posted on September 1, 2000 09:48:16 AM newkerryann I think you're right! My fault. I didn't ask the right questions. Mea Culpa. Oh, that extra $$ I paid probably wasn't "handling", it was "granny's" salary to pack the box, and a portion of it was for "granny's rent" for the laundry room corner that her grandchild charges "granny" to box the item. I just should have known to ask about the "granny fee", which is not to be confused with "handling fee". (see Costa's thread)
posted on September 1, 2000 09:55:51 AM new
Networker67
But this thread is about somebody who's charging $4.20 to send a $3.20 priority item.
People are nitpicking about $1! Some perspective is sorely needed here.
Save all the righteous outrage for sellers who truly are gouging -- or adding mandatory charges after the auction ends. Good grief, a lousy BUCK! The insurance and delivery confirmation were OPTIONAL.
We're making mountains out of molehills and making it look like the problem is much worse than it is.
By the standards set by the most recent threads on shipping charges, your $1.45 is gouging -- even though the charges are
perfectly justified.
When somebody comes in here to complain about a $10 hidden "handling charge" they'll get my sympathy and I'll express outrage at the seller.
But not when the $4.20 was clearly stated in the listing and the extra charge was only a buck!
posted on September 1, 2000 09:56:30 AM new
Only 2 brief questions: Could you find this item in your area for the same price(even adding in the shipping)? Even after paying the shipping, do you feel it is STILL a good buy? The reason I love eBay and other auction sites is I get great, hard-to-find stuff at great prices and EVEN after adding shipping, I could not beat the price. I don't expect a seller to lose money in order to sell on an auction site. I don't really care where they decide to put their cost of doing business: Added to the start price, reserve price set including expenses, or in the shipping. Just as long as I get what I want, at a price I consider great, I'm happy. So far, I have NOT been disappointed!
posted on September 1, 2000 10:18:34 AM new"Good grief, a lousy BUCK!"
That's what Pierre said, and dear heaven, what a stink was made about that! Guess it's only relevant depending on WHO has to pay that lousy extra buck, Sellers or Buyers. If Pierre charges it, it's "gouging", if Sellers charge it, it's "business". What hypocracy.
posted on September 1, 2000 10:30:26 AM new
KatyD
You're accusing me of hypocrisy? Shouldn't you reserve that for the individuals who actually raised a stink about the eBay reserve fee? I never said a WORD about it. So just where is the hypocrisy? Please get your facts straight.
I'm a seller AND a buyer. I look at the total price of anything I'm buying, bet it from an online auction, an online retailer or a brick and mortar business. I buy based on the overall price I pay. I've bought the widget with the higher shipping price because the overall price was lower than I would have paid locally or via a big-name online business.
posted on September 1, 2000 10:51:43 AM new
vargas - actually the gouge came from the seller in the original posters complaint marking up the insurance 115% and the delivery confirmation 185%. Making an honest fair buck is one thing. Inflating shipping options to unfair amounts when compared to resources expended to provide them is just outright outrageous.
katyd - I am getting bored with these shipping gouging threads because it is apparent to me that the concept of knowing your actual cost and what is fair profit on what is realistically a part of the business of doing ebay is ungraspable by many ebay sellers. It is very apparent that the pratice of efficent use of resources and capital are ungraspable by most ebay sellers also. So my close to this thread is gouge if you like and if you feel you must. But running the darn business efficently with minimum overhead is the real key to success not padded profits. Those just come with too many headaches.
posted on September 1, 2000 11:03:22 AM new
networker67
Not really. It's optional -- and pretty unlikely that anyone would pay for insurance and delivery confirmation on a $3.00 item ($7.20 with shipping).
posted on September 1, 2000 01:20:10 PM new
I find this fascinating because I've had experiences on both sides of the coin. My lesson was learned early, however. The profile I entered states that I will ship only to US addresses, but on one of my first auctions a gentleman from England inquired how much shipping would cost on one of my items. (Get ready for the stupid part)I had once gotten a ring from an ebay auction from England. I was charged $25.00 for shipping. Terms were not stated in the auction, I accepted this at face value and paid. I was the high bidder, I wanted the ring. Well, without checking actual costs, I quoted my interested party $25.00 shipping on whatever the thing was he was interested in. BOY! Did he rip me a new one! I apologized and did a quick comparison. I learned shipping to England can be between $4.00 and $40.00, depending upon what service you use. Never heard from the guy again. Anyway, I now list all auctions with a flat fee listed, usually $5.00 shipping/insurance. Usually this covers everything, sometimes I pay a little extra out of pocket. To me, this is easier and more reasonable. I don't have to calculate charges for actual or DIM weight, and the bidders know what the deal is up front.
