually spent a portion of the time that you so scrupulously charge everyone for on them.
posted on September 1, 2000 02:22:14 AM new
sharenv
What's the value of item got to do with postage -(duh)- nothing!
If it was worth $30 do then think it would be worth paying the postage.
If it was a one carat diamond the postage would be even less- it goes on weight size.
london4
I have a close competitor that offers a money back guarantee on the condition of his goods. When in private he admits to getting much china restored, not disclosing it and views the sale as a 'permanent interest free loan'. IF they 'catch him out' and can prove they didn't do it he apologises for his 'oversight' and gives refund.
How can some of you be surprised to see that sellers are reluctant to disclose 'handling' charges when you obviously begrudge anybody charging them apart from the postman.
Stop being so cheap when shopping for quality and service or stop trying to be a fancy buyer on the net and get yourself a torch and hit the garage sales nice and early.
posted on September 1, 2000 02:36:21 AM new
Networker, I'm beginning to see why you were banned from eBay. Do you make a habit of adressing other members as "crooks" because they disagree with your practices?
posted on September 1, 2000 02:52:39 AM new
KRS, you need to review the topic of this thread.
Yes, I do charge a handling fee for all orders. I do not charge any extra for the few packages that require insurance, customs forms, or other special processing.
And excuse me for being blunt, but someone who sells guns and knives through the mail is in hardly in a position to criticize other sellers' practices.
posted on September 1, 2000 06:05:58 AM new
Twinsoft,
You obviously have no idea of the mechanisms for firearms transfers, or the licensing required, but even if you did it hasn't a thing to do with gouging customers on shipping matters, which you, by your statements of pracices, understand quite well.
To say that you charge no more for items requiring insurance on the one hand while revealing that you charge a dollar for insurance which actually costs some forty cents is pure malarkey, for example. To say that you charge a handling fee TO EACH CUSTOMER while admitting that the portion of the fee which supposedly compensates your time in line at the PO is overblown because you do not so wait for each item sold is out and out thievery and does qulify you to be classed as network67 has done.
posted on September 1, 2000 06:20:01 AM new
How much does that 85 cent insurance cost the post office? I'll bet it's a LOT less than 40 cents. And I'll bet that $1.80 insurance for packages valued higher than $50 also cost the post office a lot less than it charges its customers for it.
It's really simple. If you don't like the terms of the auction, don't bid. If the terms aren't clear to you, don't bid.
That widget will be available again, from a seller with clear who clearly states the shipping cost and doesn't charge extra for anything.
posted on September 1, 2000 07:00:34 AM new
vargas - The gouging that is occurring is past the point of a little charge to provide a service or fill out the insured form at the Post Office. I for am not complaining about a little charge.
I showed in the other thread shipping and handling, how a $6.95 charge for a package that actual postage is $1.50 contains $1.80 in excess, outrageous, almost to the point of being fraud charges. And I even took the time to factor in marking up the packing materials at 100%, I computed the fair milage using the standard method for the trip to the post office. I showed the poster all of the numbers usin his data and we still want to say its okay as long as the TOS says it. By the way if we give a fair markup of 25% on the packing materials in the example I used in the post. We get gouging to the tune of $2.75.
Now since the post office is a self-Insured entity. And they insure an awful lot of packages it takes 60 insured packages to pay one $50.00 claim. So they have a risk pool that may or may not provide a profit on the insurance. And until ebay sellers brought their ship shoddy business practices to the table they didn't act so finicky about paying the claims.
Yes I read the TOS but why is it that so-called busness people and entreprenuers take the time to price their products to earn profits fromtheir sales as opposed to padding shipping to turn a buck. Your ebay business is a retail mail order operation via the internet. Meaning your business is selling stuff and you deliver it via mail. Your profits should come from your sales not your ability to play with words in a TOS to inflate shipping.
posted on September 1, 2000 07:08:22 AM new
Boy oh Boy...some of you are getting really nasty towards eachother. I NEVER and I mean NEVER inflate shipping charges to my customer. I don't care if I stand 20 minutes in line at the post office for one package or ten!!!
I just think "that's life"!!!
I also, WILL NOT pay outrageous shipping fees to a seller. I just purchased a bottle of Clinique nail polish, and the seller wanted $3.10 to send it regular mail. I sell the Clinique "bonus buys" you get in the cute little makeup bag a few times a year with a purchase. I charge either $1 or $1.50 for shipping. I figure actual postage on my postage scale, add .40 for the bubble envelope and that's it. I don't tack on any "waiting time at the post office" or filling out an insurance form if so desired by the buyer.