Personally, I've never been (I don't wanna say "cheap" one to haggle over little shipping and handling charges. It is what it is. I once also paid $20.00 to have a scale shipped from Utah to New Jersey. The actual freight was like $11.00, but it was well packed and delivered swiftly. Do I wish it had been cheaper? Sure! Did I complain? No. I agreed to this sale. I don't wanna rehash all the stuff above, but if s&h charges are not stated explicitly in the auction and it is a big deal to you, email the auctioner. If you can't get it nailed down and an extra dollar or so will upset you and drive you to leaving nasty feedback, DON'T BID!!!
As an aside, regarding all the sympathy for the overhead big companies have, thus justifying their exorbitant s&h, don't believe it! I work for a large company (we only charge a modest 10% handling) and I assure you these guys are making their $$$ plus on the product. Big organizations receive BIG discounts from all the carriers. They buy their boxes & materials in bulk (yes, I know USPS gives you free boxes)and as much of the packing as can be is automated. These are the guys that are REALLY gouging you. Do you think it really costs $6.95 to ship you a frisbee from anywhere? But you'll pay it if you want it, right? Try calling Ron Popeil to negotiate shipping on your rotisserie. Sorry for the harangue, but this is a tough question, no simple answers. You can't make everyone happy.
p.s.-My cousin works for buyitnow.com, and she tells me s&h is how they make ALL their money!
posted on September 1, 2000 02:33:55 PM new
In case anyone is interest in how this all ended, I finally received a reply to e-mail #7 from this seller today. Here is an excerpt:
After reviewing your e-mails, I must regrettably deny your request to reduce
the shipping charges.
The following is a breakdown of the $4.20 shipping charge:
*Listing Fees (.25)
*5% of the items closing bid price (.19)
*The actual cost to deliver this item via USPS Priority Mail ($3.20)
*Shipping Materials -Foam peanuts (Actual cost varies, depending on
availability. FYI- 1/4 of a cubic foot of foam peanuts cost $3.00. The box
this item will ship in, uses approximately a quarter of the bag to ensure
safe shipping)
As you can see from the breakdown, I am hardly making a profit.
He was paid within minutes and the transaction is complete (well, it will be when the item is received). Thank you all for your comments. And to those who are ''sick'' of hearing about this topic, please remember that this is how many people learn this business - including me!
posted on September 1, 2000 03:03:41 PM new
Oh my goodness- now the buyer is resposnsible for the listing fees incurred by the seller and their eBay fee?
This is rediculous! Hope that seller has a wake up call soon. Utterly rediculous.
YUCH!
Oh--Oh--Oh--and the best "As you can see I am hardly making profit".
Folks, its the Hearts and Flowers time on the violins---All together now----
posted on September 1, 2000 03:43:39 PM new
Actually, if you think about it, don't most sellers cover the listing and FVF somewhere in the sale of their items.
Some include it as part of the opening bid, some include it in the shipping and handling charge, some split it in both.
A couple posters on threads stated if an item sold for way above what they made, they forfeited the shipping charges altogether.
I guess the only two things that bother me about this case is that the seller needs a little more customer relations sense, and is outrageous in the insurance and del. conformation charges.
Now before everyone starts the flaming retorts, think about it, don't we all cover the fees in some way?
Is $4.20 for shipping priority really that unreasonable?
posted on September 1, 2000 03:57:25 PM new
Barrelracer--principles---principles! Of course let us hope that we sellers have a buffer for undetermined shipping and insurance costs. But for this seller to get so frickin picky about a listing fee of a quarter and FVF--it is outrageous. Just sticks in my craw as so unprofessional---they better wake up soon or look to another source of income rather than on-line. Sorta kinda sorry that Sharenv caved in and bought their whole ball of wax and paid. Oh well. Please oh please sharenv--don't give this seller a positive feedback!! OK?
posted on September 1, 2000 04:15:17 PM new
No, $4.20 for shipping and handling is not unreasonable, although more than I would pay or charge for a video game. I didn't have a problem with the amount, I have a problem with telling the bidder AFTER the auction that insurance and del. conf. will be extra.
I don't consider any charge "unreasonable", obviously the seller doesn't if he's charging it. What I consider unreasonable and possibly fradulent, is not listing charges in TOS. "Shipping is $4.20, item sent priority, insurance and delivery confirmation are an additional $3.00 for a total of $7.20 if you wish insurance and/or DC. The extra $2.80 is my handling fee." or
"Shipping and handling will be $4.20 for priority, add $2.00 for insurance and $1.00 for DC which will increase my handling fee by $1.80."
If the seller would list the charges, it would save the buyer having to email to ask for explanations and the buyer would KNOW what all the charges are for before bidding.
Why would a seller not want to list the breakdown of charges?
posted on September 1, 2000 05:19:22 PM new
Yuck!! Nice breakdown of the $4.20
As a seller I ONLY charge exact shipping plus insurance fees.
I DO NOT add money to pay for my bubble wrap, my trips to the post office, or anything else.
That, to me, is reprehensible...and the main reason why I don't order things through the mail...I resent "handling charges" being added. The cost of doing business is in the price of the item. (and I especially like it when sales tax gets ADDED to the s&h fees).
By the way, I always start my auctions for $1, and I NEVER use a reserve...
I have plenty of repeat customers, and I am sure they are pleased knowing that I would NEVER extort them on spurious "handling" fees.
Actually, just this week I made an error in calculating international shipping...and I PROMPTLY returned the overpayment...the money ISN'T mine in the first place.
I put my trust in the quality of my merchandise (that I will make a reasonable profit over all my costs).
posted on September 1, 2000 06:45:06 PM new
jeanyu - I hadn't even thought about feedback yet, I'm still reeling from his e-mail! It definitely won't be a positive, though.
posted on September 1, 2000 08:05:03 PM new
Uh, hold on a minute. This guy had the $4.20 stated in his TOS BUT he then gives you a breakout of the $4.20 which supposedly includes $.19 for the FVF.
EXCUSE ME..but exactly HOW did he KNOW the auction was going to end at a price which would equate to $.19 in FVF when he listed the $4.20 shipping in his TOS?
Didn't he state in one of his letters that he expected the auction to end much higher?
He's lying, pure & simple. He's now trying to come up with a justification for his $4.20 instead of just saying, "it's what I charge" & leave it at that.
Gosh, guess we should host a pity party because he's "hardly making a profit". Who of us hasn't been in the same situation atleast once? Or worse, sold things at a loss?
barrelracer,
Anyone who wants to stay in this as a business had better be covering their listing & FVF fees somehow. I think most people try to either cover it w/their opening price, or their overall profit margin on items, especially since there's really no way to know the FVF in advance (or atleast we HOPE our sales are so good, there's no way to know it in advance).
posted on September 1, 2000 08:10:41 PM new
Yea Gads!! Now it is wrong for a business to recover it's expenses (listing fee and final value fee)!
What world do some of you live in? It certainly isn't the real one! Any business set up to make a profit (and no, profit is NOT a bad word..nothing unethical or immoral about it) will take into account overhead costs such as the listing fees and FVF and cover it by charging the customer.
Doesn't matter if these costs are part of the asking price of the merchandise or part of the shipping/handling fee...one way or another, the custonmer should be paying for it in the end. If the business doesn't cover these costs one way or another the business risks being unprofitable and eventually goes broke. Simple concept really!
It has been said many times before..to the customer, the only amount that matters is the TOTAL price of the item. Final bid + total shipping and handling. If that amount is more than the customer is willing to pay then the customer should move on, waiting until he finds a deal that is acceptable to him.