I honestly believe that sellers who outrageously inflate their shipping/handling, because the have to "make a living", should instead get A REAL JOB.
posted on September 1, 2000 07:24:45 AM new
Networker67-
Read the original post in this thread again.
It was a $1 surcharge over priority postage (as well as OPTIONAL inflated insurance and delivery confirmation charges).
In fact, most of the "inflated charges" complaint posts lately concerned less than $2.00 in charges above and beyond postage.
Seems to me that $1.80 handling charge you had in your TOS would fall into the category of "gouging" judging by the posts that have started these recent threads (even though your handling charge does include $0.35 delivery confirmation).
I don't charge any handling fee for priority mail packages. The price I get for my items more than covers the pennies the peanuts and bubble wrap cost me. I even throw in delivery confirmation for free, since it protects ME, not the buyer.
But if other sellers want to charge a handling fee, that's their decision. It's their business, not mine. They run it the way they choose, not the way I choose.
When I'm bidding, as long as the terms are spelled out in the auction listing, I don't have a problem with extra charges.
I just move on to the next listing until I find one with terms to my liking.
I buy items from RL businesses the same way. I comparison shop until I find the price/terms I can live with.
Why should online purchases be any different?
An informed consumer is a good consumer.
No one really teaches this stuff in school.
You have to take it upon yourself to be informed.
posted on September 1, 2000 07:38:16 AM new
Another thread on "gouging"....okay, I got a package yesterday of 4 china soup bowls. Final bid price, $31. Auction specifed "weight based shipping charges". No mention of "handling in TOS". In addition, the auction specified a "packed weight of 8lbs" with an 18"X18" box. I thought 8 lbs was rather heavy for the 4 bowls, and 18"X18" a rather large box, but in my inquiry to the seller, regarding "handling" she assured me that she only charged $1.25 "handling" and when I received the box, I would know why. Okay, so Priority for 8 lb. box to my zip, plus $1.25 "handling" plus $.85 insurance = $12.20. Seemed awful high, but I figured maybe she doubleboxed, or heck, TRIPLEboxed, and she DID say she was only charging $1.25 "handling". Got the bowls yesterday, the box weighed just under 5 lbs. was 15"X15"X12",(which was oversized for the items, IMHO, but whatever) and was singleboxed. "Actual" postage was $7.35,including the insurance. Gouging? What? So the handling fee was NOT $1.25 as I was told, but $4.85. And yes, I "ASKED" and was "TOLD" what the "handling" fee was, even though it was not specified in the auction description. And yeah, I am *po'd about it, and no, I will never bid on that sellers auctions again.
posted on September 1, 2000 07:41:48 AM new
How sad sharenv
OK, i started eBaying when i was 12. I live in Australia so i have to write all those bloody emails asking whether they send overseas. Leave your children to find out themselves, I've had nice people, people who don't reply, people who insult me coz i'm asking them to send here, people who ignore when they win one of my auctions, people who phone up and complain they're dealing with a young person. Stuff them, go to someone else
Your SON'S(in bold) 2nd email should of been reply or no money!!!
posted on September 1, 2000 07:44:06 AM new
Maybe the title of this thread should have been "Is this seller being deceitful?" and the answer would be a resounding "YES!" Everything that the bidder needs to know to make an informed bid should be included in the TOS. To wait until the EOA notice to inform the buyer that insurance is extra and is marked up over 100% and that tracking is close to 150% markup is just plain wrong.
And no, the buyer shouldn't have to email the seller to find out what his definition of shipping is. Absent any mention of insurance, etc. in TOS, I think it's safe to assume that the shipping price is what the seller is charging to get the item to the buyer in safe condition. Many sellers don't mention in the TOS when they will be mailing the item unless they ship only once or twice a week. If it's not mentioned, I assume they mail within a day or two of receiving payment. I would be livid to receive an EOA stating that the seller mails every third Friday because of the distance to the post office and so would most buyers; or that the seller holds a check 45 days to make sure it clears. These are all practices that belong in the TOS.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why a seller would want to alienate a buyer. Tell the buyer what they need to know, they may not bid, but if you're deceitful, they may not pay and still will not bid again.
posted on September 1, 2000 08:13:13 AM new
vargas - which is why I cut a pasted my standard email to reply to one who questions the charge. If they still feel it is unfair they pay the $3.20 and I eat the charge. But I mostly sold memory modules, Dialogic Voice Boards, and microsoft software. Most of my buyers when they saw it came in a crush proof box, packaged and sealed in electrostatic bags, wrapped in bubble wrap know where the $1.45 extra went.