If, by some convoluted reasoning process, a buyer thinks that the seller who folds the listing fee and FVF + profit margin into the opening bid is somehow more "honest", more "professional" than the seller who folds it into the "shipping charges", then the buyer should seek out those sellers who covers these costs in the opening bid. If this practice is not addressed in the auction ad, ask!
But the bottom line is...there isn't a bit of REAL difference between a seller who has an opening bid of $4.50+$3.20 shipping for an item (and has $1 of costs built into the opening bid) and the seller who has an opening bid of $3.50+$4.20 for an item (and has $1 of costs built into the shipping). One way or another, the buyer is going to pay the $1. One way or another, the buyer will pay $7.70 for the item if he wins at the opening bid amount.
Any difference is illusionary. But if you want to believe in the illusion that a seller is dishonest or deceptive when he lists these costs in the shipping charge vs the opening bid then go ahead, it is your life afterall..just don't do anything to damage the sellers reputation (such as giving anything other than a glowing positive)...after all, it's not his fault you live in a dream world.
posted on September 1, 2000 08:11:18 PM new
Gouging is gouging, anyway you look at it.
I just had an oh-so-lovely eBay experience with a fellow that charged me a flat rate (as stated in his ad) of $5.00 for shipment of eleven comic books.
A little over _three_ weeks later when I finally received them, the postage charge was only $2.03; BOOKRATE!
I thought, "Hmm, nice $3.00 profit buddy." I sent him a polite email asking for a $2.97 credit to his store/business.
Nope. I got excuses about "customized boxes" and "UPS and US Mail charge for carrier confirmation and pick up" and how orders must be alphabetized & filed etc. Stuff like that...
Oh well, live & learn... at least he replied promptly. I just won't deal with him anymore. Hmm, and I sent payment out the very next day after auction close. He never did give me any feedback.
posted on September 1, 2000 08:26:21 PM new
amy - Nothing wrong with recovering expenses in business. However since your expenses are your cost to be in business they help reduce your taxable income on your earnings from the business. So if sellers want to recover all of their expense why not do it from your auctions. If you recover your FVF, Listing Fees, Gas to post office, stamps, paper for the printer, packing supplies,and so on and so forth. I hope for the sellers sake they are not deducting any expenses from their Schedule C at tax time. And since you condone this bad business practice. Can I assume that since you have passed all the expensable items back to the customer. You won't have a problem with paying taxes on every nickel that came through the door from your ebay operation. Because all your expenses were paid by your customers so Uncle Sam can recover that theft in increased taxes which you will come back and complain about in April.
Sellers in business you have expenses. Expenses are the cost of doing business as such you are allowed to recover all of that money first before the Government taxes you on it. If you have recovered all of it from the customers then you owe taxes on all of it to the government.
The mindset of ebay sellers has throughly convinced me to stop calling this business and call it ebay selling. This insanity will end when the IRS decides to give lesson in Standardly Accepted Business Practices to some ebay sellers via audits. I can't wait for the first thread from the seller who gets audited. I can see that seller now at the audit. Wait that parody will make a great seperate thread. Off to write a comedy skit about the ebay seller at his audit.
posted on September 1, 2000 08:27:16 PM new
Umm--- Amy I am in deep denial. Simply for the fact that shipping and insurance usually are a fixed amount, the high bid is not. I get very very peeved at sellers that have higher than reality terms for shipping and insurance--and throw in handling to boot.
We as sellers sorta kinda know what the shipping cost will be---the auction determines what the final cost of the item will be--so there is a teeney weeney flaw in your theory, But hey--isn't Ebay interesting. Thinking again (whoa--a serious situation)---there are costs for all businesses be they on line or the real world. It would never dawn on me to charge a surcharge for my customers that visit my shop for my rent, insurance, and utilities---these are the costs of doing business and quite a nice deduction at the end of the year.
posted on September 1, 2000 09:51:25 PM newamy, I agree with you that the seller is entitled to recoup any expenses he wants to with a handling charge. What I object to is the seller not listing in his TOS that insurance and del. confirmaton will be an additional charge. The proper place for listing this info is TOS not the EOA notice. Sellers must sometimes forget that not all buyers are "seasoned", some are bidding on their first auction and when they see "Shipping is $4.20", it is not fair or ethical to wait until the auction is over to tell them that if they want insurance, it will be another $2.00.
posted on September 1, 2000 10:29:29 PM new
london4 - Forget ethics, morals, commonly accepted business practices, keeping books, filing taxes, and everything else commonly associated with Business. Haven't you heard this isn't business, this is ebay selling a whole different ball of wax.
When you ebay sell you do whatever you please as long as it is written in your TOS. Heck anything not in your TOS is okay with ebay sellers as long as you put it in the EOA email to the buyer. If the buyer questions unfair handling charges that include ebay listing fee, final value fees, marking up the box and peanuts that came from the dumpster at wal-mart to a whopping $5.00; its all okay as long as you put it in the TOS. Next some ebay seller is going to divide his Federal Income taxes on all of his profits from last year by the number of auctions they held last year and make that part of the handling fee for his sellers this year. But this is ebay selling that's okay to do.
I used to question why Meg and ebay marketing have fought tooth and nail to shed that garage sale image that has made ebay so famous. I see why they are shedding it because ebay selling isn't done in accordance to commonly accepted business practices. As such real business don't want their images smeared by being associated with the practices of ebay sellers.
And as much as I love entreprenuership and seeing people grab a peice fo the American Dream. I am throughly convinced that ebay sellers and their practices might be like cancer and spread over to real business.
I can see going to Wal-mart and instead of the friendly greeter a gigantic billboard at the entrance with wal-marts newly adopted terms of shopping in the store.
I can see going new car shopping and on the showroom floor seeng another billboard with the dealerships TOS. No test drives, No deals, our price is our price and because you have read our TOS on the showroom floor you are now obligated to buy a car whether you want it or not. I can see them marking up the destination charge to deliver the car from the straight invoice from the factory to a handling fee of another 100 or so percent. Then they'll TOS me storage from the day they placed the car on the showroom floor until I bought it.
You guys and your outrageous TOS's and EOA's are going to destroy this medium. I see that now and I see why Meg is working night and day to get rid of you. Because your failure and inability to turn this into real business and not ebay selling is going to lead to some hard fast government regulations. Its bad enough buyers got to worry about the scammers and frauds on web auctions now we have to watch out for so-called honest people gouging on shipping, padding handling fees to include all of their tax deductible expenses. And God only knows what else.
Meg saves us and quickly lose the Garage Sales Image so the ebay sellers can be replaced with Business People who know how to run efficent cost effective operations without excessive profit padding. I am sorry I didn't realize that you are right about them and their attitudes. Please hurry up and get rid of them. I know Peirre is whinning that they helped build us to what we are. But sorry peirre they have failed to adapt and change with the times so its been good, its been fun but time for ebay sellers and garage sale mentality to be run off now and forever.
You know as well as I that those weasels would do better for themseves as businesses (lol) if they'd buy a few gumball machines to place in SpeedyMarts. Much better profits in gumballs than they must realize in ebay if they're forced to nickle and dime their customers with inflated fees, and concern themselves with the recovery of a $.25 listing.
Twenty five cents. They'd do better to stand on a corner, looking as pitiable as they must, with a can or a box for spare change.
are they simply engaging in the practice of fee avoidance and underreporting of income?
It would be oh so attractive a concept to simply charge the seller all costs inflated and sell every item for a penny, eh? The buyer would not know that it was going on, and wouldn't much care if he did.
Why, it would then be the purest of profit unencumbered by those pesky tax obligations, and they could operate at a paper loss, always helpful in April. Only thing, ebay looks for the practice, so some appearances must be maintained by actually selling for more than the listing fee.
posted on September 1, 2000 11:17:06 PM new
London4...I am, and always have been, in complete agreement that all costs to the buyer, either fixed or optional, should be revealed in the TOS so they buyer can make an informed decision BEFORE they bid. Hence my position on the other threads where the amounts were up front, a position that said the seller did not deserve a neg because the buyer assumed the charges were for ACTUAL POSTAGE.
But, I am not going to call a seller who doesn't do this names..such as dishonest, decietful etc. If enough buyers do not like what a seller does then that sellers business will be affected ngatively. The marketplace will work correctly and the seller who is seen to be overcharging will either change his ways or go out of business.