Gouging to me is this:
Charging for gas to the post office outside of the standard mileage rate of 32 cents a mile. Then furthering this charge to each of the 10 packages they took that day. All the while forgetting that if they went from home to the post office and the post office back home those according to the IRS are commuting miles and don't qualify as business miles anyway. I give the benefit of the doubt when I allow it.
Marking up the insurance, delivery confirmation, packing supplies, etc and so on at 100% or greater.
Marking up filling out forms for insurance, delivery confirmation etc and so in excess of 25 cents a form. If they also do this why are they claiming standing in line at the post office at a labor rate. Filing out the forms is a part of the labor. Sounds like double billing to me.
Charging labor to box the shipment at what amounts to $20.00 per hour. When in reality it takes 1 hour to box 10 shipments and 1 hour at the post office to ship the same 10 shipments. At a fair labor wage for that specific task of $8.50 per hour my box has a combined labor of $1.70 for both tasks. However since a sole-proprietor cannot never legally be an employee of the sole-proprietorship is a labor charge fair for the post office trip since it is part of his choosen business.
I have never said that a seller should lose on shipping or even fanthom losing. I am saying know what is fair, know what time is involved and charge fairly. Above all remember that your business is retail internet mail order and that's where your profits come from.
When I bought on ebay, I bought things like servers very heavy and come in very large boxes. Laptop computers weigh in excess of 9 pounds of more with packing. Printers weigh in excess of 20 pounds and are very sensitive to dropping. So I never encountered to many shipping gougers. But I have met a few trying to charge 50 bucks to ship a laptop. I had a very simple solution, instead of giving them 50 bucks for packing materials and shipping. I sent them 10 bucks for packing materials and a prepaid fedex label on my account with instructions to call fedex to pick it up when he boxed it up. He didn't complain and the next laptop I bought from him included reasonable shipping of $20.00. He didn't get a complaint from me.
All I am asking of ebay sellers is to be fair and professional. In business if your only justification for anything is because its my TOS says so. That seller needs to rethink what they are doing. Is the reasonable expectation of professional fair service too much to expect from everyday people earning a few bucks on the side? I don't think it is. ebaying doesn't take a GED to be successful but by all means be professional and business like about it. If you want a hobby try fishing or something.
posted on September 1, 2000 08:26:59 AM new
Twinsoft wrote, "Networker, this month I added mandatory U-Pic insurance to my auctions. My cost: $.40 cents. I raised my fees by a dollar."
"I mail 75-100 packages a week, and wait in line 20 minutes usually for just 2-3 packages."
I'm still trying to figure out why Twinsoft is standing in line at the PO for twenty minutes with his 2 -3 packages, when he is using U-Pic insurance!
posted on September 1, 2000 08:28:09 AM new
Let's be realistic here.
If you are doing this as a business, then you darn well better figure all of you costs and expenses, which yes, includes time waiting, gas, listing fees final value fees, everything
I still can't understand why bidders think that they are not paying for this in some way.
If it is not in shipping/handling, then you can bet it is in the opening bid. Face it, we are selling to make money, to make a living.
Why all of you have to sit and worry about how much PROFIT we are making is really none of a bidder's business.
We sell to make money. You buy because you want it.
The only way a seller gouges to me is if he states no shipping costs on his TOS and you are foolish enough to bid on and win his item, then find out a ridiculous charge.
Yes, you, as a bidder, are paying my costs, otherwise I would not be in business as a seller.
edited for spelling and I probably still didn't get it right.
[ edited by barrelracer on Sep 1, 2000 08:30 AM ]
posted on September 1, 2000 08:32:34 AM new
london4 said - "Maybe the title of this thread should have been "Is this seller being deceitful?" and the answer would be a resounding "YES!" Everything that the bidder needs to know to make an informed bid should be included in the TOS. To wait until the EOA notice to inform the buyer that insurance is extra and is marked up over 100% and that tracking is close to 150% markup is just plain wrong."
I agree 110%!!!! My take on this is sellers who charge more for insuring their items buy charging more than the cost (of doing so) is to discourage buyers from insuring at all. Maybe (?) they don't want to stand in line to buy the ins/tracking. BUT, my main concern with seller who practice this is what kind of service would I get if the item is damaged/lost....and how much would they charge me to handle the problem? If they'd handle it at all.
KatyD - Been there....done that...and after emailing to ask...it *is* frustrating.
My opinion is that sellers who usually sell the same type of items are more concerned with return customers.
posted on September 1, 2000 09:34:56 AM new
Now, now, KatyD, don't you know that that is your fault?
You should have questioned the answer that you got to your question about shipping and handling. And then made sure that the answer you got the second time was really the answer.
Anything less is just pure irresponsible bidder behavior.