JEANYU..no, no teeny wheeny flaw. a seller also knows approximately what he feels the final bid will be. He can either include the FVF based on the minimum he is willing to accept for the item and anything over that amount will come off the seeling price before he figures his final profit (this is a part selling price/part handling fee split of the overhead), or he can figure the FVF based on his knowledge of where he figures the item will end (he starts at $1 but knows from past experience the item will end at about $100 so he covers the FVF on that $100 in his handling fee).
The only thing I will agree with you on is the fact that since this is an auction and final bids cannot be accurately predicted, the seller has to approximate the FVF. This means that sometimes he may overestimate the FVF and other times underestimate it.
NETWORKER...I'm not sure just what point your trying to make. But to be charitable, I'm going to go on the theory that you are confused about how taxes work, especially in relation to a business.
So, to explain simply...
Net profit=(gross income-business expenses).
IRS taxes are levied on Net Profit
Gross income is all monies coming into the business...in the case of my ebay business, this is all payments made to me by the buyers of my merchandise. Those payments include the bid amount for the item, the shipping charge and any handling I might charge (my handling is built into my "fixed shipping" stated in the auction TOS).
Expenses...this is everything the IRS allows me to deduct. these deductions, taken on the form C, are expenses that were incurred in the process of conducting my business. They include...
Interest...on my charge cards that are used for the business, on my car that is used for business, etc
Utilities..my gas, electricity, telephone (the portion that represents business use and not personal)
Auto expenses...gas, upkeep, insurance, tags, etc
Travel expenses that are related to the business (in Oct I am going on a three day buying trip..my meals, transportation, hotel expenses are deductible)
Office furniture...can be written off in the year purchased.
Computer and computer expenses...including my ISP, my ebud program, my auction assistant program, my quicken program, the disks I use to photo my items, paper for the printer.
My new truck which will be depreciated over a period of time.
The retail value of the merchandise that I donate to charity.
All of these (and probably more which I have forgotten momentarily) are allowable expenses that are deducted from the gross income...and they are entered on form C.
After I enter in my beginning inventory, closing inventory and figure my cost of goods sold and do all the calculations required on form C I come up with a final number. That number is either a positive or negative number...in other words, the final number will show me if i made money (positive number..or PROFIT) or if I lost money (negative number or LOSS). I then enter that number on my 1040 form and either ADD it to my other income for the year (net profit) or I SUBTRACT it from the other income for the year (net loss). From there I finish the 1040, subtracting my personal deductions, itemized personal decuctions etc and find my total income for the year. This income is what the IRS taxes me on.
Nothing about what I have done will cause the IRS to come down on me...nothing is illeagal. Nor is what "I condone" (to quote you) bad business practices.
posted on September 1, 2000 11:30:32 PM new
KRS..What other sellers do is not my concern. Nor is their motivation my concern. I don't care why a seller's fees to the buyer are high...I don't care if they are trying to chisel an extra dime out of the buyer, I don't care if they are not reporting to the IRS. It's none of my damn business.
If their customers are not happy the customer will not return. If their shipping is out of line the buyers won't buy. The person who will suffer is them.They will either change their ways or go out of business. And if they don't do either, then I can only conclude the ir customers are satifsfied. If their customers are satisfied, who the heck am I to tell them they should change just because I don't approve of their business practices and will not conduct my business in the same way.
As for taxes...that is between them and the IRS. If they are cheating they will eventually get caught. But it's not my concern...i'm not the one who will be accessed the fines and penalties..nor am I the one who would go to jail.
I worry about me...I make sure I am conducting my business and my life in an honorable way (as per my definition of honorable).
posted on September 1, 2000 11:54:47 PM new
First, I have to add that standing in line at the PO is not part of my job, it's a part of my service, and I charge for services. For those who don't want that service can pick their item up at my doorstep.
If you buy online chances are you will pay for handling almost always. If you don't want to pay the handling, find a seller who doesn't charge it. If the seller doesn't mention it in the TOS, find another seller. If the seller changes the shipping amount at the EOA email, only pay what it stated in the ad and stick up for yourself. There, and we didn't even have to call the cybercops.
"If you lend someone $20, and never see that person again, it was probably worth it."
